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Thread: Investigation of unit retraining

  1. #31

    Default Re: Investigation of unit retraining

    In my experience, retrained units usually keep their experience level, bot not always.
    The general's bodyguard usually drops in experience over time (when the losses get replaced automaticly.)

    I do not agree with keeping the chirurgeons etc out of your retinue: It's the front soldiers who get the most experience (kills), and thus the healed soldiers are likely to boost the experience of the group, not lower it.

  2. #32
    Bibliophilic Member Atilius's Avatar
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    Post Re: Investigation of unit retraining

    I've seen units lose experience between the end of the battle and the return to the campaign map, but this seems rare. I can't be certain, but it seems plausible that this is a result of healing.

    Still, I don't think it's wise to avoid healing enhancing ancillaries. While the average experience of the unit is lower, you haven't lost anything, and you have men you wouldn't have otherwise. To bring the unit back up to full strength, you end up paying more for the higher experience level than you would if you had more healing. Given the fact that it's unusual for healing to have any effect on overall experience, don't see that it's worth passing up healing when you can get it.
    Last edited by Atilius; 02-17-2007 at 19:10.
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  3. #33

    Default Re: Investigation of unit retraining

    But given that retraining is so cheap,and gives you experienced troops, then why bother with healers? There's no additional cost, but they give you green troops. Seems like it should be the other way around.

  4. #34
    RTW V1.5 & BI V1.6 Member Severous's Avatar
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    Default Re: Investigation of unit retraining

    Hi

    I did some retraining testing during my first Imperial Campaign

    RTW V1.5 M/M (No Mods)

    I posted it in the Total War forum but its going to be lost in a matter of days due to the volume of traffic in that unstructured site. Didnt want to loose all that work so thought I would link it here in this forum.

    http://p223.ezboard.com/fshoguntotal...ID=33265.topic

    http://p223.ezboard.com/fshoguntotal...ID=33188.topic

    My conclusions:
    - Soldiers carry their own experience and weapon/armour upgrades
    - Unit exp is the average of its soldiers exp
    - Unit card displays lowest weapon/armor upgrade present in the unit.
    - Retraining adds replacements with weapon upgrades even if city couldnt produce that particular quality of weapon
    - Replacements can be green (0 exp) or at the same as other troops in the unit.
    - retraining costs reduce (per man) as the number of men increases. Its expensive to retrain one or two men.

    My practice for maximum experience gain.
    - merge depleted units so that the unit that needs retraining has the highest possible experience.
    - Add it to the training queue.
    - Just before end of turn, remove it from the retraining queue and add it back again.


    EDIT: I am afraid the links above no longer work. The detailed research posted into the other forum has been lost. I posted some more comments in the other forum in response to another question. The following says much the same as I said above but maybe its clearer.
    ---------------
    Quote:
    I proved that retraining can have two outcomes:
    - Replacements come in with 0 experience
    - Replacements come in with average of exiting men (lets say exp = 2)

    In your 80 man 2exp unit there are an estimated 160 experience points among your 80 men. If 40 more arrive with 0 exp you now have 120 men with 160 exp between them. Average is probobly now 1exp.

    Yet if the second outcome occurs you would gain 40men each with 2exp..thus now have a unit of 120 men with 240exp....ie 2exp unit still.

    I can ensure the second outcome each time. Just before end of turn, clear the training queue, then put the units back in training again. Doesnt make sense but it works.

    Merge troops. If you have two equite units in a stack just click and hold, drag the card of one onto the other, and release. The units merge. You dont change the underlying experience of the men but depending upon which unit gets the best men you can sometimes see experience change on the unit cards.

    By mastering these two techniques you can develop well skilled troops quite quickly. Just merge so the units that enter training are highly experienced then ensure the replacements also come in at that skill.

    Hope this helps.
    End Quote
    -------------------

    Good luck.
    Last edited by Severous; 02-28-2006 at 21:00.
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  5. #35
    Member Member LuckyDog Trojan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Investigation of unit retraining

    My question is not directly related to unit re-training costs - but - it does have to do with costs related to unit upkeep. If this question belongs elsewhere, I apologize.

