Is this racist?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

This thread was closed and I was warned because it was said to be a racist article. I challenge anyone to find this article racist. I can see how it can be missread that way but for the life of me I cant see it as racist.

LINK

It simply asks that we recognize whats happening and write our politicians about it. No where does it blame any race for anything nor does it incite hatred or violence towards anyone. I feel our new mod is a bit over sensitive on this matter. This is the same PC crap that makes it ok to have black or gay pride but not to have white or straight pride. Theres not a racist bone in my body. Personally I prefer Japanese and oriental girls and see nothing wrong and yes I would even encourage inter racial marriages. The sooner we all become one race the better. Its our way of life and democracy I worry about. If you dont think that if the majority of Europeans become Muslims you will be living under very different laws I think you have a surprise in store for you. But thats something I hoped to get to in the thread but never had the chance to express it.

[Byzantine Prince]

I agree with Gawain that our new mod is a little over the top in some respects, although I found your second thread racist, the first one was alright by me.

[Tribesman]

Since it is written by a virulant racist holocaust denier who belongs to a racist political movement and writes for fascist newspapers and websites , then in my opinion I think it fair to call it racist .
No where does it blame any race for anything nor does it incite hatred or violence towards anyone.
Did you bother to read any of the website that you took the linked article from ? or did you assume it was just a campaign agaist "political correctness" ?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Since it is written by a virulant racist holocaust denier who belongs to a racist political movement and writes for fascist newspapers and websites , then in my opinion I think it fair to call it racist .

It maybe fair to call him a racist. However there is nothing in that article that can be pointed out as racist. Also Am I being warned because I posted an article by a racist or because I am being accused of making racist remarks or promoting racisim? If its the former I guess there are a lot of people who may no longer quote based on the opinions of the mods. Take Hitler for example. I in no way put forth any racist ideas.

Did you bother to read any of the website that you took the linked article from ? or did you assume it was just a campaign agaist "political correctness" ?

No and I dont care to read it. I only posted the article for the stats and for opening remarks to start the debate. I have no interest in promoting racisim in any manner. I agree with his premise not his ideals.

[Meneldil]

It is indeed not racist. Saying that white will be a minority in many countries/cities that are historically of white origins is not racist.
The guy might not always be seeing smart things, and he might be wrong on some (or many) points, I don't think he's being racist.
It's just the same 'politicaly correct' crap you can find almost everywhere.
In France, as soon as a black or arab people get insulted, it's called racism, though it is not always racism. When a white people get insulted and is called 'fucking french', 'fucking white' or something like that by a black or an arabian people, weirdly, people don't call that racism. Wonder why ?

[Tribesman]

No and I dont care to read it.
Do you think it is wise to post links to things that you havn't even read ?

[Byzantine Prince]

It is indeed not racist. Saying that white will be a minority in many countries/cities that are historically of white origins is not racist.
The guy might not always be seeing smart things, and he might be wrong on some (or many) points, I don't think he's being racist.
It's just the same 'politicaly correct' crap you can find almost everywhere.
In France, as soon as a black or arab people get insulted, it's called racism, though it is not always racism. When a white people get insulted and is called 'fucking french', 'fucking white' or something like that by a black or an arabian people, weirdly, people don't call that racism. Wonder why ?

I actually kinda know why. I think it's the fact that most white people are raised by the school system to feel ashamed of their past and that black and jewsh people have always been treated really badly, so that preconception exists in every single undelying discussion for the rest of those people's lives. Every time a person in called whity or cracker it's no big deal because we somehow "deserve" it. It's never uttered in words but it's there weather people admit it or not. Call someone a "negro" and it's automatically an offence even though the word just means black in spanish and portoguese. I mean it's ridiculous. I bet you right now the mod is gonna come and raise my warn level just for using the n word. I bet you. Anyone else wanna bet?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Do you think it is wise to post links to things that you havn't even read ?

I read the article. I posted the links in the act of fairness. Not because I support them. I made my opinion perfectly clear.

[Shahed]

To answer your question Gawain:

The resulting thread is racist and the article itself is racist.

