Age of Vikings and Fanatics: Total war

[Spongly]

If it starts in 843 the kingdoms of the Picts and Scots should both be Catholic, and are both ruled by one monarch - Cinaed MacAilpin.

[Rodion Romanovich]

If it starts in 843 the kingdoms of the Picts and Scots should both be Catholic, and are both ruled by one monarch - Cinaed MacAilpin.

Ok, I have only just begun the research, so your help is very welcome. Should scots and picts really be a single faction too?

[Meneldil]

After 843, they were. Pics disappeared quickly after this date. I also think they concerted to christianism way before 843, but I may be wrong on that

[Rodion Romanovich]

Ok. They're probably best represented as scots owning most of the territory but one or two provinces being rebels... I'll have a closer look at that soon. I'll start researching and deciding about factions very soon, then I'll fix the campaign map bit by bit.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Here's a slightly more pretty map. This is the first version of the campaign heights map, which will generate the landscapes. This is still work in progress, but could give you an idea of which parts of the world will be included on the map - the map edges are positioned where they'll be in the final mod.

[Rodion Romanovich]

NEWS - 2005-05-06
===============
1. FACTIONS
Factions have been decided now. Khazars will be kept, Polish will be represented as rebels. The reasons are the following:
- Khazar was a strong, united khaganate at the time.
- Historically, Poland wasn't united until long after the starting date. In fact, the Polish kingdom which was created long after the starting date was also eliminated shortly afterwards. Not until after the ending date of the mod did a strong Polish kingdom arise.
- Khazars means introducing another culture, which should make things more interesting.
- Khazars have interesting horse units and haven't been included in many games/mods before, so it'd be a nice change to play them.
- The Holy roman empire experienced it's strongest period in 900 AD, something that'll be represented in the mod if the Poland area is rebel-owned from start.
- Not having Khazars as a faction will allow Abbassid khaliphate and Novgorod to grow too strong.
- It is probably possible to make a mod to this mod that can remove Khazar and add Poland, so what I decide now doesn't matter that much.

2. FACTION DESCRIPTIONS
The research phase has begun and here are faction descriptions/plans for 7 of the factions.

Scots
=====
- Description: The Scots orginate from a tribe called the "Scotti" that lived in Hibernia, or Ireland. As long as the Romans stayed in Britain and represented a great threat to both Picts and Scots, the two people fought alongside each other, carrying out numerous raids and attacks on Roman positions. When the Romans left, Picts and Scots became rivals. From around 300 AD to 843 AD they fought a series of wars. A notable event during this period of violence was when the Scottish King Fergus in 500 AD invaded part of the Pictish territory in modern Scotland, establishing the kingdom of Dal Riada. However the Scots were often defeated by the fierce Picts and on several occasions Dal riada was ruled by Picts. This changed around 800 AD, when the Vikings started their raids on the British isles, primarily on the eastern coast where the Picts lived. The Picts were soon faced with a hopeless two-front war, and in a decisive battle in 839, the Picts were utterly defeated. During the coming five years, a period of several short reigns of many kings followed, until in 843 AD, when the new king of Dal riada, Cinaed Mac Ailpin, through bloodlines could easily claim the throne of the Pictish kingdom, thus uniting Picts and Scots again, although the Picts being the smaller group were eventually assimilated. The Scottish position in modern Scotland was strengthened while the Scottish positions in northern Ireland were assimilated by larger Irish tribes and viking invasions. Even though the Scottish position is quite strong at this time after the uniting of the two tribes, the viking raids and the strength of Saxons and other tribes further south will offer a tough challenge for the Scottish leader. They have an advantage in that they only have one front and quite defensible highland provinces, but their provinces are poor and can't support an army large enough to challenge the stronger factions to the south unless they expand aggressively from start. In the long term, the rising faction of Normandy will become a great threat too.
- Starting characters: King (Cinaed MacAilpin).
- Religion: Catholic.
- Surroundings: The Scotland area will consist of Dal riada (on the west coast), Northern Scotland, Middle Scotland and Southern Scotland. The latter three will need better names, and the correct capitals of the provinces must be researched. The Scots will from start own all of these provinces, but their army is weak and they barely have more than what's needed to maintain public order. The provinces are also poor, which requires a fast strike south if they are to improve their strategical, long-term strength which will be needed against the Vikings.
- Army: celtic warriors, highland clansmen, elite clansmen, good spearmen. Little and weak cavalry as long as they only own provinces in Scotland, but if they move south and conquer richer lands they'll be able to afford the support and training costs for better cavalry.

Irish
=====
- Description: The population in Ireland is mostly celtic, having lived on the island since the 1st century BC or earlier. Having originally been followers of pagan druidic religions, they were in 432 AD converted to Christianity by St. Patrick. From then and during the coming centuries the island prospered economically, culturally and technologically. But this mostly peaceful scenario was ended in the early 9th century, when Viking raids begun shaking the island and it's population. Apart from raids against monasteries and towns, some attempts at conquest were also made. In 831 the viking Thorgest sailed up the Shannon and established a kingdom in the Ulster and Connacht regions. Historically he was defeated by Malachy, King of Meath, who then proceeded by defeating another viking army at Sciath Nechtain, but that was not the end of the viking terror, which continued for some centuries. In 852 Olaf the White and Ivar Beinlaus conquered the area around modern Dublin and founded Dublin (although some sources indicate the city already existed under the name of Eblana). In 1014 AD the Irish won an important victory over the Norwegian viking Sigurd, who was defeated and killed in the battle of Clontarf, but at the cost of the Irish King Brian Boru dying too. The viking claims to the throne of Ireland stopped shortly afterwards, only to replaced by claims from the new Norman rulers of Britain. The Irish have a fine tradition of celtic warriors but their isolated position has made the need for a strong army limited, something that is gradually changing around 834 AD when the Viking raids are beginning en masse. The Irish must take up their old warrior tradition and strengthen their army in order to be able to withstand this terror - and perhaps also use that power to conquer new strategic positions. But from start, their main concern is the kingdom of the viking Thorgest, which must be taken if the Irish want a united Ireland, or Éire, as they call their island.
- Starting characters: King (Malachy).
- Religion: Catholic.
- Surroundings: Ireland will consist of 4 provinces - Ulster (northern Ireland - ?), Connacht (western Ireland - Limerick), Leinster (southeast Ireland -
Dubh Linn), Munster (southwest Ireland - Cork). The Irish will from start own Munster and Leinster, whereas the rebel family member Thorgest and his
vikings will control Ulster and Connacht.
- Army: non yet decided. Celtic warriors and good swordsmen will be important. The bonnachts and gallowglasses of M:TW will perhaps be included.

