Age of Vikings and Fanatics: Total war

[Rodion Romanovich]

A mod focusing on viking age as well as the other interesting wars that happened at the same time.

This post will be updated with details about progress of the mod.
- Research: 47 %
- Planning tech trees & units: 72 %
- Campaign map 17 %
- Buildings: 0 %
- Units: 0 %
- Testing: 0 %
- Planned release: probably July, August or September, earlier if more join the team

THE MOD TEAM RIGHT NOW
- LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix - project leader/campaign map maker/skinner/unit editor
- Captain-Tiguris - project leader/skinner/unit editor
- The Apostate - chief of research
- skeletor - skinner/unit editor
- ScionTheWorm - skinner/unit editor
- King Ragnar - researcher/skinner - not confirmed yet

Time:
=====
Starting date is 843 (Verdun treaty, which split up the Frankish empire into 3 parts), ending date is 1099 AD (the first crusade takes Jerusalem).

Focus/Background:
=================
The time when power over Europe and the Middle east was shared between the three superpowers the Frankish empire, the Byzantine empire and the Baghdad khaliphate is nearly over. The Frankish empire has been divided between the heirs of Charlemagne, the Byzantine empire has only just survived the muslim jihad and the schisms with the catholic church, and the muslims of the Baghdad khaliphate have now been split up in many smaller khaliphates and have lost their will to expand, and as a result, let their armies be weakened.

This is the perfect time for new tribes to establish kingdoms - or even empires. While the pagan vikings battle for the supreme control over Scandinavia, Denmark and other parts of Northern Europe (including the British Isles, Russia and the northern coasts of the Holy roman empire and France), Magyars and Bulgars are threatening to sack the once mighty Byzantine empire. At the same time in the Mediterranean area, North African pirates conduct raids similar to the viking raids, occupying among other places Sicily and threaten the Pope himself. Can the vikings hope to win a battle against more organized, richer enemies in the long term? Will the formerly great catholic empires survive the storm of raids and conquests and the fury of the norsemen? Will the byzantine empire survive attacks from all directions - both from their former catholic allies, from magyars, from slavic peoples moving in from the steppes to the east, and from Muslims? Can the peaceful eastern muslims survive the growing power of the pope and his will to create a Christian crusader kingdom in Jerusalem? For this is also the time of increasing religious fanatism - al-murabitin will try to conquer more of Spain, the kingdom of Asturia try to push back the moors into North Africa, and in the end of the 11th century, the very first crusade is launched.

The focus of the mod will be vikings and invasion of Britain and colonization of Russia. However in order to put the vikings into a historically correct context it's in my opinion necessary to display the rest of Europe, as many decisions to the south affected the situation to the north. And including the more southern areas also gives the mod another bonus. The southern nations have as a matter of fact a history nearly as interesting as, or even more interesting than, that of the vikings. This period is an often neglected one, which is a pity, considering that it's a time that's very well suited for a game/mod - there is a balance in power between the nations, and almost anything can happen.

Factions:
=======
REAL FACTIONS
- Norway - pagan
- Sweden - pagan
- Denmark - pagan
- Rus - orthodox
- Normandy - catholic
- Saxons - catholic
- Scots - catholic
- Irish - catholic
- Welsh - catholic
- France - catholic
- Holy roman empire - catholic
- Kingdom of Lotharingia - catholic
- Kingdom of Asturia - catholic
- Papal state - catholic
- Magyars - pagan
- Bulgars - orthodox
- Khazars - jewish
- Byzantine empire - orthodox
- Abbassids - muslim
- Al Andalus - muslim
- (and of course the Rebels)

Some units that'll be included:
======================
- Cavalry: Szekely heavy cavalry, Szekely horse archers, Feudal knights, Royal knights, Norman knights, Khazar royal cavalry, Druzhina cavalry, Boyars, Katapraktoi, Mamluk light cavalry, Camel warriors.
- Swordsmen: Swordsmen huscarles, Celtic swordsmen, Berserkers, Joms vikings, Slavic infantry, Feudal foot sergeants, Varangian mercenaries, Militia swordsmen
- Militia: Town watch, Urban militia, Urban guard.
- Axemen: Axemen huscarles, Varangian axemen.
- Spearmen: Fyrdmen.
- Siege weapons: Ballista, catapult, trebuchet.
- Missiles: Geneose mercenary crossbowmen, Welsh longbowmen, Welsh mercenary longbowmen.

Field combat:
=============
General's units will be extremely small, if possible only around 5 men or so but 20-50 for the faction leader.