    Having said the above... ...

    Following a battle, does a reduced number of soldiers in a unit have any impact on the upkeep cost that is routinely extracted each turn?

    For example: I purchase a 40-man Hastati unit that has an upkeep cost of D150 per turn. This unit enters battle and comes away with 20 men left alive. Does this reduced size unit still cost me D150 per turn or is it somehow pro-rated down? (I recognize that if I retrain/restore the unit back to full strength that I can expect a full upkeep cost each turn).

    To any and all - your comments & input is appreciated.

  6. #36
    RTW V1.5 & BI V1.6 Member Severous's Avatar
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    Default Re: Investigation of unit retraining

    ^LuckyDog Trojan

    Yes. The smaller unit will cost less in wages.
    Regards
    (RTW Eras: RTW V1.5 and BI V1.6 No Mods)

    Currently writing a Scipii AAR (with pictures)
    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=91877

    Barbarian Invasion. Franks hold out against the world.
    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=77526

  7. #37

    Default Re: Investigation of unit retraining

    yah know, all of this i've read is just a tad fishy. There are some valid assumptions and rationalizations made...but, seriously, i haven't seen any 'confirmation' about any really in any conclusion. Yes, ships don't lose experience on retraining. EVERYONE knows that. I certainly don't think that translates to using it to confirm land unit retraining....or that crap about rehealing "adversely" affecting anything. As for that comment about "modding" a unit and it "suffered heavy losses" isn't exactly a controlled experiment. Sure, if you said you'd modded it so it suffered casualties without making any kills then i might buy the anecdote.

    As it stands i think there's alot more work needing to be done before people start extrapolating on unconfirmed reports. I totally want to prove myself wrong here, but as it stands i have a hypothesis:
    • 1) ships are bugged. a severely depleted ship with 3 gold chevrons won't lose chevrons when retrained. This isn't speculation. it's pure cold hard fact i don't think anyone here is debating. it's just silly to assume land units are the same, especially when training a ship from a city with pantheon of mars gives it no base experience boost. I believe this is the exception that proves the rule.
      2) post battle healing will have the computer remembering the recently dead soldiers' prior battle experience and adjusts the final chevron display accordingly for the unit
      3) retraining does not increase in cost for experience, but upgrades
      4) retraining will affect experience average in land units - which is why retraining in cities with mars temples doesn't drain chevrons over time
      5) retraining a low strength unit is more cost effective than retraining many units with less casualties, but it has nothing to do with experience/upgrades - it's just the way the math works (dunno the exact name one would use but obviously it's not a linear line) ...btw, i swear there's a bug in the game where some retraining costs are just silly
    now...it's not a theory till i can prove it or not. But it's something i'll take pains to pay attention to from now on...not only pay attention but experiment. But, i swear i'm going to be a bit pissed off if i spend all that time and be right about all my assumptions.


    I swear by Brutii. I can have a general with 4 healers (priestess, physician, herbalist and chirugeon lastly - not sure if healing stack tho. that's why i clicked on this thread in hopes of answering)
    I swear by Brutii. I can have an awesome temple of Mars and not worry about retraining units that much...at least they won't suffer too much retraining drop in chevrons...

    BTW, I agree wholeheartedly with Severous. I swear on my grandfather's grave that i've had repetitive riots in cities with peasants trained from a mars temple where you KNOW they never got any experience or loss thereof in battles, and top that off with a plague or two, and you'll notice. YOU WILL NOTICE. that retraining in a city without a mars temple that those unbloodied peasants will gradually drop in experience. This happened over many games over many years...and that's the one thing i'm without doubt about. I think i have the right to extrapolate that to other memories, less clear, about front line troops being retrained as nearby non-mars cities and discovering after a while that those stacks never really gained MUCH experience as compared to stacks retraining from pantheon of mars cities.
    Last edited by MajorFreak; 05-23-2011 at 06:02. Reason: the 'why' i even read this thread

  8. #38

    Default Re: Investigation of unit retraining

    actually, after a bit of testing i started to suspect that only peasants are affected properly...in the resulting state of pissed offedness i decided to jump ship over to EB total mod. byeee. lol

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