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Thread: how do I combat squalor

  1. #1

    Default how do I combat squalor

    I've even tried not biulding any farm upgrades but it still rockets, I've got more rats than cavalry

  2. #2

    Default Re: how do I combat squalor

    Recruit peasants, this reduces population and then send them rebel-hunting, or move them to a town, where there is less population and you want it to grow...

  3. #3

    Default Re: how do I combat squalor

    Squalor is capped at a 100% relative rate for version 1.2. If you are playing an earlier version, there is no cap. Squalor cannot be eliminated, you just treat its symptoms. Here are the things you can do:

    1. Control population growth. Squalor increases in direct proportion to pop growth. If a city has reached the 24K level, there is no need to grow it further and you should manage it for zero growth or slight population decline.

    2. Don't build advanced farm upgrades. These boost population growth levels and cannot be destroyed.

    3. Don't build fertility temples which boost population.

    4. Carefully examine the VnVs of your governors. Some governors have nasty traits which significantly increase squalor. Others have good traits which reduce it. The good trait governor is the only real way squalor can ACTUALLY be reduced. Such governors are rare.

    5. Build the health upgrades available to your city. This doesn't reduce squalor, but it keeps up happiness which would fall as a result of squalor otherwise.

    6. Use taxes and games to keep up public order.

    7. Make maximum use of garrisons. Garrisons can raise order by a total of 80% plus whatever value you can get of units in the queue, even if they won't be allowed to stay in the city.
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  4. #4
    Member Member sunsmountain's Avatar
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    Default Re: how do I combat squalor

    Dont build:
    - farms.
    - temples with growth bonus

    8% total growth rate is the magic number (will sustain 24000 pop). Use the settlement details scroll and add up the numbers you see.

    To maintain public order, you should (in order of being cost effective):
    1. Install a governor if you have a spare: you're paying for them anyway!
    2. Build temples.
    3. Build arenas/execution squares/odeons (public order boosting buildings).
    4. Build health buildings and the level 5 market, though these only compensate the problems they generate themselves in terms of squalor, long term.
    5. Lower the tax rate. Aim for 85% at high rate, or 75% at low/normal (to avoid the traits efficient taxman & poor assessor).

    This should work for most settlements, but for those that are newly conquered and/or far far away:

    6. Use as much garrisons as you need if the population is below 16800.
    7. Use Games/Races above 16800, where you mix with troops and match. Obviously if you need 25% you can throw Monthly Games (+20%) and use some troops (+5%), you don't need Daily Games (+40%) in that case.
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  5. #5
    Barbarian of the north Member Magraev's Avatar
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    Default Re: how do I combat squalor

    With Squalor capped at 100% a huge city isn't as much of a problem in 1.2.

    My Carthage is at present over 50.000 inhabitants, and I'm keeping them mellow with a full compliment of peasant garrisons and a pantheon of Vulcan.

    Still can be annoying though, but the extra pop does earn you taxes.
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  6. #6

    Default Re: how do I combat squalor

    If the population is going out of control above 24k put em to the sword

    1) Empty the city of all units and park em just outside.
    2) Give city to enemy (or some faction you're willing to go to war with). Offer it as a gift.
    3) After changed hands, reoccupy and slay them all!

    I find this the most efficient way to maintain order and gain huge amounts of cash of loot. It wouldn't hurt much in taxes in the long run as someone proved that population above 12k I think pay much less taxes per.

  7. #7

    Default Re: how do I combat squalor

    Demolish enemy temples and build your own ones (preferably to gods of justice).
    Do this before it gets too late, since you'll likely get a hapiness drop until you can get your own temples built!
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  8. #8

    Default Re: how do I combat squalor

    Quote Originally Posted by Rubber Ducky
    If the population is going out of control above 24k put em to the sword

    1) Empty the city of all units and park em just outside.
    2) Give city to enemy (or some faction you're willing to go to war with). Offer it as a gift.
    3) After changed hands, reoccupy and slay them all!

    I find this the most efficient way to maintain order and gain huge amounts of cash of loot. It wouldn't hurt much in taxes in the long run as someone proved that population above 12k I think pay much less taxes per.
    Why don't you just let it go rebel? They are less likely to field decent units.

  9. #9

    Default Re: how do I combat squalor

    Rebelling would be good but there is a chance of it not happening each turn. I prefer to be done over with at the same turn. I would time my execution properly to coincide with finishing a building. Wouldn't want to start building all over again coz of time and cost. Besides rebelling can prove to be dangerous sometimes.....especially with a small garrison.

  10. #10
    Ultimate Member tibilicus's Avatar
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    Default Re: how do I combat squalor

    Hack a bit of the population down. ever let it rebel and then enslave the poulation afterwards or recruit loads of pesents and send them to there deaths.


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  11. #11
    Member Member Productivity's Avatar
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    Default Re: how do I combat squalor

    Quote Originally Posted by Craterus
    Why don't you just let it go rebel? They are less likely to field decent units.
    Leave->Give city->Slaughter

    The enemy never gets a chance to drop any units in there.

