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Thread: Investigation of unit retraining

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  1. #1
    Magister Vitae Senior Member Kraxis's Avatar
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    Default Re: CA asks for Bug List - to be fixed in the expansion

    rcp, you most certainly don't lose overall experience at all. I have seen units of 10 men get retrained up to 120 with the same 3XP all the time. You can't tell me that the veteran 10 men has managed to becomer better through retraining.
    Personally I would prefer the veteran units to get diluged by green replacements, and not have any costincrease as we all know that in mid-game we start getting a lot of money and can thus easily pay the inflated prices.

    oaty, the strange sieges with no besieger is not a case of the player not seeing the besieger due to the FOW. In both cases I have seen, the city was fully visible with no FOW around it. In fact both cases looked like it was the player's cities. Except from a bug the only reasonable case would be an enemy in ambushmode, but that is a little farfetched.

    And in the second case it can't have been because the Dacian army retreated from an attacked made on it by the garrison and another army, if you notice the Dacians are still laying siege to the city (if you withdraw the siege is broken). Anyway I actually left the game right after shot and when I reloaded the commander of the garrison had sat down again. So it was obviously some graphical error.

    And the leadership pantheon, since all the other pantheons actually do get their bonusses increased I see no point in why the leadership version shouldn't...
    You may not care about war, but war cares about you!


  2. #2

    Default Re: CA asks for Bug List - to be fixed in the expansion

    Kraxis I would suggest using a 9xp unit to test unit experience. In almost all cases a unit with 3xp would have to take so many losses that the unit would cease to exist before you would see a change in experience for that unit.

    Also it may or may not be the case that units which have an experience bonus due to temples keep that bonus at all times under all circumstances, this is an issue I have not looked into myself, but I can tell you that experience does indeed drop after taking heavy losses when testing using high experience units.

    Please note I am not saying whether or not the ratios needed to get experienced units are realistic or balanced or anything else. Whether or not you agree with or like how this is calculated is a matter of opinion. Unit experience does work as designed.
    Last edited by rcp; 04-25-2005 at 09:08.

  3. #3
    Barbarian of the north Member Magraev's Avatar
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    Default Re: CA asks for Bug List - to be fixed in the expansion

    About retraining.

    Last night I retrained a bireme with 3 gold chevrons and 18 out of 40 men remaing. After retraining I had a 3 gold chevron bireme with 40 men.

    That should put all confusion to rest.
    Nope - no sig what so ever.

  4. #4
    Magister Vitae Senior Member Kraxis's Avatar
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    Default Re: CA asks for Bug List - to be fixed in the expansion

    rcp, I'm experienced in testing and trust me, units do not drop their experience as due to retraining. Suffering losses can certainly drop the XP as the best men might get killed leaving the less experienced troops alive.

    But if you care to mod the game so that you have a highly experienced unit from the get go (in such a unit every soldier is at that same XP level) and let it suffer heavy losses in a battle, and then retrain it you will notice it has kept the same experience as it had after the battle.
    But in any case you can always see what the average of the unit is prior to retraining, and that average is always kept.
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  5. #5

    Default Re: CA asks for Bug List - to be fixed in the expansion

    Quote Originally Posted by Magraev
    About retraining.

    Last night I retrained a bireme with 3 gold chevrons and 18 out of 40 men remaing. After retraining I had a 3 gold chevron bireme with 40 men.

    That should put all confusion to rest.

    What you describe here is a loss off 55% of your unit's soldiers. If you were to lose over 75% of you troops, then you should see a difference in your unit's experience after retraining.

    Some may not like that you need such a high rate of troop of troop loss to see a difference. Given how difficult it is to gain experience, when battles are fought on the battlemap, it would be nearly impossible to gain or retain experienced units if a 50% loss resulted in an experience drop. If one aspect of the system is tweaked, the entire system will also need to be tweaked to compensate.

  6. #6

    Default Re: CA asks for Bug List - to be fixed in the expansion

    Quote Originally Posted by rcp
    What you describe here is a loss off 55% of your unit's soldiers. If you were to lose over 75% of you troops, then you should see a difference in your unit's experience after retraining.
    Sorry, that's not true either. I've gone from 40 to 8 (on a bireme) that was triple gold. That's an 80% loss. Still triple gold after retraining.

    Bh

  7. #7
    Bug Hunter Senior Member player1's Avatar
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    Default Re: CA asks for Bug List - to be fixed in the expansion

    Well I had group of 15 three-silver archers (playing as Julii).
    After I finally retrained them I got 80 three-silver archers, for normal cost.

    As for as I see, game doesn't fill soliders with new recruits.
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  8. #8
    Magister Vitae Senior Member Kraxis's Avatar
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    Default Re: CA asks for Bug List - to be fixed in the expansion

    Quote Originally Posted by rcp
    Some may not like that you need such a high rate of troop of troop loss to see a difference. Given how difficult it is to gain experience, when battles are fought on the battlemap, it would be nearly impossible to gain or retain experienced units if a 50% loss resulted in an experience drop. If one aspect of the system is tweaked, the entire system will also need to be tweaked to compensate.
    Maybe, but it is equally silly that in time you have 3 gold chevrons. 9 XP! Even Peasants with this kind of experience can deal insane damage, even defeat most normal infantry. And yes this happens (perhaps not so much with Peasants).
    Experience should be something you took very good care of, like in the previous games. Whenever you got a new level of experience you combined that unit with another of equal level. That way you could keep the experience up in a few units that would be your elite core, unlike now when every man and his neigbours dog get high levels of experience.
    You may not care about war, but war cares about you!


  9. #9

    Default Re: CA asks for Bug List - to be fixed in the expansion

    Quote Originally Posted by Kraxis
    Experience should be something you took very good care of, like in the previous games. Whenever you got a new level of experience you combined that unit with another of equal level. That way you could keep the experience up in a few units that would be your elite core, unlike now when every man and his neigbours dog get high levels of experience.
    I have no objection to there being some small benefit to experience to new recruits when they join a veteran unit. It probably shouldn't be more than one experience point though.

    It *is* pretty silly to have retrained units retaining all their experience, if this is indeed what is happening, and furthermore it probably only adds to the already overfast kill rates.

  10. #10
    Anything that isn't 'member' Member Squid's Avatar
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    Default Re: CA asks for Bug List - to be fixed in the expansion

    Quote Originally Posted by screwtype
    I have no objection to there being some small benefit to experience to new recruits when they join a veteran unit. It probably shouldn't be more than one experience point though.

    It *is* pretty silly to have retrained units retaining all their experience, if this is indeed what is happening, and furthermore it probably only adds to the already overfast kill rates.
    Its not so much that they retain their experience its that is so cheap to do so. If the costs increased exponentially AND had a turn penalty to retrain I think that would keep it more balanced. If each additional level of experience you retrained to cost 10 times more and took an extra year/turn or something it should work since it would be the time and money needed to train new recruits up to the standards of the unit they're joining. If people and AI had to wait 5 years and spend 50,000 to retrain to level 5 it would be done a whole lot less.

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