Saxons
=====
- Description: The saxons, the angli and the jutes invaded Britain in the 5th century following the roman withdrawal, and came to establish the strongest kingdoms in the area until the time of the viking invasion. When the Danish vikings started invading the island around 800 AD, the Saxons offered the strongest resistance, from 834 AD under the leadership of the famous Alfred the Great, who, historically, defeated the Danish viking Cuthrum of Danelagen (or the Danelaw) in the battle of Edington and forced a ceasefire which stopped the Danish expansion and created stability on the island for a while and eventually led to the Danes being thrown out of the British isles. But that was not the end of their troubles. More vikings would try to claim the throne of Britain, including Norwegians and Normans (Normandy was created by vikings) in 1066 AD. The saxons have a strong army consisting both of viking mercenary huscarles and local recruits such as fyrdmen, and it is for a good reason that they kept control over much of Britain up to 1066 AD. Perhaps, under a few generations of unbroken strong military leadership they could have gone even further...?
- Starting characters: King (Alfred the Great).
- Religion: Catholic.
- Surroundings: The Saxons are concentrated to the southern and eastern parts of Britain in a tough strategical position. However much of the land to the north will be owned by rebels (mercians, northumbrians etc.) but some will also be owned by the Danes, and there's also the Welsh with their skilled longbowmen if the Saxons move even further. The position is made even more problematic by the fact that it's surrounded by seas and the Saxon navy is no match for the viking longboats. Any expansion attempts will mean starting wars with several factions and unless one or two can be eliminated quickly the Saxons will have many tough centuries of fighting ahead of them. It isn't likely they'll be eliminated by the pressure - at least not in the short term - but they'll be forced to fight defensively for a long time which could weaken their strategic strength. And the many rebel territories to the north are probably easier for Danes than Saxons to capture so they probably won't be of much help.
- Army: Fyrdmen will constitute the main body of the Saxon army, but they'll be supported by huscarles swordsmen and axemen forming the elite, and a mounted nobility which will get stronger as the campaign proceeds.

Welsh
====
- Description: Since the centuries before Christ, Wales has been inhabited by Celtic tribes, among others the famous Silurii, who under the leadership of Caradoc defied the romans after Claudius's invasion of Britain. Wales was eventually captured, but the romans found the terrain difficult and the lack of agricultural land made their interest in the area limited, even though there were possibilities for gold mining and trade. When the romans withdrew, the saxons quickly conquered most of England, but had to stop when reaching Wales, because they couldn't penetrate the difficult terrain. Their expansion however isolated the Welsh from the other Celts in Britain and during the coming centuries their culture developed independently of the other Celts, resulting in a special language, special traditions and a unique warfare supported by the famous Welsh longbow. During this period, Wales was converted to Christianity and existed as a number of petty kingdoms. Not until in 820 AD did the Welsh tribes unite, under the leadership of Rhodri Mawr, also known as Rhodri the Great, who historically ruled the kingdom until in 877 AD. Having held off many invasion attempts from vikings and saxons, he was eventually defeated by vikings and had to flee to Ireland, where he stayed for a year before returning and attempting to reestablish his kingdom. However, weakened by the conflicts, he was killed in a battle against the Mercians. Wales only experienced unity occasionally during the coming centuries, partly due to the tradition of dividing the land between heirs, but remained independent from England until in the end of the 13th century.
- Starting characters: King (Rhodri the Great), Queen (Angharad).
- Religion: Catholic.
- Surroundings: Wales consists of difficult terrain that will be very defensible, but lack agricultural and trade resources. Perhaps the gold mining can help the Welsh, but they must also develop their army and form a professional, united army incorporating the terribly effective longbowmen to support their comparatively weak infantry. The position next to saxons is problematic, but there are also Mercian (rebel) territories to the northeast that's up for grabs. However, the mercians are strong, and the Welsh will have to increase the strength of their army before they can hope to destroy the Mercians. Perhaps, striking the Mercians first will be the best way of preventing them from striking first? But this will in return put the Welsh next to the Danish vikings, who have an even stronger army than the saxons (although much of it is kept in Denmark).
- Army: celtic infantry of good quality (but slightly weaker than the catholic units, especially the elite) to support the incredible longbowmen (and before the longbowmen comes, standard archers of extra high quality). Cavalry are weak and few in number because the poor homelands can't support much cavalry, but if they conquer richer lands there's no reason why they wouldn't be able to form a heavy cavalry force.