  12. #12

    Default Re: how do I combat squalor

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  13. #13
    Member Member SirGrotius's Avatar
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    Default Re: how do I combat squalor

    Why can't population growth just be a good thing!
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  14. #14

    Default Re: how do I combat squalor

    OR simply adjust unit scale and then pop will be needed in Campaigns.
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  15. #15
    Typing from the Saddle Senior Member Doug-Thompson's Avatar
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    Default Re: how do I combat squalor

    This topic must be the most difficult management issue in the game, judging by the number of complaints.

    Recruit peasants, this reduces population and then send them rebel-hunting, or move them to a town, where there is less population and you want it to grow...
    This is true. I was an early advocate of this approach in RTW. However, there are some drawbacks.

    For instance, reducing the population can increase your population growth rate. You're not curing the population problem as much as delaying it. That can be OK. It gives you time to complete "happy buildings."

    Also, simple math shows that if a 24,000 population and a slight growth rate of 0.5 percent, then building a peasant unit will only offset the population growth, not reduce population.

    ======================

    Controlling population growth is valid, but easier said than done.

    I don't agree with the conventional wisdom of not building advanced farm upgrades. They are important for revenue. Also, fertility temples can be useful. It all depends on the circumstances.

    Careful examination of governor virtues and vices is a winner. Of course, you're ripped when he dies. It's not a bad idea to move your governor out of a town every once in a while, check what the "real" contentment level is, then move him back in.

    Improving your city walls improves happiness and law.

    ===========

    Bottom line: Manage all your own cities. Pick that option in the game settings. It's a hassle, but less of a hassle than constantly dealing with revolts.
    "In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns."

  16. #16
    Robot Unicorn Member Kekvit Irae's Avatar
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    Default Re: how do I combat squalor

    I avoid building farms, health buildings, and anything else that increases population growth. I set my taxes so that I will get at least 0% growth rate. Then I start building units to get the city to the size I want.
    Only the palace buildings tier are population dependant. Once you hit 24000, build the Imperial Palace and then exterminate the populace at your leasuire. The other final tier buildings do not look at the population, but rather wiether or not you have an IP. This way you can exterminate all you want and still build Siege Engineers and Hippodromes with 2000 population, provided you have the IP, of course.

  17. #17

    Default Re: how do I combat squalor

    me personally i use the revolt method and reclaim the cities. It does take some doing by getting an army up to speed in the area...but I like it more personally then gifting and re-taking, that just seems cheesy and an easy way out. I take the losses with revolts but I feel cleaner afterwards...

    i've avoided farms, but the temples themselves usually provide a nice happiness bonus...plus, fertility temples only help getting more children/general produced as well which is nice...so i deal with faster population increases.

    I think i'll need to keep a better eye on my generals though for good/bad VnV.

    Is there any way to determine what kind of armies will be produced during a revolt. Will a town capable of only the first rank of militia only produce those during a revolt or will all sorts of random stuff pop up including cavalry and whatnot even if that town normally cannot produce such units?

  18. #18
    Philosophically Inclined Member CountMRVHS's Avatar
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    Default Re: how do I combat squalor

    Squalor seemed like a much bigger problem in the earliest version. And although it may irritate you to see all those rats in your settlement details scroll, I find that squalor is actually not much of a problem at all for me.

    I play H/H, recently patched to 1.5. And although I never used to build farms or pop-boosting temples, I do so now and haven't noticed a big difference. Check the settlement details scroll -- farms can make you a lot of money, sometimes more than trading can in a particular province. Farms are also a basically guaranteed income that won't fluctuate based on diplomacy, like trade will. Keep rebels and enemies off your lands to keep devastation down, and you've got a permanent income. As for the temples, it seems to be the case that the factions who can build pop-boosting temples are able to find use for them -- even as Carthage I occasionally built a temple to Tanit.

    I've also always hated the thought of abandoning, then sacking my own city just to reduce the number of rat-icons on my details scroll. That's something I just never need to do. If the city rebels, *then* I take it back and execute the ungrateful wretches. But if my city is operating at blue-face level, let it be!

    The fact about squalor is that it will level out eventually if you're patient. Just because your city has 70% squalor doesn't necessarily mean you need to do something drastic. If you're not having riots and your pop growth is proceeding as planned (either increasing or holding steady), then what's the problem? Even Carthage, the classic squalid city, is manageable without resorting to peasant-migration or self-inflicted extermination.

    CountMRVHS

  19. #19
    Member Member Roy1991's Avatar
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    Default Re: how do I combat squalor

    Quote Originally Posted by grapedog

    Is there any way to determine what kind of armies will be produced during a revolt. Will a town capable of only the first rank of militia only produce those during a revolt or will all sorts of random stuff pop up including cavalry and whatnot even if that town normally cannot produce such units?
    AFAIK it depends on the military buildings the town has.
    For example, a town with only barracks will only have infantry units (of the level matching the barracks) when it rebels.
    If you destroy all military buildings before the town rebels, they'll only have peasants.

