Is this racist?

[Adrian II]

I agree with Gawain that our new mod is a little over the top in some respects, although I found your second thread racist, the first one was alright by me.

First of all Gawain is not a racist. He has candid and refreshing views on all kinds of subjects and I have never known him other than as a fine .org member. He doesn't need to dissociate himself from racism. It would be helpful if he dissociated himself from the joke he tried to play on the European members by rubbing their noses in Mr Reinzi's less than palatable theories.

Second, I think that Ser Clegane is doing a fine job. Until now it's been Tadellöser & Wolff. We're actually having fun in the Backroom because he makes us all walk a much tighter rope. I am very happy about the way Ser Clegane put an end to the 'Americans/gays/Christians/Democrats/Republicans/Lefties suck' type of thread.

I remember reading some fine exchanges between Gawain and Ser Clegane in the past and hope to read them again. If possible, please resolve this issue by PM, gentlemen.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Look I can accept the thread being closed although I think its an over reaction, but I still fail to see why Im being warned.

It implies that non-white people will, given the chance mistreat any whites they can lay hands on. It is racist hate speech.

Oh so now if a mod even perseves an implication of violating the rules he can close a thread an issue a warnng?

How does Kurds being gased by Iraqis imply that non-white people will, given the chance mistreat any whites they can lay hands on rr the genocide of Tibetans and Uighurs by the Chinese? Are the Tibtans now considered white people? Are either Kurds and Iraqis white people. If so please inform me which of the two is white? If they both are you have no point.

If possible, please resolve this issue by PM, gentlemen.

Believe me we had many a pm before we came to this.

I ask then that no one may quote Stalin, Hitler or any number of other known racist. Let my try this anaolgy. I see posts that support abortion as promoting murder and genocide. If I were a mod could I then close any thread or warn any member who supports it? I never made one racist remark and in fact started out trying to distance myself from the authors racist views and only used his premise that we are a dwindling race and the stats to show it. If we are to throw out all views that are given by a person who we consider evil and biased, the name Ward Churchill comes to mind here, we then reduce or ability to discuss these matters civily.

[hrvojej]

Even if it's not blatantly racist, IMHO it incites racial intolerance to say at least. With a smack of suprematist attitude too in both closed threads. It doesn't exactly say "go out and create more offspring", now, does it?

edit: removed an unnecessary comment that distracts from my main point

[Gawain of Orkeny]

It doesn't exactly say "go out and create more offspring", now, does it?

Yes it does. In fact thats the whole point. If your white that is. Its not saying to kill or hate other races. The facts are that in many European countries the birth rate cant maintain the indeginous population . Therefore the white population, doesnt indigenous sound so much better? is decreasing in number while others are migrating there and their poulation is growing both by immigration and a much higher birth rate. Thishas nothing to do with racism unless trying to preserve your race is now racist. It also seems to me that only white people can be accussed of this. You people are demonstrating reverse discrimination here. If I told you that the spotted owls were not maintaining their population youd say we have to do something about it. But white people? Forget about it. Another thing. Is there really anything wrong with trying to preserve ones ethinisity? I mean you shouldnt make laws against it but if diversity is good why are you liberals so all fired fast to try and make everyone the same? Like I said Liberals confuse me.

[hrvojej]

But white people? Forget about it.

Because we are the smartest and the strongest, right? And we are just that because we are white, as opposed to them coloreds, right? It doesn't say that the smart people, whatever their skin hue may be, should procreate, does it? It says that we should unite and do what we can against a threat posed to us by those who are different than us, and on the sole basis that they are different from us.

The BS like that OTOH hand doesn't confuse me any more in the slightest.

[barocca]

the caucasian race has been losing ground for over 12,000 years,

(china some 10,000 years BC was inhabitied by a caucasian race, they retreated to japan as the asian races expanded, then they retreated again to the northern islands of japan (where the russians and japanese share some territory) then, finally, they were assimilated)
Called the Ainu by the japanese
even today some Japanese from the northern islands have blue eyes.

The Caucasian Race is going to be extinct(assimilated) eventually,
and that simple fact has been predicted for almost a hundred years,
why worry?
Some of the best people i work with are mixed race and suffer some form of racism from both sides of their heirtage - which is blatantly unfair.
(the best dude to work with in the factory is half yugoslavian/half vietnamese)

while your concern may be a simple truth, the simple fact is we cannot change what is definately going to happen in the next thousand years,
SO, teach your kids NOT to be racist.
AND imagine when whites ARE a minority - our great-grandkids are going to be on the recieving end of all those laws that currently protect ethnic minorities in "caucasian" countries!

