Breaking an alliance?

[Zion_Raven]

Looked for an answer for this, but could not find anything but a few complaints about the diplomatic system being too simple.

My Question is....how do you formally break an alliance with someone who has become a liability?

I made what I thought to be a temporary alliance with the french until I could conquer other territories. How do you dissolve an alliance? (aside from just attacking them, which should make your other allies a little uneasy I would think) I have tried to drop a diplomat, bishop and a Princess on the faction, but it just says that they are already an alli or some other useless comment.

Thanks for the help.

I haven't downloaded any patches and do not yet have the Viking Invasion.

[phred]

If you ally with or marry into a faction that is at war with the French, you should get a popup that lets you choose which one you want to keep as an ally. That's the only way I know.

[Etym]

If you ally with or marry into a faction that is at war with the French, you should get a popup that lets you choose which one you want to keep as an ally. That's the only way I know.

This is the only way, AFAIK. Find someone they're at war with and get an alliance with them; then choose. BTW, I don't believe there's any reputation hit for attacking allies. I expect this is one factor which causes people to complain about simplistic diplomacy.

[Zion_Raven]

I have encountered that fact when a faction wanted to alli with me but was at war with one of my allies. The game warned me that an alliance with the new faction would negate my existing alliance.

Problem: noone is at war with the french and it would be plain stupid or an enormous oversite on someones part not to punish your leader's reputation for a surprise attack on an alli. Shogun was created long before MTW and has such events factored in, so what's the deal? So much for the age of chivalry! So it is attack an alli or wait for someone to go to war with them (thinking they might have to fight me too!)? ~Shakes head~

I know that many people have misconceptions about the middle ages, but they were not stupid, nor were they all villians. Nor were the villians the smart ones and the Churchmen automatically ignorant. I hope this is not the case in MTW.

Thanks for the reply guys.

[Martok]

Problem: noone is at war with the french and it would be plain stupid or an enormous oversite on someones part not to punish your leader's reputation for a surprise attack on an alli. Shogun was created long before MTW and has such events factored in, so what's the deal? So much for the age of chivalry! So it is attack an alli or wait for someone to go to war with them (thinking they might have to fight me too!)? ~Shakes head~

No one is at war with the French?? That's gotta be a first in this game.....

Seriously, though, I don't think I've ever seen France stay at peace with anyone for more than a decade or so--if that! It shouldn't take too long before they go to war against one of your other allies, at which point you can choose to end your "friendship" with them.

Also, you can certainly attack an ally, but doing so will cost your faction leader at least one point of influence. (So chivalry is somewhat included in the game, after all. ) For that reason, I tend to be pretty careful not to ally with anyone I think I'll be at war with in the near future. Keeping and gaining influence is difficult enough as it is, so I usually don't backstab an ally unless I have extremely compelling reasons to do so. They either have to be pretty powerful and/or have pissed me off pretty badly before I'll do anything to them.....

[Zion_Raven]

Thank you! I am glad to hear that there is some penalty for being a liar and a sneak, though it may be minor. It has been a lot longer than a decade and the french haven't been listed as at war woth anyone that I have noticed. Their troups thinned a bit after a crusade, but that is all.

I'm thinking that something will pop up and let me know if they fight another alli of mine, am I correct? The byzantines are kicking butt in the east, but the west has been pretty static except for my incursions into the denmark and the scandinavia (all of great britain is mine along with Aragon)

You should be able to drop and select break ties. That wouldn't be a hard mod or fix.

[Etym]

Thank you! I am glad to hear that there is some penalty for being a liar and a sneak, though it may be minor. It has been a lot longer than a decade and the french haven't been listed as at war woth anyone that I have noticed. Their troups thinned a bit after a crusade, but that is all.

I'm thinking that something will pop up and let me know if they fight another alli of mine, am I correct? The byzantines are kicking butt in the east, but the west has been pretty static except for my incursions into the denmark and the scandinavia (all of great britain is mine along with Aragon)

You should be able to drop and select break ties. That wouldn't be a hard mod or fix.