  20. #20

    Default Re: how do I combat squalor

    That will work nicely then, I can try and keep the peace as much as possible, but keep a token garrison there with maybe three or four low to mid rank units along with some town watch, should be able to squash any purely peasant revolt...

    the only revolts I have seen have produced a full stack of revolting people, is it always a full stack, or sometimes it's less?

    thanks for the info!
    Last edited by grapedog; 08-25-2006 at 00:04.

  21. #21
    Ricardus Insanusaum Member Bob the Insane's Avatar
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    Default Re: how do I combat squalor

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy1991
    AFAIK it depends on the military buildings the town has.
    For example, a town with only barracks will only have infantry units (of the level matching the barracks) when it rebels.
    If you destroy all military buildings before the town rebels, they'll only have peasants.

    Yeah but remember they will all be triple gold chevron elite armoured peasants...

  22. #22
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    Default Re: how do I combat squalor

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob the Insane
    Yeah but remember they will all be triple gold chevron elite armoured peasants...
    Who are the perfect growth tools for your missile units, as they have enough of an enhanced morale to accept much higher casualties before routing away but still don't have a shield or body armor.
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  23. #23
    Member Member Avicenna's Avatar
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    Default Re: how do I combat squalor

    Now that's just evil.

    But I like it.
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  24. #24
    Member Member Celt Centurion's Avatar
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    Default Re: how do I combat squalor

    Usually this works for me, but has on occasion backfired. This also goes far beyond squalor, but things have a way of tying together.

    Unless I'm replacing a "foreign" barracks, I prefer not to destroy them, but simply upgrade after increasing the size of a city. If for example, I am playing as a Roman faction, and take over say, a Huge "Eastern" City, it will usually have an Eastern Barracks fully upgraded, along with an Eastern Stables, Epic Stone Wall, Siege Engineer and so forth. this place is prime for riots and revolts, because the only way to make the city Roman, is to destroy everything, and re-build Roman. One look at how long it takes to build a barracks, then militia barracks, then legion barracks, and so forth up to Urban barracks, and then multiply that over trader, market, forum, stables, cavalry stables, sewers, baths, acquaducts, and you see that it will take a long time converting a city, and they are revolting about every 15 to 20 turns.

    That said, as was mentioned, you can provoke a revolt by moving the army out, then take it back and exterminate. That is one sure fire way to get the population down to size. As I've read many mention, if you have destroyed all buildings, you will be confronted with a full stack revolt of peasants with gold armor, and 3 gold chevrons, which brings me to what usually works for me. You also have to rebuild in order to recruit troops and generate income.

    Say you have had a riot, population of 30,000+, and you have done all you think that you can do, but the lousy rioters have killed 200 or more of your soldiers, of which you had a full or near full stack in there.

    What works for me is to drag and drop, matching armor, and trying to match experience, but sometimes just blend them, (example drag 3 orange chevrons into one silver, two orange into 3, and one orange into two. I'm sure you get the picture.) Be careful not to drag one depleted unit into another where the two are still less than one full one, as that will reduce you by one unit. Do that too many times, and you may find a seriously shrunken army. If you are using units of 80, be sure that the two are more than 82 before you drag and drop. Once you have backfilled your units, you should have 2/3 to 3/4 of full units. Take them out of the city, actually further to past the border, or on a fleet to where they are out of sight from land. Either way, move them well away, retrain the units you have remaining in there, and set the tax rate to very high. That will get you a revolt almost every time. Then, bring the others back, and take over, and exterminate. If damage to barracks, stables and ranges prevent retraining, evacuate them all, and move a complement from somewhere else to take up the slack.

    But keep in mind what I said earlier. Upgrade foreign buildings to ones your own faction would build. What I have been doing in one is; if for instance I take over a city and cannot upgrade anything at all without adding another 11,600 people, I go ahead and (one at a time) destroy and rebuild. As Romans, I am reasonably satisfied with going as far as Legion Barracks, before doing the same with stables. Since I prefer Roman Cavalry over the other types available to Romans, I am in no need to hurry up and build up to a Circus Maximus. I can then destroy a catapult range, and build a practice range and archery range, and since I rarely use onagers, don't need to worry about a catapult range or siege engineer. Keep it up with academies, sewers, temples and so forth. Afterward, upgrade all you want.

    Don't destroy all of them at once, because you will need to have some buildings there to generate minimum units and retrain.

    If you have Huge Cities of your own, nearby, along with numbers of people, you can train up units of peasants, and move them to cities you need to increase the population and discharge them.

    Using these strategies, I've only had one riot that I can remember in that campaign, and that was just a few turns after taking over Carthage. Now that Carthage is pretty well rebuilt in my own image, it hasn't rioted lately. There is still the issue of the Carthaginian Epic Stone wall, and their roads and farms which I cannot destroy and rebuild, but everything else, I put there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grapedog
    That will work nicely then, I can try and keep the peace as much as possible, but keep a token garrison there with maybe three or four low to mid rank units along with some town watch, should be able to squash any purely peasant revolt...

    the only revolts I have seen have produced a full stack of revolting people, is it always a full stack, or sometimes it's less?

    thanks for the info!

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