Help the Horde is Coming!!!

[Pompey the Great]

Hi Generals,

I am in my first game of MTW fighting with the Turks from early on a normal setting.

I have knocked out the Egyptians, easy peasy, Byzantine bit of a struggle,
and some central european smaller powers, I hold Palestine to Hungary on the map. With less than 2000 florins in the Royal Bank of Rum.

I continue to be assailed by massive Spanish Crusader Armies in the South and the French in Central Europe. I keep knocking them over but they keep coming.

This has checked my advance to world domination. I have had some epics battles and have been stretched to the limit, now my empire is contracting, but am holding on. All my money goes on units to keep me from being overrun so I cannot develop any new Tech.

Now the real trouble is the Golden Horde is only a few years away by all accounts. A war on a third front I can do without, Whats gonna happen?

I mainly fight with missile men, Turcoman Horse Archers, some Saracen Spears, Ghulam Cavalry, Ghazi Infantry, Desert Archers & some Mercs, Vikings, Russian Spears, Javlins.

Will the AI be kind to me, it's not so far, it's put up a real fight of it.

What can I expect from the Horde, what sort of an an enemy will I face and what Tips do you have to get the better of them if your playing the Turkish faction?

Thanks in Advance

Cheers

C

[ShadowMagnet]

It all depends on how large your forces are in Georgia and (God forbid) Khazar. In my last Polish campaign Horde's starting forces amounted to app. 5000 troops. Playing Turks, if you can spare around 3000 men to counter them in Georgia, why not give it a shot? There is a fair chance they will go towards Poland, Livonia etc. if you maintain heavy garrisons in Georgia.
If, however you have taken many lands in the east and are spread thin in that part of the map - pack up and retreat to Georgia where you can hope to make a good stand.

Tactically they are not an easy enemy to fight against. Your HA, no matter how good, are not a good answer to the Horde because Mongols are highly mobile on the battlefield and have LOTS of Mongol Warriors (foot archers with very decent melee stats and high discipline albeit no AP attack). Toe to toe any cavalry units you might have are not a smallest patch on Mongol Heavy Cav. I have seen my Boyars backstabbing those guys, while they were being pinned down by AS, and still get creamed. Funny, huh?
I generally advise lots of armoured spears, some fast flanking units to wrap around their forces and some decent valour AP foot skirmishers to shoot anyone in the melee. And have some reserves handy.
Expect heavy casaulties.

In my experience dealing with Mongols is a lot easier when in command of Catholic armies (heavy armour, crossbows, lots of spears). I am by no means great at tactics however so you're welcome to whoop their backsides with Turks in my stead.

Good luck!

[DisruptorX]

Ghazi Infantry! Tie their horses up with spears and then send in your armour piercing. You will take many, MANY losses. Also, horse archers can fight mongel horse archers, but just keep in mind that your men are inferior in that case.

Some of the best battles I had against the mongols were with the turks. And I agree with the above: if you can, retreat back to Turkey.

[PittBull260]

well being constantly attacked by crusades, and now the humounges armies of the golden horder comin....you're fu*ked

[ajaxfetish]

Something I've heard too, is that they tend to come in fewer numbers if there aren't as many troops around the areas they usually appear (always Khazar, sometimes another territory or two nearby). I'm not certain that's accurate, and if not someone can correct me, but you may actually be better off leaving Georgia without any troops, keeping your huge counter armies back in Trebizond or Armenia the turn or so before they arrive and then move back to defend Georgia the next year. You may be able to avoid going to war with them immediately, too. Anyway, have fun!

Lot's of good archers, preferably xbows if you can make them yet for their horse archers and to soften up the others, the best spears that you've got for their heavy cavalry, and the best heavy cavalry you've got for their foot soldiers. I've yet to master Ghazi tactics but if you've got them figured out they could help a lot. I'll assume you haven't teched anywhere up to where you can build Janissaries what with your military vs. tech problems. Pity.

[ichi]

Grab Kiev and hold it with spear-type troops, Saracens backed up by missiles.

I try to hold Georgia using lots of Turcoman HA and Ghulam Cav, followed up with Saracens and Ghazis.

Once they appear they may attack at first in numbers you can handle. Be sure to do a good job of reinforcing and bolstering provinces each year. Don't start a fight with depleted units.

If the Horde starts to break you down you can fall back on the N and fade away into the desert, let the Horde calm down before returning. Raze the buidlings in the provinces before you abandon them for additional income.