[A.Saturnus]

It matters because ethnic minorities in predominantly non-white nations
are almost invariably dispossessed and seriously persecuted. Think of
the poison gas attacks on Kurdish villages in Iraq. Think of the
treatment of Indonesian minorities like the West Papuans and East
Timorese. Think of the dispossession of white farming families in
Zimbabwe. Or the genocide of Tibetans and Uighurs by the Chinese. Or
the white women in Africa gang-raped by blacks who apparently believe
this is a cure for AIDS (see, e.g., The Australian, 9 Feb 1990). If
you
do not do something NOW to stop this happening, you are condemning your
own children and grand-children to be dispossessed, and putting them on
the path to eventual extinction.

It implies that non-white people will, given the chance mistreat any whites they can lay hands on. It is racist hate speech.
Gawain, you can quote who you want to, but if you want to quote a racist, make sure to dissociate yourself from the problematic aspects.

[Adrian II]

I agree with Gawain that our new mod is a little over the top in some respects, although I found your second thread racist, the first one was alright by me.

First of all Gawain is not a racist. He has candid and refreshing views on all kinds of subjects and I have never known him other than as a fine .org member. He doesn't need to dissociate himself from racism. It would be helpful if he dissociated himself from the joke he tried to play on the European members by rubbing their noses in Mr Reinzi's less than palatable theories.

Second, I think that Ser Clegane is doing a fine job. Until now it's been Tadellöser & Wolff. We're actually having fun in the Backroom because he makes us all walk a much tighter rope. I am very happy about the way Ser Clegane put an end to the 'Americans/gays/Christians/Democrats/Republicans/Lefties suck' type of thread.

I remember reading some fine exchanges between Gawain and Ser Clegane in the past and hope to read them again. If possible, please resolve this issue by PM, gentlemen.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Look I can accept the thread being closed although I think its an over reaction, but I still fail to see why Im being warned.

It implies that non-white people will, given the chance mistreat any whites they can lay hands on. It is racist hate speech.

Oh so now if a mod even perseves an implication of violating the rules he can close a thread an issue a warnng?

How does Kurds being gased by Iraqis imply that non-white people will, given the chance mistreat any whites they can lay hands on rr the genocide of Tibetans and Uighurs by the Chinese? Are the Tibtans now considered white people? Are either Kurds and Iraqis white people. If so please inform me which of the two is white? If they both are you have no point.

If possible, please resolve this issue by PM, gentlemen.

Believe me we had many a pm before we came to this.

I ask then that no one may quote Stalin, Hitler or any number of other known racist. Let my try this anaolgy. I see posts that support abortion as promoting murder and genocide. If I were a mod could I then close any thread or warn any member who supports it? I never made one racist remark and in fact started out trying to distance myself from the authors racist views and only used his premise that we are a dwindling race and the stats to show it. If we are to throw out all views that are given by a person who we consider evil and biased, the name Ward Churchill comes to mind here, we then reduce or ability to discuss these matters civily.

[hrvojej]

Even if it's not blatantly racist, IMHO it incites racial intolerance to say at least. With a smack of suprematist attitude too in both closed threads. It doesn't exactly say "go out and create more offspring", now, does it?

edit: removed an unnecessary comment that distracts from my main point

[Gawain of Orkeny]

It doesn't exactly say "go out and create more offspring", now, does it?

Yes it does. In fact thats the whole point. If your white that is. Its not saying to kill or hate other races. The facts are that in many European countries the birth rate cant maintain the indeginous population . Therefore the white population, doesnt indigenous sound so much better? is decreasing in number while others are migrating there and their poulation is growing both by immigration and a much higher birth rate. Thishas nothing to do with racism unless trying to preserve your race is now racist. It also seems to me that only white people can be accussed of this. You people are demonstrating reverse discrimination here. If I told you that the spotted owls were not maintaining their population youd say we have to do something about it. But white people? Forget about it. Another thing. Is there really anything wrong with trying to preserve ones ethinisity? I mean you shouldnt make laws against it but if diversity is good why are you liberals so all fired fast to try and make everyone the same? Like I said Liberals confuse me.

[hrvojej]

But white people? Forget about it.