Due to lower fertility inherent in being causcasian the caucasian race will eventually be extinct,
just like blonde is a recessive gene and blondes will eventually be bred out of existence.
Nothing we do will change that.

ps - i am blonde and caucasian - i am going to be doubly extinct.

[Voigtkampf]

ps - i am blonde and caucasian - i am going to be doubly extinct.

A mighty fine blonde, if I may add.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

ecause we are the smartest and the strongest, right? And we are just that because we are white, as opposed to them coloreds, right?

Wrong. Again your looking for racisim where there is none. We are the smartest and strongest but it has nothing to do with our being what and I said as much in the thread. You tell me why we are the strongest nations and have the most advanced technology. Dont put words or ideas in my mouth that have nothing to do with my believes or or what I think. Many of them coloreds are a lot smarter than me. Being white doesnt do you much good but being an American or a German does. Almost every rich and free nation is one that was or is based on christianity and the white race. This is a fact just as is the declining population. Its not racism its the truth. I guess like NY pizza it must be in the water. Its our system of government and morals Im concerend with not the color of ones skin.

[Ser Clegane]

OK, I did not reply to this thread so far because I felt it would be appropriate to first let people take a look at what happened and let them form their own opinion.

I will now try to clarify a few points regarding this whole issue:

1) I made it clear in the warning that Gawain received and in the exchange of PM that followed - I do not consider Gawain to be a racist. If anybody got the impression that Gawain has been accused of being racist I can only repeat that this is not the case and I apologize if this wrong impression has been created.

2) Gawain and myself had indeed an exchange of PMs before the thread here has been started. In the end we simply kind of agreed to disagree on this issue. I, personally, see nothing inappropriate in how Gawain chose to follow up on this issue.

3) I closed Gawain's first thread because I felt the article he used to start the thread was racist and offensive and would rather lead to a discussion about the racist content of the article than to the discussion about the issue Gawain was trying to point out - the course the thread had taken until I closed is in line with this reasoning.

4) Gawain received no warning for the first thread - he received a PM from me on why I closed the thread in which I also pointed out that objective a discussion of immigration policies, integration problems and low birth rates of the native population is not discouraged and that he would be free to start a new thread if he refrained from using racist articles to start the topic.

5) The second thread was, IMO(!), started with an article that not only was at least as racist as the previous one, but that also contained a link to a racist website. Due to this I not only closed this thread as well but also sent a "light" (i.e. without effect to the warning level) to Gawain.

Some comments on statements made in this thread:

No and I dont care to read it. I only posted the article for the stats and for opening remarks to start the debate. I have no interest in promoting racisim in any manner. I agree with his premise not his ideals.

If it was just for the stats, why didn't you start the thread with the Guardian-article Ed Toner's "article" referred? Why do you think it was necessary to include Ed Toner's racist rant?
Especially after your first thread was closed I do not think it would have been asked to much to take a bit more care in selecting an appropriate article to start the discussion.

But thats something I hoped to get to in the thread but never had the chance to express it.

You had the chance to express your opinion on this issue - after all you started this thread, however, you chose to simply post the article.

I ask then that no one may quote Stalin, Hitler or any number of other known racist.

I think most of the people on this board are old and mature enough to understand that posting racist content is not just an yes/no issue, but that the context is crucial to the decision whether a post/thread is appropriate or not.
If somebody decides to start a thread by posting e.g., an anti-semite Hitler-speech and an accompanying link to a Nazi-website and merely says "Hey, I am not a Nazi or anti-semite but this Hitler-guy brings forward some interesting facts and while I not agree with him I think the issue he points at make for a good discussion" I will close such a thread.
If there is a discussion on the history of anti-semitism and somebody quotes Hitler to point out how anti-semitism was propagated in the Third Reich and/or to point out parallels to anti-semitic speeches that might be held today by other people, I would consider this to be in line with what is allowed on this forum.

In the end, what will not happen is that you receive a 500-page, detailed guideline of what is allowed and appropriate and what is not.

Best regards and thanks to all people for their input to this discussion

Ser Clegane