Lots of Assassins can reduce the quality of the Horde Generals - since stars translate into morale this can be crucial.

ichi

[Zarax]

Start hiring mercs, any kind of heavy cav will be helpful as well as any halbs/bills you can find.
beware that on certain borders you can fight a bridge battle so that will help immensely when facing their panzers.. err, MHC.
Make a solid spear wall and keep fast, light cav at hand for the pesky HA and ranged inf.
Watch out the final part of the battle, i've got my spears decimated by their pesky naphta trowers while i was chasing some horse archer unit...

Finally, jihad spam can help you immensely if you can spare the money for it... Multiple jihads can give you a quick influx of good level troops that can be extremely useful.

[Ulair]

Following up ajaxfetish's point: the Horde will appear in Khazar (for sure) and neighbouring provinces (if they're occupied).

If you hold Khazar, think about leaving it and engineering a rebellion so it's not yours when the Horde arrive. That way they won't automatically be at war with you.

If you hold Georgia, think about moving all your troops out in 1230. This means (I believe) that the Horde won't appear there. Certainly I've done this a number of times and it's always worked. Then move back in 1231 and you'll see a huge stack of Mongols in Khazar but they'll be neutral, giving you more time to prepare.

They will attack you eventually, though (the GH seems programmed to go after the player faction even when there are easier-picking AI factions closer by ). If you can use the breathing space to tech up to Janissary Heavy Inf in Constantinople, do it. JHI will tear apart the Mongols (as with anything else, in fact...) Otherwise follow the advice above: good spears with as much armour as you can get (Saracens are good), good bows to tackle their HAs at a distance and some shockers - armoured Ghazis or even militia sergeants. A V2 (or V1, armour+1) MS will take out a V0 Mongol Heavy Cav, a better return than Ghazis. Armoured MS and a good general (for morale) in combo with Saracens and bows will give you a fighting chance. Just make sure you have lots in reserve...

Or use the (arguably cheesy) massed assassination strategy against Khan Ogadai; for quite a few years he'll have no heirs so topping him means bye-bye GH threat and hello piles of MHC for hire by your emissaries .

Finally - use the woods, and good luck!


Ulair

[lilljonas]

If you have room as far south as Egypt, there's no need to fear the horde. The horde AI is the worst in the game, and immediately after invasion they tend to sit with several stacks of troops in Khazar and send smaller parts of their army in a random pattern across the steppes, which shouldn't be an important part of your economy (especially if you have the incredibly rich Asia Minor). The main danger is if they, as they do very rarely, decide to move a large amount of troops south. The way to tackle such an expedition is to make sure that your fleet is intact and unhindered by enemies, and then let them south. Once they feel secure, kill their eventual vanguard in Georgia, and then crush them when they have nowhere to retreat to. Wash, rince and repeat: the hordes main disadvantages are their inability to mount a proper invasion plan, and their inability to raise new troops. after losing a couple of thousand troops, they tend to be made up of single stacks randomly placed across the plains, which shouldn't be a threat to you.

If you have lands further west, just mount a defense at a river and bring spears and archers. The mongols won't stand a chance as long as you don't autocalc.

[bretwalda]

High star generals are crucial on your side. If you can survive the first one or maximum 2 attacks in Georgia and or in Kiev and reinforce with adequate troops in the next few turns the Horde can be contained...

Get a mountaintop with reinforcements just a few meters in your back or take a stand at a bridge on a riverside. Lots of archers. Pray that your catapult knocks the Khan dead.

It is not good that your don't have money reserve: your should consider abandoning some provinces, razing buildings and shorten your borders. I the enemy takes the scortched earth and your get loyalist rebellion: even better...

If the Horde does not have time or money or the buildings to build units your should only expect mongol heavy cavalry, mongol horse archers and mongol foot archers. They are deadly enough... Do not face them on a flat plain, no woods unless you want to take very heavy casualties. On the other hand rugged terrain, elevated positions are your friends...

[lilljonas]

When doing the scorched earth version, leaving a tiny garrison (a halfdepleted spear unit or whatever) will grant you a couple of extra years to prepare, plus it will deny the mongols a few florins.

[bretwalda]

That is only true if you leave a fort to be besieged... but the mongols will storm the castle anyway in my experience...

When doing the scorched earth version, leaving a tiny garrison (a halfdepleted spear unit or whatever) will grant you a couple of extra years to prepare, plus it will deny the mongols a few florins.

[Pompey the Great]

Generals,

I don't know whether to to laugh or cry, at least I have a little more time than I thought, if they appear 1230 on the dot?

I am about 1190 so I might have some time to turn things around.

If I can tech up by then and get the invincible Janissaries I might stand a chance.

At what date do these troops become available?


Also the river crossing bridge battle sounds good to make a stand. Which province does this happen in?

To Summarise....