Because we are the smartest and the strongest, right? And we are just that because we are white, as opposed to them coloreds, right? It doesn't say that the smart people, whatever their skin hue may be, should procreate, does it? It says that we should unite and do what we can against a threat posed to us by those who are different than us, and on the sole basis that they are different from us.

The BS like that OTOH hand doesn't confuse me any more in the slightest.

[barocca]

the caucasian race has been losing ground for over 12,000 years,

(china some 10,000 years BC was inhabitied by a caucasian race, they retreated to japan as the asian races expanded, then they retreated again to the northern islands of japan (where the russians and japanese share some territory) then, finally, they were assimilated)
Called the Ainu by the japanese
even today some Japanese from the northern islands have blue eyes.

The Caucasian Race is going to be extinct(assimilated) eventually,
and that simple fact has been predicted for almost a hundred years,
why worry?
Some of the best people i work with are mixed race and suffer some form of racism from both sides of their heirtage - which is blatantly unfair.
(the best dude to work with in the factory is half yugoslavian/half vietnamese)

while your concern may be a simple truth, the simple fact is we cannot change what is definately going to happen in the next thousand years,
SO, teach your kids NOT to be racist.
AND imagine when whites ARE a minority - our great-grandkids are going to be on the recieving end of all those laws that currently protect ethnic minorities in "caucasian" countries!

Due to lower fertility inherent in being causcasian the caucasian race will eventually be extinct,
just like blonde is a recessive gene and blondes will eventually be bred out of existence.
Nothing we do will change that.

ps - i am blonde and caucasian - i am going to be doubly extinct.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

ecause we are the smartest and the strongest, right? And we are just that because we are white, as opposed to them coloreds, right?

Wrong. Again your looking for racisim where there is none. We are the smartest and strongest but it has nothing to do with our being what and I said as much in the thread. You tell me why we are the strongest nations and have the most advanced technology. Dont put words or ideas in my mouth that have nothing to do with my believes or or what I think. Many of them coloreds are a lot smarter than me. Being white doesnt do you much good but being an American or a German does. Almost every rich and free nation is one that was or is based on christianity and the white race. This is a fact just as is the declining population. Its not racism its the truth. I guess like NY pizza it must be in the water. Its our system of government and morals Im concerend with not the color of ones skin.

[Ser Clegane]

OK, I did not reply to this thread so far because I felt it would be appropriate to first let people take a look at what happened and let them form their own opinion.

I will now try to clarify a few points regarding this whole issue:

1) I made it clear in the warning that Gawain received and in the exchange of PM that followed - I do not consider Gawain to be a racist. If anybody got the impression that Gawain has been accused of being racist I can only repeat that this is not the case and I apologize if this wrong impression has been created.

2) Gawain and myself had indeed an exchange of PMs before the thread here has been started. In the end we simply kind of agreed to disagree on this issue. I, personally, see nothing inappropriate in how Gawain chose to follow up on this issue.

3) I closed Gawain's first thread because I felt the article he used to start the thread was racist and offensive and would rather lead to a discussion about the racist content of the article than to the discussion about the issue Gawain was trying to point out - the course the thread had taken until I closed is in line with this reasoning.

4) Gawain received no warning for the first thread - he received a PM from me on why I closed the thread in which I also pointed out that objective a discussion of immigration policies, integration problems and low birth rates of the native population is not discouraged and that he would be free to start a new thread if he refrained from using racist articles to start the topic.

5) The second thread was, IMO(!), started with an article that not only was at least as racist as the previous one, but that also contained a link to a racist website. Due to this I not only closed this thread as well but also sent a "light" (i.e. without effect to the warning level) to Gawain.

Some comments on statements made in this thread:

No and I dont care to read it. I only posted the article for the stats and for opening remarks to start the debate. I have no interest in promoting racisim in any manner. I agree with his premise not his ideals.

If it was just for the stats, why didn't you start the thread with the Guardian-article Ed Toner's "article" referred? Why do you think it was necessary to include Ed Toner's racist rant?
Especially after your first thread was closed I do not think it would have been asked to much to take a bit more care in selecting an appropriate article to start the discussion.

But thats something I hoped to get to in the thread but never had the chance to express it.