Battle speed will be slow and infantry dominated except in the cases of skilled cavalry factions like the muslim factions and the magyars. The late cavalry units will also be more powerful and reduce the importance of the infantry again. Only special units like berserkers will use horde formation, all others will use line. The following classes of units will be included: spearmen, halberdiers (few), swordsmen, axemen, light cavalry, medium/heavy cavalry, cavalry archers (few), camels (muslim factions only), archers, crossbowmen, javelinmen.

The short spear spearmen will be modelled with normal formation. All spearmen with medium or long spears will be modelled using the phalanx formation. Balancing will be like this: if a spear unit engages swordsmen for a short time, the spearmen will inflict more casualties due to maintaining formation. Very low morale swordsmen can even be routed by them. Medium and high morale swordsmen (pretty much all non-militia) will soon break the formation of the spearmen and then the spearmen will be chanceless and quickly routed/killed. If sword meets spear the swords win in the long term, but spearmen can be more effective kill/death ratio-wise for holding a line a short period of time. Spearmen will have anti-cavalry bonus.

Halberdiers will appear very late. They will require high technology level and be modelled with normal formation. They'll perform well versus both spears and swords but be slightly weaker than swords during prolonged combat. They will be heavily armored and therefore very, very slow. As I said, halberdiers will be so high-tech and have so many training turns that they'll be rare on the battlefields.

Pikemen will only appear as rebels/brigands in Switzerland. They'll be based on R:TW pikemen with low attack and defense but effectiveness vs cavalry due to their very long spears.

Swordsmen will appear as the main battlefield unit. They'll have good defense but lower attack and charge stats, especially when they're heavily armored. Lighter swordsmen will be opposite but still not as good attackers as axemen.

Axemen will be quite rare but be low-tech and thus appear early, however 2 turns training for most of them and very low defense (thus very easily killed in action) will limit the amount of them that'll appear on the battlefields. Axemen will have minus bonus against cavalry.

Light cavalry will be of two types. 1. The militia/untrained cheap cavalry will just be like a weaker form of heavy cavalry. The central Europeans never implemented much high-quality light cavalry in this period, and most "light" cavalry in those armies were almost to be considered "failed attempts" at making a heavy cavalry force. 2. The professional light cavalry of the muslim factions and magyars (Hungarians) will have an anti-cavalry bonus and be very effective vs slower cavalry. This light cavalry is light by choice and specialists at fighting that way.

Medium/heavy cavalry is the cavalry intended for killing infantry. The Byzantines will have the fearsome cathapracts almost from start, but most others will have to wait long until they get hold of such beasts. They will instead stick with a medium cavalry with less armor but in return stronger charge due to lighter weight and slightly higher speed.

Cavalry archers will be rare (due to training time of 2 turns, low defense stats and restriction to only the muslims, khazars and magyars), but important key troops for those who can recruit them. Some will also be available as mercenaries, but hard for the European factions to get hold of until they reach far enough south/east/southeast.

Camels will have "frightens cavalry" attribute and also an anti-cavalry fighting bonus and a desert combat bonus. However they are slow and will therefore not perform well against faster light cavalry that can isolate and surround them.

Archers will appear early, from start. Archer quality will improve with building upgrades. The Welsh will have their famous longbowmen almost from start and they'll also appear as mercenaries there. Crossbowmen will appear later and also as mercenaries, near Genoa (genoese crossbowmen). Pavise crossbowmen will appear very late, and require 2 or 3 training turns. Their slow speed makes them less suited for skirmishing and are safest kept behind the line unlike archers which are faster. Some archers will be faster than the average archers too, for example bulgarian brigands which will appear as mercenaries in the area north of Constantinople.

Javelinmen will be cheap and some will use spear and javelin in combination. Most nations won't use the javelinmen much though, as they are partly outdated - at least as missile troops - compared to archers with their longer distance. Bulgars and magyars will have some javelinmen of better quality.

Sieges and assaults:
===============
Cities will have these levels of defenses: wooden pallisade (1 turn siege, 200 florins), wooden wall (2 turns siege, 600 florins), large wooden wall (1200 florins, 4 turns siege, possible to move on top of the wall, can use towers and saps to destroy it), stone wall (4000 florins, 6 turns siege), epic stone walls (8000 florins, 10 turns siege, Constantinople-like walls).

Forts will, if possible, exist in different shapes. Fortified camp (1 siege turns), Wooden fort (2 siege turns), Stone fort (5 siege turns), Citadel (10 siege turns). Forts will be much cheaper than city walls to build, perhaps costs should be 50 florins, 200 florins, 600 florins and 1200 florins, respectively. (If this isn't possible, the standard R:TW fort will be used, with 3 turns siege time.)