So if I catapult the Khan, assassinate the top generals, desert rebellious Khazar, retreat laying waste scorched earth tactics, use spears and AP troops, and fight from a hugh mountain covered in a dense forest with a massive army I might get lucky. Fingers crossed, the next few years sound tough.

Thanks for the advice here's hoping or read Pittball's scenario.

So it's back to face another Crusader Army do they ever ease up?

Cheers

C

[English assassin]

Also the river crossing bridge battle sounds good to make a stand. Which province does this happen in?

From Kazar into both Kiev and I think Crimea IIRC, but you can find out by getting the province info screen open for Kazar and then putting your cursor in Kiev. The info screem will tell you what terrain the attackers will have and if there is a river.

Depopulating the provinces the horde emerges in does reduce their numbers quite a bit.

If you can hire any pavise troops are mercs they are real horde killers.

[CherryDanish]

I've posted this before, but here I go again.

If you choose the scorched earth strategy, likely the best considering your funds, do as the others have said, raze your infrastructure, pull back all troops in khazar and all bordering provinces leaving only token forces to be besieged. Here's how you make it pricey for the horde.

1) Build up your castle. If you only have a fort, go to a castle. Once you are into stone fortifications, just add ballista towers, catapault towers where possible, ring walls, but do not build to a fortress. The highest lvl fort is only usefull after you've added cannons, which can't happen till gunpowder is discovered.
2) find ways to make the fight LONG. Put a delaying melee force inside the front gate, the smaller the better. If you can get a unit of VGs or Huscarles, especially if they are depleted somewhat, these are the best. Then, drop in like 4-6 catapaults. Put the catapaults in the outter ring and reign death on any horde artillery, then concentrate on concentrations of horde troops at range while your infantry holds them at the gate. 4 units of 10 man catapaults and 1 unit of 60 heavy infantry will make for a long siege and also score you a decent 5-10:1 kill ratio with a good chance of killing the general/king. If you feel like exploiting the AI, take 2 more units of a single guy in each (preferable one being mounted). Put one in the back of the last ring of defense (unmounted) and one in an edge of the map outside the castle (preferably in a patch of woods with the hidden icon up). Leave both of these units (if you can call a single guy on a horse a unit) unengaged. If the horde goes after one, they will not go after the other and the clock will tick. It's cheesy. If the guy outside the castle is mounted, then make the horde chase you to delay. Every second you buy might mean victory.

If you're going to take them on rather than use scorched earth, keep in mind that in bridge fights and forested maps their cavalry is seriously hosed. In the woods your ghazi are completely lethal if you can lure them in. If you enjoy watching things melt, watch MHC melt like butter in a frying pan as they get flanked and mulched in the woods by your ghazis. It gets better if you get access to heavy infantry like Huscarles, JHI or VGs. Archer masses behind a shield wall are effective, but you'll run out of ammo fast and MHC will pummel lesser spear units. The key to any fight with the horde is kill the general and make sure your general doesn't die. The horde isn't hard to beat, but they are a tedious fight and if you screw up, you die.

EDIT: If the horde crosses from Khazar to Georgia, you will get a bridge fight.

[mfberg]

On the money front: Disband mercs, except for the cheap ones (arbalesters, crossbows, seige machinery) they are not worth holding onto when you don't have money. After 1205 (when your Janissaries become available) you can hire cannon and mortars to help take care of any bridge battles, and halbrediers to hold until you have enough JHI built. In your regular armies replace the more expensive upkeep units with cheaper ones who have the same functions.

Cheaper Turkish units
Turcoman foot from Atolia, Turcoman horse from Tripoli, Armenian Heavy Cav from Armenia, are your valor+ troops, saracen infantry are your spears, ghazi are you shock infantry. Bought arbs, cannon, pavise arbs/crossbows, and the occasional bought handgunner are fine, but you will only get a few.

mfberg

[DisruptorX]

Actually, there is another really great anti-horde tactic that hasn't been mentioned yet: forcing them to fight you in a forest. The horde is entirely cavalry and archers, both of which get awful penalties when fighting in the forest. lure them into the forest, then absolutely destroy them with Ghazi Infantry. Normally Ghazi Infantry will take extremely high losses against mongol heavy cav, simply because they are normal infantry, as opposed to spears, but in the forest they are unstoppable.

[ajaxfetish]

Just a sidenote warning. Janissaries aren't quite invincible. Granted, JHI are about the best infantry in the game, but that doesn't make up for experience and command. Green Janissaries with mediocre generals can still get creamed, so be sure to give them a taste of battle or two and lend them to one of your best leaders before using them to take on something as formidable as the full Horde army.

Still, they're fantastic troops and a major shift in Turkish tactical possibilities from light skirmishing troops and complicated maneouvers to direct heavy infantry assaults. They make it a lot easier and require much less finesse than Turcomans, etc.