Bulgars
=======
- Description: The Bulgars originally migrated into the Balkan area from the east. Having conquered settlements north of Constantinople, they have by 834 AD become a threat even for the mighty Byzantine Empire. The leadership of the faction has only 3 years ago been handed over to Malamir, who historically is known for ordering the conquest of Aegean Macedonia and aiding the Smolyans, living in Aegean Thrace, rebel against the Byzantines. Malamir is part of the feared Ugain clan, where among others the feared Krum are included. Krum had, only a few decades earlier, put fear into the hearts of the Byzantines by defeating them in the open and by besieging Constantinople itself (however, the formidable walls of the city, as in so many other cases, saved it). The Bulgars are as a people outnumbered by the local slavic population, and might therefore have trouble holding their provinces. However, their armies are quite strong, even compared to those of the Byzantine empire, and if they can hold their territory and defeat other rising empires in the area, including the kingdom of Serbia, they have a potential to create a larger empire unless they're exhausted by the conflict with the Byzantines.
- Starting characters: King (Malamir), General (Kav-Khan Isbul, to the south near Aegean Macedon area which is rebel controlled from start).
- Religion: Orthodox. Historically the bulgars converted to orthodox faith in 864 AD, but no such conversion is possible to implement so it's probably best to represent them as Orthodox from start.
- Surroundings: In the battles where the bulgars aided the Smolyans, fierce battles broke out near Philippi and Siar. The Smolyans lived in Aegean Thrace, which should probably be an own province. Serbia must be a province, populated by rebels called "Serbians", who will have a quite strong army to reflect how they could manage to defeat the bulgars. Historically, Malamir was defeated by the Serbians in a war from 839 to 842 (however, losses were limited and no Bulgarian land was lost). Moesia should perhaps be a province, as it was conquered by Malamir during his reign. There will perhaps also be a province called Bulgaria, that the bulgars will of course own from start.
- Army: Not yet decided, but slavic infantry will constitute the main body of the army. Some cavalry and archers will support, including the bulgarian brigands which will be some of the best early, short-range archers. The bulgars will also have good javelinmen.

Khazar
======
- Description: The Khazars, like the Bulgars, originate from the Gokturk empire which was split up in the early 7th century. The bulgars were split up between the volga, danube and black sea area, while the Khazars stayed on the steppes a formed a strong united khaganate (which was however unlike Bulgaria eliminated in the long term). The Khazars were allied to the Byzantines during a long period, during which they aided the Byzantines in fighting many wars: against the sassanids (this gave the Khazars and Byzantines control over the Georgia region), the first Khazar-Arab war (which ended with the Arabs being defeated in a battle outside the Khazar town of Balanjar) and the second Khazar-Arab war (resulting in an attempt to arrange a marriage between the warring parts, but the Khazar bride died or was killed - it's unclear which way it was - and it took some more time until peace was achieved). The Khazars originally had a shamanist religion centered around worship of the sky god Tengri and the less important gods Umay (fertility goddess), Kuara (thunder god) and Erlik (god of death), but they were later also influenced by Confucian ideas from China. Like the Scythians, the Khazar women took part in war and governing and held a high status. Around 800 AD the leading Khazars however converted to Judaism and during the coming centuries the people followed, therefore there are still remnants of pagan religion in these areas although the faction has a Jewish religion. The Khazars had a friendly relationship to the Novgorod Rus but after 800 AD hostilities broke out and historically the viking attacks in combination with the Byzantines breaking the long alliance between Byzantines and Khazars led to the fall of the khaganate.
- Starting charachters: King (Bulan?).
- Religion: Jewish
- Surroundings: The Khazars own the area northeast of the Black Sea, including Georgia and areas next to the Caspian sea, including Armenian territory. They also own the Crimea and the Kiev area (however the latter with low public order and weak garrison), and the heavily fortified city of Sarkel at the Don basin. To the south they have the Khaliphate as neighbors, and to the west their allies the Byzantines. Most of the land between Khazar and Novgorod is rebel owned (including the Pechenegs to the east between Volga and the Ural mountains and the Volga-bulgarians next to Volga), but this doesn't mean the Khazars will have an easy time expanding as they wish. The steppes are hard to control due to brigands, large distances which lower public order, and long frontlines which will require a large army or tactical genius if the Khazars are to succeed in expanding much. A strike on the khaliphate to the south would give the Khazars control over some more stratetic lands, but the khaliphate has a strong army and this will in the long term make the Khazars rivals to the Byzantines - can they really afford to break such a strong alliance and make the Byzantines their enemies?
- Army: Khazar royal cavalry, some horse archers and muslim auxiliaries (Arsiyah) of Alan and Khwarazmian origin. Apart from the standing army of the leader (the Bek), the Khazars could also muster numerous levies in times of war. The Khazars have good cavalry but most of their infantry are temporarily recruited levies and/or auxiliaries so they can't rely much on their infantry line in battle. They also have formidable siege engines, for example used in the first Khazar-Arab war, which were probably kept after that. Pecheneg and perhaps also some varangian (Rus vikings) mercenaries were also used.

Magyars
======
- Description: Historically the Magyars moved into the Carpathian Basin around 830 AD, completing the conquest of the area in 896 AD. In 834 AD their empire is concentrated west of the Dnjepr and east of the Carpathian, owning little useful land but with a strong army of skilled horsemen that can support their infantry well. Their conversion to a catholic faith historically led to a good relationship to the Pope, perhaps because they challenged the orthodox power in the Balkans area and thus aided the Pope in the schism fights between catholic and orthodox faith.
- Starting characters: King (?).
- Religion: Catholic
- Surroundings: The magyars own no useful ground at the start, but a strong army, which they'll have to use to conquer some rebel provinces and establish a strong position in the Carpathian Basin area. They'll own Moldavia, and the Carpathia area is up for grabs. To the south there are the Bulgars, but there is a rebel buffer zone between them so the magyars don't need to worry about the Bulgars in a while, as the Bulgars have better provinces to conquer to the south - including Greece. The magyars have relatively little to worry about in terms of military opposition from start - to the north there are mostly rebels - but in the long term their position is problematic, and will most likely result in a conflict with the Holy roman empire, the Bulgars, the Byzantines and perhaps also the population of the Italian peninsula. The area north of the Balkans and south of Poland is perhaps the least strategic position there is at this time when not only the southern, but also the northern front is subject to raids and conquests from strong kingdoms.
- Army: In this period, the Szekely ethnic group constituted the elite of the Hungarian army, which of course also consisted of other ethnic groups in the area. The Szekely horse archers and heavy cavalry will be strong units in the early campaign.

[Rodion Romanovich]

NEWS UPDATE May 8th 2005
===========
Work on campaign map has started. Most provinces in Scandinavia, British Isles, Spain and North Africa have already been decided. More work is needed before provinces of central Europe, Asia minor, Middle east and eastern steppes have been decided - but for those areas, unlike those I have now completed, I'll probably use almost the same provinces as in M:TW.