You had the chance to express your opinion on this issue - after all you started this thread, however, you chose to simply post the article.

I ask then that no one may quote Stalin, Hitler or any number of other known racist.

I think most of the people on this board are old and mature enough to understand that posting racist content is not just an yes/no issue, but that the context is crucial to the decision whether a post/thread is appropriate or not.
If somebody decides to start a thread by posting e.g., an anti-semite Hitler-speech and an accompanying link to a Nazi-website and merely says "Hey, I am not a Nazi or anti-semite but this Hitler-guy brings forward some interesting facts and while I not agree with him I think the issue he points at make for a good discussion" I will close such a thread.
If there is a discussion on the history of anti-semitism and somebody quotes Hitler to point out how anti-semitism was propagated in the Third Reich and/or to point out parallels to anti-semitic speeches that might be held today by other people, I would consider this to be in line with what is allowed on this forum.

In the end, what will not happen is that you receive a 500-page, detailed guideline of what is allowed and appropriate and what is not.

Best regards and thanks to all people for their input to this discussion

Ser Clegane

[Voigtkampf]

ps - i am blonde and caucasian - i am going to be doubly extinct.

A mighty fine blonde, if I may add.

[Morat]

Sorry Gawain but this seems pretty straightforward to me. Ser Clegane closed your first thread, told everyone why in the thread and then PMed you to further explain. You then chose to post another thread which you must have known would be at least as inappropriate to Ser Clegane. I think a warning with no points was in fact quite lenient in those circumstances. If you disagreed with the original closing, you should have started this thread at that time rather than openly flouting Ser Clegane's authority with the second one.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

If it was just for the stats, why didn't you start the thread with the Guardian-article Ed Toner's "article" referred? Why do you think it was necessary to include Ed Toner's racist rant?

Because for one I didnt see it as racist and secondly I dont want to be accused of editing the artcle to give a false impression.

Especially after your first thread was closed I do not think it would have been asked to much to take a bit more care in selecting an appropriate article to start the discussion.

I still see nothing wrong with either article.

You had the chance to express your opinion on this issue - after all you started this thread, however, you chose to simply post the article.

My style of posting is to lead people in the direction I want the thread to go and make my points. I never had the chance to develope my arguments. You simply wrote the whole thing off as racist.

You then chose to post another thread which you must have known would be at least as inappropriate to Ser Clegane

Again I saw nothing racist in either article. I simply googled indigenous population of europe declining and those were the first two relevant articles with stats to appear. Call mr naive. I certainly had no intention of snubbing Ser Clegane . Ignoring the mods is far from my style. I made an honest if misguided attempt to find a different link.

If you disagreed with the original closing, you should have started this thread at that time rather than openly flouting Ser Clegane's authority with the second one.

Can you read. Did you not see that me and Ser Clegane exhanged PMs? We talked it over first and I also had the curtiosy to inform him that I would take it to the watch tower. A point I might add that the honorable Ser Clegane agreed to. So dont give me this crap about flouting Ser Clegane's authority .

I think a warning with no points was in fact quite lenient in those circumstances.

I thinkitsd not warrented at all for something that obviously was unintentional and can be argued has no basis in fact. There is no way what I posted can be seen as racism unless you try to make it that way.

If there is a discussion on the history of anti-semitism and somebody quotes Hitler to point out how anti-semitism was propagated in the Third Reich and/or to point out parallels to anti-semitic speeches that might be held today by other people, I would consider this to be in line with what is allowed on this forum.

Way back when I started a thread that the Jews were the cause of all evil. I started it with a speech by Goebbels. I didnt give him credit and chaged a word here or there to make it look like mine. To my astonishment many here agreed with what I wrote. The thread remained open for days until until it was realised that this thread was only started because another member had started a thread that said Christianity was the root of all evil and I mentioned that a certain mod didnt close it so I started that one. The mod in question took offense and then closed both threads. Talk about a a racist thread that was it and it wasnt closed. I guess Jews are still sub human and fair game as were Blacks in the other thread I started to protest at the same time in this case I took a speech of a white supremesist site. Neither thread was closed because of racist comments.