[Paul Peru]

Horde-preparations is one of my favourite hobbies when I play an eastern faction. (which I nearly always do)

You know when they're coming, so streamline your building queues. Don't bother starting any new buildings that will be ready in 1235, at least in provinces that may be contested.

Make them fight across rivers, in the forest or up steep mountains.
Target generals with armour-piercing projectiles. Arbalesters pick MHC off bridges big time.

Maybe you could change your borders in europe so the French have to cross a river to get to you as well?

If a province is indefensible, raze structures and leave a small garrison (several depleted units as described in this thread) behind.

Get good generals and other valour-enhancers.

You may want to save up money to hire all the mercs available for a decisive battle. Hiring isn't too expensive, and you can disband any survivors afterwards.

If someone crusades for Khazar, let them through

[tigger_on_vrb]

Ok this is a pretty simple point, but one I find makes a BIG difference. You have to make sure Khazar does not have any armour upgrade buildings or every single horde unit arrives with that upgrade. If you own it no problem - assuming you either have built a fortress! If, for example, the Byzantines hold it and you know you will be attacked by the horde (you are poles or huns maybe) then it can be worth taking the province and sacking the armourer and any other troop producing buildings, then withdrawing.

With reference to the making the game harder thread, has anyone ever built full armour upgrade building and faced a gold armoured horde?? How about leaving them a master horse breeder too? Now that would be fun.....

[Productivity]

One thing I've done a few times is tech up to a fortress in Khazar(don't bother iwth anything else), and leave a good garrison there, which can take an assault. Inevitably the horde assaults ASAP and I bleed them as they try to take it. In my experience about half the times they manage to take over the fortress, half the times they fail, but both times they lost nearly all of their men.

[tigger_on_vrb]

The fortress strategy works pretty well - if you have enough cash for that you can afford to fill it with kick-ass troops. If I go this route I fill it with men until it would take less than 3 years to fall under siege. I've found the horde always attacks it on the first turn then.
I usually put a great general and lots of heavily armoured infantry (eg JHI, huscarles etc).
The horde sometimes has decent siege equipment, but defends it poorly, so one unit of medium cavalry to destroy it is sometimes a good idea

[bretwalda]

By the way: how are the siege years calculated?

[mfberg]

Fortress size and Garrison size are included in length of seige calculations, I don't remember if harvest value is included or if famines are included.

mfberg

[Clips]

What can you expect from the horde? A mass amount of numbers, if you are just east of central Europe then you must prepare merely to hold these lands near Russia and prepare for the onslaught, slowly but surely they die out tho.

[BAD]

What can you expect from the horde? A mass amount of numbers, if you are just east of central Europe then you must prepare merely to hold these lands near Russia and prepare for the onslaught, slowly but surely they die out tho.

One game I remember having when they didn't die out. . .

I was playing danes and fighting the French and HRE, just playing for GA really and RPG-ing it. The horde arrives, annihilates the Byzantines, the Russians, the Poles, pushes the Hungarians back to the Adriatic and before I know it they are knocking on Pomerania's doors. Think they got as far as Flanders in the end!!!

Total Mongol pwn4g3!!1!!!!1 never seen it again though. Shame.

[Yoyoma1910]

I like to take my horde preperation in a different direction...

When I know the horde is coming over, first I clean up nice. You know, use some nice shampoo to get my hair smelling good, fresh shave, maybe a touch of collogne. I find the Horde has a weekness for Brute aftershave. I slip into an evening suite, to make the Horde feel special. The Horde always wants to feel special, and you gotta treat the Horde nice.

Then I prepare a nice diner... Shrimp Alfredo with a good white wine, chilled... but not too cold. Strawberries always make a nice dessert. Candles on the table is a must! Mood lighting is everything with the Horde, believe me.

As far as music, I find the Horde has a weekness for good soul. So a little Otis Redding or Marvyn Gaye will usually do the trick, but sometimes I like to break out a Badu albumn to spice things up a bit.

Flowers are a nice touch, and if you have a new piece of art, you can wow the Horde by explaing the deeper meaning behind it, and how it makes you feel.

After that, you just gotta know how to work a little magic and the Horde is Butter in your hands.


Aw-yeah

[Patron]

It seems the general strategy against mongols is to get out of their way and then defeat them in a slow battle of attrition. They will eventually spread their forces out across northern turkey and russia and you can pick them off in a number of large battles, using those armoured arabic spearmen and some lancers to deal with their horse archers.

Either that or you can spend 30 years preparing for one great super battle when they come marching into khazar and training up a lvl 8 general.