I decided to throw away the map I've shown part of above, and restart the work on the campaign map, mainly because I want a different "density" of provinces, i.e. I want greater distances between the provinces in British Isles and other areas where there are many cities. The result of this enlargement of the map is that North Africa and the steppes will be harder to conquer and conquer - which is another thing I wanted to achieve. Those who play this mod are supposed to have great problems conquering and holding such areas that were historically hard to conquer and hold, and it should usually be more beneficial to move in another direction when expanding. Another result of this is that you can't simply conquer everything till your reach the map edge and then eliminate one front because the map happens to end there - it's now unlikely you'll ever conquer the provinces closest to the map edge and you can expect trouble there so you'll need to keep troops to guard that area too.

The map will probably also use different terrain, climate etc. than the vanilla R:TW map. The border between snow and no snow for the winter turns will be drawn further north than in vanilla R:TW (but high mountains will still have snow in the winter), to reflect the real situation. There was a small ice age in the 14th century but this is the middle 9th to late 11th century so the snow shouldn't reach that far south.

Screenshots for the campaign map from it's very first alpha state can probably be expected in two weeks.

[Ranika]

If I may, I'd like to recommend some revisions to the Irish/Scottish faction descriptions slightly, mostly correcting errors in time tables. We know now that Celts inhabitted Ireland far earlier than the 1st century BC (more likely the 4th century), and the Scots weren't from a tribe called the Scotti, that was a Roman-British name for all Gaels which just meant 'pirates', and was adopted as a Brythonic term for the Scots (since they were in close contact with them, and were the most well-known Gaelic tribe). The Scots didn't call themselves Scots for some time; it was eventually adopted from the Strathclyders (who were Britons under their rule). They also came from a kingdom called Ulaid, which was a small kingdom in Ireland (in eastern modern Ulster, which was only later called Ulaid as a whole), consisting of several tribes, and the 'invasion' of King Fergus is mythical; Gaels had inhabitted the lands of Dal Riada for centuries. King Fergus did fight the Picts though, but probably over land rights; the presence of Gaelic houses in Argyll from the 1st century BC onward disproves the idea of an 'invasion'. In Ireland, the claims of Normans to the Irish throne never actually materialized until after the 1100s had begun. From Clontarf into the early 1100s, Ireland, while still disunified, was experiencing a period of more peaceful quasi-unity, and the high kingship actually experienced legitimacy (the high kings were successfully collecting homage from MOST kingdoms), but no high king since Brian ever had the strength (or maybe just no motivation) to push for stronger unity.

[Spongly]

Ok, I have only just begun the research, so your help is very welcome. Should scots and picts really be a single faction too?

Yep, they should be called "The Kingdom of Alba" really. The Picts don't really disappear so much as they and the DalRiadan Scots unite into a single kingdom, in fact originally under the King of the Picts, Cinaed MacAlpin. The issue of language is a weird one - both people seem to have spoken Gaelic by this point, possibly under the influence of the Church in the area.

As to religion, the Picts were actually probably Christian from about the year 400 onwards. Bede tells us that St Ninian was the first to convert them.

[The Apostate]

I am quite happy to join the team as a researcher.

Did my degree in history specialising in late antiquity and early medieval period and have a big library covering the period.

Am particularly knowledgeable on the Byzantine and Viking worlds, less so on Islam.

No skill whatsoever as a modeller/skinner but am happy with changing the data export files so can help out there.

General comments:

Magyars in 843 are pagan and remain so until 1000.

Bulgars are also pagan but christianised in 867.

The Danes, Poles and Rus (which is a better term than Novgorod) were still Pagan in 843 and remained so til the later 10th century.

It is highly debatable how Jewish the Khazars were - certainly some of their khagans were converted but the great majority of the population were either Pagan, Muslim or Christian - however I do love the idea of building synagogues...

Conversion is thus a big issue in this period and as there is no way the AI will ever switch religions you will end up with half of your factions starting and remaining pagan.

This is fine if you want a short campaign with lots of different pagan temples to add variety.

However if you want the mod to be open-ended and allow development into the High Middle Ages you would be much better starting at 1000 - at which point almost everyone but the peoples around the Baltic have converted.

While 843 is an era of fragmentation, in 1000 you have much more solid and organised states (although Bulgaria would have to go - disappearing in 1014).

You also have no Fatimids in 843 and pretty much the whole Muslim world except for al-Andalus is part of the Abassid Caliphate - which the AI being what it is will end up swallowing everything just as Egypt does in RTW - whereas in 1000 you have Abassid, Fatimid and Umayyad Caliphates each of which is of roughly equal power.

Re map I can't see much value in including the North Atlantic and Northern Scandinavia - which will just be dead space - just as much of the north and east of the RTW map is.

Personally prefer the Europa Barbarorum or Rome Total Realism maps which do not go as far north but do include Persia - where a lot more of interest is happening.

With an eastern-stretched map you also get to include the Turks as opponents for the Byzantines (again in 843 these are a minor confederation of tribes in Central Asia but in 1000 they control an empire covering much of Persia and the Indus Valley).

Don't think the papacy should be a state in this period (for much of it the Popes were corrupt puppets of the Roman nobility) and of course the Lombard League does not come into existence until the late-1100's (in 843 North Italy was part of the short-lived kingdom of Lotharingia which stretched from Rome to the North Sea and which represents another problem for an 843 start as it disintegrates within a generation).

Will you have a Marian reform event? - strikes me that the transition to the couched lance and crossbow which occurred in the early-mid 11th century would fit this (i.e. before the reform Frankish armies have relatively weak cavalry, after it they have real knights as well as crossbows and a better range of siege equipment - OTOH the Byzantines at about the same time would lose much of their Thematic troops and become more dependant on mercenaries).

[tutankamon]

Hi great idea.. but why have you listed the Danes as a chatholic nation as I recall we didn't become real chatholic until 1099!

