The "Hojo Horde"

[Irinami]

What is the vaunted "Hojo Horde?"

I've encountered Hojo (and others) who have massive armies, but it seems that this is simply because I've held off on conquering them until now, and they haven't been offensive enough to deplete their manpower. Hojo especially I can understand, since they can build castles cheaper and have some rich lands, they are much closer to producing units than everyone else is.

Is that all there is to the Horde?

[Togakure]

In the original Shogun, it seemed that no matter how fast you expanded and developed, at least one faction (Hojo or Uesugi in the east, Shimazu or Mori in the west) would end up producing a huge number of troops and then come barreling across the map in 7-8 full army stacks. Sometimes it was utterly ridiculous. WE:MI apparently addressed the problem because, though enemies can grow large, they're not ridiculous unless you just fiddlefaddle around for years and years.

I don't remember if you could attack via port in the original STW, but that's how I manage it now in MI. Once I've secured my half of the map, I'll send raids to the far side to destroy infrastructure and plunder koku. This keeps the distant dominant clan from growing too big. As Oda I do this on both sides.

[viermaaldomi]

Yes,I remember those hordes well,especially the Hojo horde.I remember I had conquered the left part of the map with the Mori around 1560,when suddenly I saw the Hojo moving into Mino from Shinano with 22000 men,almost all of them ashigaru.For me,this was the only bad part of the original game.As for attacking via ports , yes , you could do that in the original Shogun,but my friends and I decided after a long debate which lasted a couple of weeks (I'm not kidding,we were all big Shogun addicts at the time,of course none of us passed our year) that it couldn't have been the intention of the creators to be able to attack via ports as ports should be a good thing.We all vowed not to use this tactic anymore,as it was a proof of low honour (those were the days!).But now you're saying that it is not some kind of bug and it is intentional if I'm not mistaking?I must say I'm very surprised , it's not as if the enemy is gonna allow you to use your port to invade your lands,right?

[Togakure]

Well, I'm not not going to declare that it's a bug or not a bug. That argument has been debated here often in the past as well. I don't make a habit of attacking via ports unless a faction emerges way out ahead of the others (and me) due to circumstances like a Daimyo dying and the majority of that clan's assets switch loyalty to another, already powerful faction, etc. If they developed as a result of me overindulging in development without balancing that with steady and prudent expansion, then I don't use port raids. In the 1580 Tokugawa campaign for MI, the cyan clan begins with only three provinces, but a nice little contingent of Battlefield Ninja, so I do use those to port raid from the get go (they are only 108 men). This allows the Tokugawa to survive without having to take ridiculous risks until the other clans have slugged it out a bit and the board balances out. Sometimes the ninja end up having to fight or be eliminated against 5-10 times their number because they are cutoff, so I think it's "fair," but that's just me. I think it's up to the player. In SP, how the game is played doesn't affect anyone but the player, so my take is, play the way you enjoy.

From a programming standpoint, being able to attack via port seems like deliberate intent, as it wouldn't be possible without someone actually programming the cability. But I don't know--we'd have to ask one of the developers.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I remember the Uesugi hordes, oh wait those were mine...

When I played as Uesugi the Mori seemed to be the only faction to produce horsdes of units, though the Oda built large armies as well.

[Irinami]

Well, I'm not not going to declare that it's a bug or not a bug.

I am: It isn't a bug.

Reviewing my Shogun: Total War (Warlord Edition) manual, page 40, under the Ports heading. Quoting the final 3 sentences, emphasis mine:

You should also be aware that any province with a port can be invaded from the sea. To do this, you must first infiltrate the province with an Emissary, Ninja, Shinobi, or Geisha. If they survive the turn you may use their inside information to launch an invasion force from your own ports.

[ichi]

Is that all there is to the Horde?

Once as Mori I took out Shimazu and Imagawa, conquered all of the south and when I got to the line that runs from Ise to Wakasa I was met by over 60 stacks of pretty good troops led by some high star gens.

Best game ever. Took everything I had, from ninja to shinobi to fighting a protracted defensive retreat, killing 5 for 1 while losing almost all the way back to Hoki. Finally wore Hojo down and essentially won (barely) because the AI wasn't aggressive, but still that was fun.

ichi

[Gregoshi]

There has got to be some screen shots of the Hojo Horde lying around somewhere. I recall seeing one in which the province was wall-to-wall Hojo pieces - all with red banners (or nearly so).

[Puzz3D]

In original STW, the AI had no limit on the amount of koku it could spend. The AI could deficit spend. This was changed in WE/MI.

[Irinami]

In original STW, the AI had no limit on the amount of koku it could spend. The AI could deficit spend. This was changed in WE/MI.

Ah-hah!! Naughty programmers. Trying to hide an AI's deficiencies by letting it cheat. Unfortunately an all-too-common trick. In their defense, AI programming is just... gah, stupidly more complex than you think. (Apologies if it was just an oversight instead of a trick.)

Thanks Puzz.

No, I mean really ridiculously more complex than you think.

...

I'm serious.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

No wonder the AI always has more money than I can ever seem to get...

Thanks for explaining that.