I closed Gawain's first thread because I felt the article he used to start the thread was racist and offensive and would rather lead to a discussion about the racist content of the article than to the discussion about the issue Gawain was trying to point out - the course the thread had taken until I closed is in line with this reasoning.

Again it was those on your side of the isle that drug racisim into the matter. It is they who should have recieved the warning not I. I challenged you all to show me one racist thing I or the article said, So far no one has been able to do so although Sat I believe gave it a nice try.

[Paul Peru]

It implies that non-white people will, given the chance mistreat any whites they can lay hands on. It is racist hate speech.

Agreed!
I think it's obvious that the racist that wrote the article was racistically motivated.
Furthermore, I think that discussing race is distasteful anyways, because race is not a meaningful or even clearly defined criterion when applied to humans, and most people who think it is important use it to direct negative sentiments towards "other races".
It can certainly be fascinating to study different peoples and their history, rise, fall, migrations, customs, excise etc., but I fail to see the importance of having less pigmentation than many others and why it concerns me what country someones ancestors lived in a few generations ago. Once you go there, racism lurks around the next corner.
But this is probably backroom talk

[A.Saturnus]

Way back when I started a thread that the Jews were the cause of all evil. I started it with a speech by Goebbels. I didnt give him credit and chaged a word here or there to make it look like mine. To my astonishment many here agreed with what I wrote. The thread remained open for days until until it was realised that this thread was only started because another member had started a thread that said Christianity was the root of all evil and I mentioned that a certain mod didnt close it so I started that one. The mod in question took offense and then closed both threads. Talk about a a racist thread that was it and it wasnt closed. I guess Jews are still sub human and fair game as were Blacks in the other thread I started to protest at the same time in this case I took a speech of a white supremesist site. Neither thread was closed because of racist comments.

The thread you talk about wasn't closed, it was deleted. So were the others. You and the other involved person got a major warning. I want to ask you not to make statements about the assumed intentions of moderators.

[barocca]

simple rules

1. the patron making a post is responsible for the content

2. if the patron quotes an article the patron is responsible for the content

3. if the patron posts a link the patron is responsible for the content of the site linked

THREAD #1

What do RACE DELETED care about Europe, other than to indulge their fervent desire to see it destroyed (after they have lived off the fat of the land)?

this is racist propoganda
THUS thread #1 was closed

THREAD #2
the link points to a site that promotes racial paranoia
further various articles on that site distinctly blame certain problems on specific races
THUS thread #2 was closed
(FURTHER the post was repetitive, why repeat the same thing twice over?)


Your goal in both threads seems to have been to promote racial paranoia and provoke responses that would have degenerated into racial arguments.

Closing the threads shut down potential trouble before it began,
Retrospective points warnings can still be issued for those posts,
all i have to do is say the word
B.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

The thread you talk about wasn't closed, it was deleted. So were the others. You and the other involved person got a major warning. I want to ask you not to make statements about the assumed intentions of moderators.

Ok Deleted. But it was there for days and the impression that I got was that I was being punished for challenging the descsion of a mod and not for making any racist statements. I was not told that this was why I was being warned . I believe that by the second or third post in each of these threads Jag screamed and rightfully so, for them to be closed.I told the mod in question I had intentionaly made these threads to show how he was wrong in not closing the christain thread.This was when I got in trouble. Its ironic that when I made an intentionaly racist thread it stayed open for days with people asking it be closed but when I make a thread that even hints of racism it gets closed .

This thread was not started or intended to be racist in anyway shape or form and you all know that. This is PC run amok. If you say black people should be proud of their race you all say right on if you say white people should be proud of their race you scream racist. No where do I claim that whites are inherently superior to any other race or to even infer such nonsense. Maybe next time I wont use an article but just post my own thoughts on the matter. Its just a habit I have I guess to use an article to get a thread rolling.

What do RACE DELETED care about Europe, other than to indulge their fervent desire to see it destroyed (after they have lived off the fat of the land)?

Finally someone has come up wuth a decent arguement. Im sorry I didnt see that. That is totally unacceptable . You have my apologies.


But other than that I think we are a litle more adult here than to take offense and discuss the true intent of the thread without closing it. A simple word or warning in the thread itself saying I dont want to see any racist comments here if this thread turns into race bashing it will be closed would have sufficed.