[Spongly]

As far as religion goes, could you not implement conversion in some other way?

For example, pagan temples give you various benefits, but after a fixed time period (like the Marian reform event) you get the option to build churches if you demolish the temples...the churches should give you big benefits to running a well organised and wealthy state in this period, so there should be some political incentive to convert....

[Rodion Romanovich]

As far as religion goes, could you not implement conversion in some other way?

For example, pagan temples give you various benefits, but after a fixed time period (like the Marian reform event) you get the option to build churches if you demolish the temples...the churches should give you big benefits to running a well organised and wealthy state in this period, so there should be some political incentive to convert....

I don't know about that. Aren't marian reforms triggered in all "roman" factions simultaneously? I haven't really though about marian reforms much for this mods, but this idea of yours seems interesting - perhaps possible to include.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Hi great idea.. but why have you listed the Danes as a chatholic nation as I recall we didn't become real chatholic until 1099!

Sorry for that mistake, they'll be pagan in the mod

[Rodion Romanovich]

After some thinking I've come to the conclusion that I should probably try to add it so that factions can get their religion converted at different dates. Once I've fixed the campaign map and some of the basic unit editing I'll start looking at such features that would definitely add a unique flavor to this mod. But I'm eager to get a campaign map and some test units up quickly, I think it's easier to experiment once those basic details have been fixed.

[The Apostate]

Some thoughts on conversion:

What we need for the Norwegians, Danes, Swedes, Rus and Magyars are tech tree that are pagan at the lower levels and christian at the higher.

So is it possible to have say temples to Odin at levels 1-3 but a Christian Mission at level 4?

Higher level military and economic would also be made dependant on the Christian Mission being built.

i.e. without conversion the pagans stay at the same restricted levels as barbarians in RTW and with it they can get access to the same stuff as Christian feudal states.

While on the subject some more variety to Christian buildings would be nice - Churches dedicated to Saints and Monastic orders would give different types of bonuses (yeah I know these are all fantasy elements but are still worth considering).

For instance the famous shrine to St Michael the Archangel at Monte Gargano in Southern Italy attracted Norman pilgrims who ultimately set up a state there.

You could either have this as a wonder (The Holy Sepulchre at Jerusalem, Grand Mosques of Damascus and Cordoba, Hagia Sophia at Constantinople, St James at Compostoella and St Peters at Rome could be the other wonders) or as a church that can only be built in a province with a hidden resource of St Michael - so you can't have cathedrals of St Michael turning out +3 exp troops all over Europe.

Sts George and Demetrius fulfilled a similar role as warrior saints in the orthodox world (in fact most of our depictions of Byzantine soldiers are actually depictions of the these saints and of old testament kings)

Benedictine monasteries would also give agricultural bonuses, Marian churches fertility bonuses etc.

[Rodion Romanovich]

I'm still a little dubious about the starting date. Going as far as 911 is a little too much in my opinion. The fact that Normandy didn't exist until 911 is a minor inaccuracy if the mod starts in say ~880 AD or after - at least compared to the inaccuracies caused by AI and game mechanics. However, Normandy is probably too far out of the time frame in the 843 AD, so therefore I agree the starting date should be slighly later, but not be moved as far as to 911 AD. If you can find an interesting date around 850-900 that would make sense to have as a starting date, I'd like that.

Some replies to your list of reasons:
1-3. The lack of unity for the Scandinavian factions is imo a bonus, as it gives them a challenging start. Regarding not yet founded settlements, I see that as a minor problem if they were historically founded shortly after the starting date. Some approximations have to be done with the starting situation, or it'll pay back as a more inaccurate situation later in the game. I'm of the opinion that things that happened shorter than 50 years after the starting date aren't necessarily bad to have included from start.

Re AI not being able to send fleets, I've actually seen use of fleets from several AI factions in vanilla R:TW. One of the tricks is to have some rebel territories up for grabs in the British isles area, another trick, that could be relevant for the Danes, would be to have them own one province in the British isles from start - that'll make them want to reinforce their hold there.

4-7 The reason why I wanted scots, irish, welsh and saxons despite their inferior military strength compared to for example Byzantines and French in this period, was because a. gameplay-wise it's fun to have some really weak factions mixed with the stronger in order to grant a challenge to better players, b. the focus was on British isles. Even though Welsh were weak and mostly not united, I like the idea of having the ability to play them.

8 Normandy - I agree 843 was a bit too early. A compromise between 843 and 911 would be the best imo.

9 Rus - A strong Rus gives a strange balance imo. AI will expand far too quickly and perhaps also try to attack Scandinavia, which will then probably lose. Having a small Novgorod culture centered mostly around Novgorod will probably work better with AI, and make them more challenging to play. Still, they'll be relatively strong compared to the Swedish who are by then not united, and the Danes and Norwegians will prefer moving west so the Rus will be weak but still not likely to be conquered but instead grow steadily through the game. I think that's a better reflection of them - a growing empire in the 9th century than an overpowered dynasty (that will tend to conquer too much land) in the 10th century.

10-12 Magyars, Khazars, Bulgars religions. I explained this above, the magyar conversion however being too late to have from start if we start in 843 AD. Adding a conversion event, if that's at all possible, would solve all this. If we move the starting date to my newly suggested ~880 AD we'd still obtain the best results game mechanics-wise by letting Bulgars be orthodox, Magyars be pagan and Khazars be jewish. Around 880 AD I also believe Hungary have moved further into the northern Balkans area than in 843 AD. Having them as a too strong power from start would probalby upset balance.

13 Poles, the faciton limit can't allow including the Poles. Also, the first Polish kingdom fell pretty quickly, so Polish can't be in the mod, no matter what time we choose. Even though they were more important than the Welsh, I'm afraid I can't accept removing the Welsh, due to the Viking focus. I've already removed Mercians and Northumbrians among others up there.