Uh, if the French launched a crusade, they're at war with whomever owned the target province (or were, anyway). And, yes, you'll get a popup if France declares on another one of your allies . . . the popup makes you choose which alliance to keep.

[Procrustes]

You can probably tempt them into attacking you by leaving one of your mutual border provinces nearly empty. Of course, now you will be at war - but you won't take the influence hit.

[Yoyoma1910]

Well, I know you want to be chivalrous and all, but personally I would assasinate their king and all his kiddies. I think that'd get the job done nicely for you.

Unless of course your a nice guy... But then you probably wouldn't be trying to concour the world, would you?

[Zion_Raven]

In response to Etym; yes, you would think that they would be at war with someone, but apparently the crusade has not reached its target, and might never if it gets blocked. I would have thought that they would be at war with Someone, by now, but there is still nothing on the diplomatic box.

I have thought about tempting them in, but I had to loose valuable improvements to my properties. Thanks for the suggestion though.

that IS sort of paradoxical; to be a "good guy" and yet take over the world. But , the Romans for a longtime justified their actions in "pacifying" the world. In their minds they were the good guys and in the right in meddling in the affairs of others. Later corruption and disillusionment did over take even Rome. The power mad and greedy did acknowledge that was exactly what they were and boasted of it. But that led to the end of the Republic and a " free" Rome. The British were also able to be the "Good guys' for a long time.
And ....on and on and on, eh?

So yes, I want to conquer the world and be a "good guy". (No laughing please!)

Still would like better diplomatic controls, but then from what has been said, I'm just wishing and if I go on about it, just whining, eh?

Thanks to you all for the comments!

[Deus Ex]

that IS sort of paradoxical; to be a "good guy" and yet take over the world. But, the Romans for a longtime justified their actions in "pacifying" the world. In their minds they were the good guys and in the right in meddling in the affairs of others. Later corruption and disillusionment did over take even Rome. The power mad and greedy did acknowledge that was exactly what they were and boasted of it. But that led to the end of the Republic and a " free" Rome. The British were also able to be the "Good guys' for a long time.
And ....on and on and on, eh?

LOL - yes. Remember, the winners get to write the history books.

So yes, I want to conquer the world and be a "good guy". (No laughing please!)

you and every other dictator


And, yes, I think it would be cool if the diplomacy worked a bit better - dunno if any of the Mods out there address that or not.


DE

[Procrustes]

I have thought about tempting them in, but I had to loose valuable improvements to my properties. Thanks for the suggestion though.

Hi,

I don't think you will loose the improvements if you retreat to your fortification and then relieve the seige the next turn. Don't abandon the province, just leave it poorly defended.

[Etym]

In response to Etym; yes, you would think that they would be at war with someone, but apparently the crusade has not reached its target, and might never if it gets blocked. I would have thought that they would be at war with Someone, by now, but there is still nothing on the diplomatic box.

Hmmm . . . that DOES seem odd. I've never actually checked the diplo box during a crusade, so I don't know from experience whether crusades trigger any changes there. But have you tried right-clicking on the crusade icon (assuming you can see it on the campaign map)? The popup should tell you where it's headed, and you may be able to ally with the owner. Worth a try, anyway . . . .

[Zion_Raven]

that is an interesting trick. I might try leaving juust a small amount of men and try that temptation tactic. I have always thought that the computer would not just evaluate the men you have in a province, but also the troops in the surrounding provinces.

Oh, as to the crusade Icon; I haven't seen it yet. I'll have to get some eyes over there to scope it out.

Thanks again!

I still mai9ntain that there are situations in which the ruling parties are so inept or harsh that another could come in as the conquoring hero. I might have watched too many cowboy movies, but, if so, leave me to my own illusions. ~smile~ I always have liked white hats and the cavalry saving the day in the nick of time.