This will force the player to try and defend approaches to cities rather than cities, making it easier to lose - and take - the smaller and less important cities. Later, the player will however feel forced to fortify his most important cities.

Strategy:
=========
- 0 turns build time for militia and untrained, very weak units.
- 1 turn build time for most regular units.
- 2-3 turns build time for elite units or others that historically required much training.
- This will prevent armies from consisting purely of elite units.

- Pope: Pope will hand out orders/suggestions/missions to the major catholic factions (HRE, France, Lombard league). The pope is not very powerful at this time so he can't reach the other catholics well. If you play a major catholic faction and become too powerful, the pope will excommunicate you and after that there's no way back - the other major catholic factions will become your enemies.

- Vikings will start with easily available good units. Catholic and other factions will get better units later, but in some cases be in pretty difficult positions from start. Vikings and fatimids will have double movement points for most of their ships.

- Byzantines, Abbassids and Khazars and others who historically relied on mercenaries will need mercenaries much here too, by restricting traditional recruitment in different ways. Their economy will allow them to hire many mercenaries.

- City levels: village, town, large town, city, large city. All factions will be able to construct all city levels, although vikings and others will have very slow growth compared to others, and therefore will probably not build many large cities.

[Rodion Romanovich]

NEWS UPDATE May 4, 2005
====================
A first, temporary concept map for province distribution has been drawn. This map is NOT the final plan for provinces. The map does NOT show which faction will own which province from start, only where the province borders will be. I made it in a few minutes so it's not pretty, but should give you an idea of how the map will probably be in terms of province distribution, map edge positions and so on. This tempory, first sketch of a map features around 150-160 provinces. As more research is made, I might feel it's necessary to change parts of this map. ALSO NOTE... that victory condition will probably be changed to 30 provinces instead of 50.

--- REMOVED - OUTDATED ---

[Rodion Romanovich]

NEWS UPDATE
===========
Factions list updated. See first post.

These factions will be represented as rebels:
- Polans/Polish
- Almoravids
- Pechenegs
- Iceland
- Middle frankish empire
- Mercians
- Various smaller viking empires already existing at the starting date
- Serbia
- Croatia
- (maybe) Khwarazm
- Volga-bulgars

[Spongly]

If it starts in 843 the kingdoms of the Picts and Scots should both be Catholic, and are both ruled by one monarch - Cinaed MacAilpin.

[Rodion Romanovich]

If it starts in 843 the kingdoms of the Picts and Scots should both be Catholic, and are both ruled by one monarch - Cinaed MacAilpin.

Ok, I have only just begun the research, so your help is very welcome. Should scots and picts really be a single faction too?

[Meneldil]

After 843, they were. Pics disappeared quickly after this date. I also think they concerted to christianism way before 843, but I may be wrong on that

[Rodion Romanovich]

Ok. They're probably best represented as scots owning most of the territory but one or two provinces being rebels... I'll have a closer look at that soon. I'll start researching and deciding about factions very soon, then I'll fix the campaign map bit by bit.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Here's a slightly more pretty map. This is the first version of the campaign heights map, which will generate the landscapes. This is still work in progress, but could give you an idea of which parts of the world will be included on the map - the map edges are positioned where they'll be in the final mod.

[Rodion Romanovich]

NEWS - 2005-05-06
===============
1. FACTIONS
Factions have been decided now. Khazars will be kept, Polish will be represented as rebels. The reasons are the following:
- Khazar was a strong, united khaganate at the time.
- Historically, Poland wasn't united until long after the starting date. In fact, the Polish kingdom which was created long after the starting date was also eliminated shortly afterwards. Not until after the ending date of the mod did a strong Polish kingdom arise.
- Khazars means introducing another culture, which should make things more interesting.
- Khazars have interesting horse units and haven't been included in many games/mods before, so it'd be a nice change to play them.
- The Holy roman empire experienced it's strongest period in 900 AD, something that'll be represented in the mod if the Poland area is rebel-owned from start.
- Not having Khazars as a faction will allow Abbassid khaliphate and Novgorod to grow too strong.
- It is probably possible to make a mod to this mod that can remove Khazar and add Poland, so what I decide now doesn't matter that much.