14-16 Muslim States - I believe there are two choices for around 843 and 880: Al Andalus + Abbassids, or Fatimids + Abbassids. If we move far forward Abbassids would be Mamluks. I think I prefer Al Andalus + Abbassids, but it's just a matter of taste. I actually like having a "Spanish" Asturia too, just because they started in a hard position and they'd be fun to play. Besides, most muslim factions would have a similar fighting styles in many ways, so including some Iberian peninsula catholic faction would add variety.

17 Italians - After looking at those maps I've decided to replace Lombards with Lotharingia. Lotharingia will have little control and high unrest etc. in their northern provinces but good strength in modern northern Italy. That will be an accurate depiction of the decline and fall of the middle part of the Frankish empire.

18 Byzantines - I actually prefer having the Byzantines as a weak but rising power, for balance reasons. After all they already have the impregnable Constantinople from start. I know about the Iconoclasm and heretics etc., but 843 AD was the end of some of these problems and my sources claim it's approximately after 843 AD that the Byzantines enter their "golden age".

21 Rome - I'll make the pope pretty weak in the mod. "If you're stuck woth the Senate-Family relationship I suppose you can make the Julii France, Brutii Germany and Scipii Italy in which case they won't attack each other (which is not historically accurate) and the conquest of Rome is equivalent to the same event in RTW" - Yes, that's probably what I'd do.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Some thoughts on conversion

As I said I'm still not sure conversion is possible to implement. I'll do some research on the subject first, so perhaps we shouldn't yet waste time on planning for a system WITH conversion. Just using a tech tree will still keep the culture penalty when conquering settlements from Christians, and also probably make all new buildings still show up as for example "church (pagan)" just like in vanilla R:TW: "muster field (barbarian)" etc. unless we can find some script or something that can change culture for a faction.

While discussing religion and buildings I might as well post most of my tech tree plans so far. I haven't planned anything for Khazars or Magyars yet, these are still half-generic building trees mostly centered around the catholic factions.

NOTE! MOST UNITS MENTIONED BELOW (FOR MILITARY BUILDINGS) ARE GENERIC PLACEHOLDERS! FOR MOST FACTIONS THEY'LL NEED TO BE REPLACED BY UNIQUE UNITS. PLEASE DON'T MISUNDERSTAND ME AND THINK I MEAN THESE UNITS WILL BE EXACTLY THE FINAL UNITS WHICH WILL BE TRAINED IN THESE BUILDINGS!

RELIGION RELATED BUILDINGS
======================
- Main ideas: All faction have temples or similar which grant a happiness bonus. The pagan factions also have different temple types which will grant different boni. Choosing to honor a certain God in a certain province means locking the ability of honoring another God in that very province. Most factions will have one or more "fanatic" units, which will be trained in one of their holy buildings.

- Vikings: three Gods to choose between (and what boni they grant apart from the happiness): Odin (+morale, +xp, enable training of berserkers), Thor (+armor +weapons), Freya (+population growth). Vikings can also keep public order up by the happiness created by a "tavern", which can then be upgraded to a "mead hall".

- Catholics: chapel (no boni except happiness), church (+1 xp, +5% law), cathedral (+much happiness, +1 morale, enable training of catholic fanatics - clubmen?). Church will also unlock "monastery", which grants some extra happiness and is cheaper than cathedral. Perhaps monastery could be replaced by monasteries of diffent types, in case the game mechanics allow for it. There's a maximum of 60 different building series, so if there's room after we've planned the rest, I like the idea of replacing "monastery" here by monasteries belonging to different religious orders. The Holy Sepulchre at Jerusalem should be a wonder which grants happiness in all provinces just like the Zeus statue in R:TW. The Holy Sepulchre will really be "The Holy Sepulchre, the Mosque of the rock and the Jewish temple", which means it's logical that all factions can get a happiness bonus from conquering it (except the pagans, but they'll eventually have converted to Christianity so it makes sense there too). The reason for this is because I doubt you can make wonders that only give boni to certain factions. Perhaps wonders could be replaced by "important cities", where those could be Jerusalem, Constantinople, Rome and perhaps some more - granting specific boni. I believe we'll have to discuss that further...

- Orthodox: chapel, church (+1 xp, +5% law), cathedral (+much happiness, +1 morale, can't think of any specific fanatics here...). Church would unlock
Sts George and Demetrius monasteries just like church for catholics unlock catholic monasteries.

- Muslims: minarete, mosque (+1 xp +5% law), grand mosque (+much happiness, +1 morale, enables training of al-murabitin fanatics for western muslims, some other unit for eastern muslims - if at all they'll have one unlocked by this one).

Grand Mosque of Damascus and Cordoba should be buildings that can't be constructed by any factions but exist in these provinces from start, with culture set to "muslim". Same thing with shrine to St Michael the Archangel at Monte Gargano in Southern Italy - with culture set to "catholic". With this system, Hagia Sophia at Constantinople, St James at Compostoella and St Peters at Rome could also be buildings of this type. I'm against making buildings that have a meaning only to one of the cultures a wonder as I believe the wonder gives boni to conquerors no matter of which culture he is. In some cases, these special buildings could be constructable in only one province and not be there from start - a solution perfect for the cases when the building wasn't historically created at the starting date of the mod.

I haven't planned for the Magyars and Khazars yet.

AGRICULTURE AND HEALTH
====================
I suggest farming income is given a greater importance than in R:TW compared to trade. The base farming level and the farm upgrades will be modelled realistically by letting base farming represent fertility in the province, and in the cases where crop yield was relatively good at this time despite perhaps a low fertility, this should be represented by already having one or more farming upgrades in the province from start. Here are the farming levels:
- Forest clearings (already available from start in a lot of provinces)
- Farms (farms now more organized and effective)
- Crop rotation
- Farming technology (by letting some fields lie fallow effectiveness is increased further even though all land isn't used at the time, and better ploughs allows every peasant to take care of a larger area without more effort which can increase crop yields per year)
- Irrigation (expensive and time consuming to construct, irrigation can in proper climate result in 2 or even 3 harvests per year - something that increases yields a lot)

And the health buildings:
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus, separating the sewage water from drinking water is a simple step that improves health a lot - however this technique isn't commonly known and it's cheaper and faster for lazy people to use same flow for both because they have to dig less...)
- Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus, much herbal medicine is unscientific and can even cause disease when there isn't any, but there are some medicines which are actually very effective at driving out evil)
- Water pipes (+20% health bonus, soap made from animal fat, and water pipes leading water into a house is advanced technology for many, but a few of the richest as well as church representatives who are spreading their faith are also bringing technologies like these with them).