Closing the threads shut down potential trouble before it began,
Retrospective points warnings can still be issued for those posts,
all i have to do is say the word

Of course these are your boards and you make the rules. I accept that and in fact think you and all the mods do a great job. In this case however I think Ser was a bit too quick on the trigger. Its only my opinion of course that counts for nothing in this matter but at least I thank you for the watchtower and the ability to add my two cents for whatever its worth. Its sort of like brining your case before the people. Of course you though are the final judge in these matters and i bow to your authority.

[Tribesman]

In this case however I think Ser was a bit too quick on the trigger.
Mea Culpa Gawain , I reported your link to the mods of the Tavern as soon as I linked to it . I am familiar with the author of the article , which is why I was so surprised that you linked to his website given your usual pro-Israeli stance . The man is a gobshite racist whose prejudices encompass anyone who isn't a "white christian" .
I find it astounding , considering your habit of blaming Liberal /leftist propoganda that you didn't even read the page (let alone the website) that you linked to , it was pure fascist propoganda , well maybe apart from the nice twist when it said Tony Blair was the real Nazi
You said that you wanted to show his statistics that proved the white race is under threat (well it has been diminishing ever since there was a concept of white race) I offered to show statistical evidence that the real threat concerning world domination was in reality Elvis impersonators , statistics will bear this out as a "fact" , actually statistics will show that Elvis impersonators will exceed the planets projected population , so that means that they are not only taking over the world , they are taking over the entire universe

bTW I did say that I thought crap like the website that you linked to should be freely available , but possibly a games forum isn't the appropriate location .

[Gawain of Orkeny]

I find it astounding , considering your habit of blaming Liberal /leftist propoganda that you didn't even read the page (let alone the website) that you linked to , it was pure fascist propoganda , well maybe apart from the nice twist when it said Tony Blair was the real Nazi

Again I went purely by tha article I didnt bother to read the built in links. In that I am giulty. I still maintain that although the article itself was written by a racist. Something I was totally unaware of the articcle itself other than the one piece Barroca pointed out was not racist nor was it my intent to support such a notion in anyway. The only thing Im guilty of is not reading the links. From now on Ill check them before including them in my posts from now on. So then If I hadnt posted the links and editted out that one racist remarkyou would have had no problem?

I doubt it.

In fact the idea that something racist was here or that it even would come up seemed ridiculous at the time as the notion never entered my brain. I guess I am naive.

[hrvojej]

Finally someone has come up wuth a decent arguement. Im sorry I didnt see that.

Please check post No. 3 in the first closed thread. Either you don't read the threads you start, or you ignore only my posts (both of which is fine by me ), but I guess that it could explain to you a bit better some of the reactions after you continued to act as if you didn't know what the others and myself were talking about.

[PanzerJaeger]

Gawain you should know white people arent allowed to talk about racial issues.. We are just supposed to sit back and let "what will eventually happen" - happen.

I got warned for a prediction i made about what will happen if Muslims dont reform their religion. Weve just got to accept some subjects are off limits to discussion, some groups are untouchable.

[Tribesman]

Gawain , if you want to post your own point of view post it , if you want to post someone elses point of view then establish what their point of view really is before you link it to your own .
As I said earlier Do you think it is wise to post links to things that you havn't even read ?
I had no problem with you expressing your views , I do have a problem with racist gobshites , but I do like their views to be out in the open .
Someone said in another thread that you cannot find these sites unless you are looking for them , but they normally come up in the top 10 on a search .
Your quick google search showed that very well .

Your reference to posting a Goebbels speech to test the reaction reminds me of a man that recited a Hitler speech to the "revivalist" digger movement in the 60s , after recieving the raptupous applause he told them the source of his material and told the conference to go "copulate" themselves

Again I went purely by tha article I didnt bother to read the built in links.
Hold up Gawain , I nearly let you go there . The article you posted was one of three on that page by the same author . Also , how can you have missed the links ? they start at the top of the page , one of the first is Auchwitz the hoax , in rather eye catching graphics ??? the one below the article you posted was jewish run government persecution of the KKK ???