[Etym]

BTW, I did check the diplo box during a recent crusade, and it didn't show the parties being at war. I was able to determine the target (Tripoli) by clicking my (French) ally's crusade icon, but I was already at war with the Eqyptians (who owned Tripoli) and they wouldn't agree to a ceasefire, let alone an alliance, so I was unable to find out what would happen between me and the French when the crusade arrived in Tripoli. Oh well . . . another time, perhaps.

[Lonewarrior]

just get it over it and attack them

Well sometimes in the game instead of formally breaking alliance with them, I'll just go straight out to attack them and mostly all of my allies would choose me over them. I'm thinking because of the greater influence I had.

[Togakure]

One way to break all diplomatic relations (including war) with a faction is to disconnect completely from them (no touching borders, no ships in seas where they have ships or provinces touching it, etc.). I've always thought this "feature" to be a bit silly, but it does work this way.

EDIT: Hmm ... now that I think on it, maybe it won't break alliances. You can ally with anyone at game start even if they're far away from you. I do know that if you disconnect as I described from a faction with which you are at war, your relations with them will revert to neutral. It is the same as in STW.

[Joven]

First the age of Chivilary(Sp?) was anything but Chivilarious!

Second when conquering the world why would you care about influence. Let the pathetic fools make alliances with you, if only to lull them into a false sense of security.

Remember the words of Napolen; "I would rather fight against allies than be one."

[Zion_Raven]

Appreciate you trying, ETYM!

And thanks all for the comments!

Do any of the Mod's I hear mentioned deal with Diplomacy?

[Etym]

... now that I think on it, maybe it won't break alliances.

Nope, it doesn't. Great for getting a ceasefire, though (IF you can "disconnect"). [Uh, where's the smiley for "Run Awaaaaaay"?! ]

[Zion_Raven]

I realized that I had never commented on what happened. Here it goes!

I found that if you just wait and not bite off more than you can chew, one alli or another will get into a war and you get to decide whose side to be on. If you cancel an alliance with one side, their allies will often cancel their alliance with you. Therefore, Benevolent "Dictator" or not, you are not going around breaking treaties.

Another curious thing I noticed was that my king's status was not affected by breaking alliances, (certain ones at least). I hit the Byzs just to see the effect and nothing happened. Maybe you don't take a hit in influence if you WIN?

That brings me to another line of thought: If you do not help an alli, does your influence suffer?; Does anyone have a table for influence effect? - ie. you have so much chance for an alliance if you have 6 crowns of influence vs. 5); and lastly, Why in the world does the capture of an assassin not give you a pop up screen with the choice to break an alliance and lower the influence of the king in question?, after all it is supposed to be a measure of whether you will keep your word or not.

Glad for any comments!

[Zion_Raven]

By the way ETYM, in response to your observations...

BTW, I did check the diplo box during a recent crusade, and it didn't show the parties being at war. I was able to determine the target (Tripoli) by clicking my (French) ally's crusade icon, but I was already at war with the Eqyptians (who owned Tripoli) and they wouldn't agree to a ceasefire, let alone an alliance, so I was unable to find out what would happen between me and the French when the crusade arrived in Tripoli. Oh well . . . another time, perhaps.

I never did see the French ever go to war with anyone. I think the crusade must have lost so many men that it folded before it arrived.

[ichi]

Why in the world does the capture of an assassin not give you a pop up screen with the choice to break an alliance and lower the influence of the king in question?, after all it is supposed to be a measure of whether you will keep your word or not.

Glad for any comments!

I've always wondered the same thing, catching spies and assassins should trigger an option. I also wanted to see the ability to ask another faction to reduce troops along our border, attack a common enemy, send me all their royal wimmens . . .

ichi

[Zion_Raven]

I've always wondered the same thing, catching spies and assassins should trigger an option. I also wanted to see the ability to ask another faction to reduce troops along our border, attack a common enemy, send me all their royal wimmens . . .

ichi

Good point on all....Hear that you mod'ers out there?????

[lilljonas]

Generally such things are hard coded, so no matter how much the modders hear you, the situation stays the same.