PORTS, TRADERS, ROADS
===================
Roads:
- Paths
- Mud roads
- Paved roads (only available for catholics, orthodox and muslims)

Trading (all of these improve trade - and perhaps also population growth):
- Trader
- Market
- Merchant
- Master merchant (+10 happiness)

Docks/harbors:
- Port
- Shipyard
- Dockyard

Good seafaring nations such as vikings can perhaps not create master merchant, but will in return get trade boni from their ports, shipyards and dockyards.

BLACKSMITH AND ARMOR
===================
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons)
- Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons)
- Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed)
- Master armorer (+2 to all armor)

I suggest these upgrades buildings should ONLY be possible to build in provinces with the "iron" resource, at least the blacksmith buildings should IMO.

MINING
=====
I'd like several different mine types. I've checked and it's possible to implement this. All mines should exist as "x mine" and "large x mine" where x is the name of the metal recieved from the mine.
- Salt
- Copper
- Silver
- Gold

MILITARY RELATED BUILDINGS
======================
I had in mind a system where you have to construct one building for making of weapons, enabling recruitment of a militia force using these weapons, and an extra building for training of soldiers (unlocked after creating the weapons construction building), enabling training of professional soldiers using these weapons. There are also specific town guard/police force buildings which can only train milita. I've used generic unit names below - the respective factions will of course have to use more specific names (and have more specific looks) for the units. In cases where no specific units are known we might have to use a generic unit in each field. Militia units can also be generic in most cases.

MILITIA:
- Muster field (javelinmen, town watch, peasants), Town militia (urban militia), Police force (urban guard, +5 law bonus).

BOWS:
- Bowmaker (militia bowmen), Bowmaker's workshop (militia archers), Bowmaker's guild (militia archer +1 xp), Master bowmaker (crossbowmen, pavise crossbowmen).
- Practise target (bowmen, requires bowmaker), Archery range (archers, requires bowmaker's workshop, +1 to missile weapons).
- Some factions will have exceptions, for example Welsh will be able to train longbowmen and bulgarians perhaps bulgarian brigands, and Lotharingia get crossbowmen for lower cost perhaps and be the only who can recruit the Genoese crossbowmen as standard units rather than mercenaries.

SPEARMEN:
Spearmen don't require advanced buildings for training, and spearmen are seldom professionals so no special training buildings are available to improve the spear units.
- Spearmaker (wooden-spear militia), Spearmaker's workshop (spear militia, spearmen), Spearmaker's guild (heavy spear militia, heavy spearmen), Master spearmaker (feudal foot sergeants, halberdiers).
- Saxons will have fyrdmen to replace appropriate units above (perhaps the generic heavy spearmen and spearmen with fyrdmen +1xp and fyrdmen, respectively).

CAVALRY:
Cavalry is a professional force that takes much training so here there'll be very important to build the training buildings to improve cavalry quality. "Nobles" are the soft version of "knights" below.
- Horse farmer (militia cavalry), Stables (militia swordscavalry, militia spear cavalry), Cavalry stables (mounted sergeants, dark-age nobles, dismounted dark-age nobles), Elite cavalry stables (feudal cavalry sergeants, feudal nobles, dismounted feudal nobles).
- Cavalry training field (swordscavalry, spear cavalry, requires Stables),
Cavalry training grounds (dark-age knights, dismounted dark-age knights, requires Cavalry stables), Cavalry academy (feudal knights, dismounted feudal knights, royal knights, requires Elite cavalry stables).
- The cavalry tech tree above is adapted for catholic factions. Pagans will have more primitive cavalry, Rus will have druzhinas instead of royal knights and boyars instead of nobles, and perhaps more focus on light and missile cavs than on heavy knights. Muslims will use much lighter cavs and also unlike the others have camels, and little or no super heavy cavalry. Byzantines will of course have their cataphracts - but they'll be available earlier in the tech tree than catholic cavalry of the same class.

SWORDSMEN:
- Swordsmaker (sword militia, axe militia), Swordsmaker's workshop (militia swordsmen, militia axemen), Swordsmaker's guild (dark age men-at-arms militia), Master swordsmaker (feudal men-at-arms militia).
- Barracks (swordsmen, axemen, requires Swordmaker's workshop), Army barracks (dark age men-at-arms, requires Swordmaker's guild), Military academy (feudal men-at-arms, requires Master swordsmaker).
- Perhaps feudal men-at-arms should be available more easily than above on second thoughts but I'll edit it later. Saxons will have huscarles swordsmen and huscarles axemen rather than the generic units here as their best swordsmen. Welsh and Irish should perhaps use some kind of generic "celtic swordsmen" and "chosen celtic swordsmen" instead of the standard swordsmen. Irish should perhaps have the bonnachts and gallowglasses of M:TW (haven't checked about them yet). For scots there'll be highland clansmen, perhaps one unit of highland clansmen and a unit "elite clansmen" too.

SIEGE WEAPONS:
I suggest there'll be a lot of siege weapon crew mercenaries around, especially far south. However there should be some training facilities for siege weapons too, I think. I haven't planned those yet, though.

ACADEMIES
=========
Available to muslims, catholics and orthodox. Perhaps muslims should have more academy levels as they were better than the Christians at most sciences at this time.

WALLS
=====
I mentioned this in an earlier post, but:
- Wooden pallisade
- Wooden wall
- Large wooden wall (possible to move on top of it)
- Stone wall (possible to move on top of it)
- Large stone wall (possible to move on top of it)

I think it'd be fun to edit so that there can be a wooden type of wall that troops can move on top of. I don't yet know if it's possible to implement but I hope it is - otherwise we can stick to standard walls (slightly edited in look, though).

[Rodion Romanovich]

I am quite happy to join the team as a researcher.

You are very welcome, The Apostate!

- Magyars in 843 are pagan and remain so until 1000.
- Bulgars are also pagan but christianised in 867.
- The Danes, Poles and Rus (which is a better term than Novgorod) were still -Pagan in 843 and remained so til the later 10th century.
- It is highly debatable how Jewish the Khazars were - certainly some of their khagans were converted but the great majority of the population were either Pagan, Muslim or Christian - however I do love the idea of building synagogues...
- Conversion is thus a big issue in this period and as there is no way the AI will ever switch religions you will end up with half of your factions starting and remaining pagan.
- This is fine if you want a short campaign with lots of different pagan temples to add variety.
- However if you want the mod to be open-ended and allow development into the High Middle Ages you would be much better starting at 1000 - at which point almost everyone but the peoples around the Baltic have converted.
- While 843 is an era of fragmentation, in 1000 you have much more solid and organised states (although Bulgaria would have to go - disappearing in 1014).
- You also have no Fatimids in 843 and pretty much the whole Muslim world except for al-Andalus is part of the Abassid Caliphate - which the AI being what it is will end up swallowing everything just as Egypt does in RTW - whereas in 1000 you have Abassid, Fatimid and Umayyad Caliphates each of which is of roughly equal power.

The starting date has been a big issue that I've thought a lot about. I know that some of the attributes I've given to factions aren't true until some time after the starting date, but it was my intention to make a mod that approximately describes the entire era from starting date to ending date. Moving the starting date forward to 1000 AD is out of the question because that removes the focus from the viking era and there are already mods about those periods. I've chosen a compromise with a starting date in 843 to still be able to keep part of the dark age focus but without starting so early that normans and others would be so far out of the period that they couldn't be factions at all. This way, I can include normans and others even though they're slightly out of the period, in order to make the mod more interesting.

Some of your data above has led me to change my opinion, for example danes and Rus will be pagan, and Fatimids will be Al Andalus. Rebels in North Africa will be very strong, and the Abbassids will have very limited strength early. I'll keep testing until I find a solution that means they won't explode in power like R:TW Egyptians. Novgorod will be called Rus. Hungarians will also be pagan then.

However some things I don't think should be changed: Bulgars will be Christian in the game because 867 is so short after the starting date. The Khazars will be jewish just for the fun factor it adds to have another culture/religion in the game. I'll see if I can make their starting cities have pagan culture from start to give them a culture difference penalty to reflect that it was probably mostly the leaders who had converted, something that'll make the starting years harder for the Khazars. Conversion of any factions are as far as I know impossible to implement so that's why I've chosen to do it this way.

Re map I can't see much value in including the North Atlantic and Northern Scandinavia - which will just be dead space - just as much of the north and east of the RTW map is.

Personally prefer the Europa Barbarorum or Rome Total Realism maps which do not go as far north but do include Persia - where a lot more of interest is happening.

With an eastern-stretched map you also get to include the Turks as opponents for the Byzantines (again in 843 these are a minor confederation of tribes in Central Asia but in 1000 they control an empire covering much of Persia and the Indus Valley).

The reason for this was explained in a news post above. Those provinces are not intended for the player to capture, but if he wishes he can. They being there means the player can't just reach a map edge and eliminate one front to get rid of all problems and need for troops there, then direct all troops in another direction. This means a border along a steppes or desert line will be hard to hold. Not much action will take place far out on the steppes in the mod, but they definitely fill a function in my opinion, by forcing the player to keep a constant defensive force there. North Africa and the steppes will be so spread out that they should really be impossible to hold. Another reason for the expansion of map to the north is the focus on vikings - both their raids and the internal fighting that occurred. The turks don't become interesting until 1000 AD and that's so long after the campaign start that they shouldn't be a faction, because of my decision to stick to 843-1099 but otherwise they'd definitely have a place, and I'd have changed the map with more to the east and less to the north.

Don't think the papacy should be a state in this period (for much of it the Popes were corrupt puppets of the Roman nobility) and of course the Lombard League does not come into existence until the late-1100's (in 843 North Italy was part of the short-lived kingdom of Lotharingia which stretched from Rome to the North Sea and which represents another problem for an 843 start as it disintegrates within a generation).

Will you have a Marian reform event? - strikes me that the transition to the couched lance and crossbow which occurred in the early-mid 11th century would fit this (i.e. before the reform Frankish armies have relatively weak cavalry, after it they have real knights as well as crossbows and a better range of siege equipment - OTOH the Byzantines at about the same time would lose much of their Thematic troops and become more dependant on mercenaries).

I haven't planned any Marian reform yet so I haven't thought through the subject. If we stick to 843-1099, what reforms would be of interest?

It was my intention to represent the Papacy as a state in order to make "senate missions" and excommunication possible, but they aren't really more a state than the SPQR in vanilla R:TW is a state, it's just the only way to represent that. I agree that the Lombard league is out of the period (it was at the time of Barbarossa, wasn't it?), but I wanted a way of implementing the Italian city states as a strong faction enough to challenge the HRE. Rebels would just die too quickly and have no ability to retrain and strenghten their armies etc. It was my plan to have Lombard league as a methafor for this, just like the Greek cities in vanilla R:TW is a methafor for all the different greek city states - an emergency solution because there is the 20 factions limit. Perhaps they should be called "The Italian cities" instead of Lombard league?

I hope you're still interested in the mod despite these approximations of history I've been forced to make in order to be able to keep the time period 843-1099, which was the starting point when I decided to make this mod. It's my intention to stay as true to historical data as possible in all other aspects though, so a skilled historian is very much appreciated. In fact I believe the things I've mentioned here are the only diversions from real history needed, in practically EVERY other aspect there are no obstacles that I see that could prevent total realism.