2. FACTION DESCRIPTIONS
The research phase has begun and here are faction descriptions/plans for 7 of the factions.

Scots
=====
- Description: The Scots orginate from a tribe called the "Scotti" that lived in Hibernia, or Ireland. As long as the Romans stayed in Britain and represented a great threat to both Picts and Scots, the two people fought alongside each other, carrying out numerous raids and attacks on Roman positions. When the Romans left, Picts and Scots became rivals. From around 300 AD to 843 AD they fought a series of wars. A notable event during this period of violence was when the Scottish King Fergus in 500 AD invaded part of the Pictish territory in modern Scotland, establishing the kingdom of Dal Riada. However the Scots were often defeated by the fierce Picts and on several occasions Dal riada was ruled by Picts. This changed around 800 AD, when the Vikings started their raids on the British isles, primarily on the eastern coast where the Picts lived. The Picts were soon faced with a hopeless two-front war, and in a decisive battle in 839, the Picts were utterly defeated. During the coming five years, a period of several short reigns of many kings followed, until in 843 AD, when the new king of Dal riada, Cinaed Mac Ailpin, through bloodlines could easily claim the throne of the Pictish kingdom, thus uniting Picts and Scots again, although the Picts being the smaller group were eventually assimilated. The Scottish position in modern Scotland was strengthened while the Scottish positions in northern Ireland were assimilated by larger Irish tribes and viking invasions. Even though the Scottish position is quite strong at this time after the uniting of the two tribes, the viking raids and the strength of Saxons and other tribes further south will offer a tough challenge for the Scottish leader. They have an advantage in that they only have one front and quite defensible highland provinces, but their provinces are poor and can't support an army large enough to challenge the stronger factions to the south unless they expand aggressively from start. In the long term, the rising faction of Normandy will become a great threat too.
- Starting characters: King (Cinaed MacAilpin).
- Religion: Catholic.
- Surroundings: The Scotland area will consist of Dal riada (on the west coast), Northern Scotland, Middle Scotland and Southern Scotland. The latter three will need better names, and the correct capitals of the provinces must be researched. The Scots will from start own all of these provinces, but their army is weak and they barely have more than what's needed to maintain public order. The provinces are also poor, which requires a fast strike south if they are to improve their strategical, long-term strength which will be needed against the Vikings.
- Army: celtic warriors, highland clansmen, elite clansmen, good spearmen. Little and weak cavalry as long as they only own provinces in Scotland, but if they move south and conquer richer lands they'll be able to afford the support and training costs for better cavalry.

Irish
=====
- Description: The population in Ireland is mostly celtic, having lived on the island since the 1st century BC or earlier. Having originally been followers of pagan druidic religions, they were in 432 AD converted to Christianity by St. Patrick. From then and during the coming centuries the island prospered economically, culturally and technologically. But this mostly peaceful scenario was ended in the early 9th century, when Viking raids begun shaking the island and it's population. Apart from raids against monasteries and towns, some attempts at conquest were also made. In 831 the viking Thorgest sailed up the Shannon and established a kingdom in the Ulster and Connacht regions. Historically he was defeated by Malachy, King of Meath, who then proceeded by defeating another viking army at Sciath Nechtain, but that was not the end of the viking terror, which continued for some centuries. In 852 Olaf the White and Ivar Beinlaus conquered the area around modern Dublin and founded Dublin (although some sources indicate the city already existed under the name of Eblana). In 1014 AD the Irish won an important victory over the Norwegian viking Sigurd, who was defeated and killed in the battle of Clontarf, but at the cost of the Irish King Brian Boru dying too. The viking claims to the throne of Ireland stopped shortly afterwards, only to replaced by claims from the new Norman rulers of Britain. The Irish have a fine tradition of celtic warriors but their isolated position has made the need for a strong army limited, something that is gradually changing around 834 AD when the Viking raids are beginning en masse. The Irish must take up their old warrior tradition and strengthen their army in order to be able to withstand this terror - and perhaps also use that power to conquer new strategic positions. But from start, their main concern is the kingdom of the viking Thorgest, which must be taken if the Irish want a united Ireland, or Éire, as they call their island.
- Starting characters: King (Malachy).
- Religion: Catholic.
- Surroundings: Ireland will consist of 4 provinces - Ulster (northern Ireland - ?), Connacht (western Ireland - Limerick), Leinster (southeast Ireland -
Dubh Linn), Munster (southwest Ireland - Cork). The Irish will from start own Munster and Leinster, whereas the rebel family member Thorgest and his
vikings will control Ulster and Connacht.
- Army: non yet decided. Celtic warriors and good swordsmen will be important. The bonnachts and gallowglasses of M:TW will perhaps be included.

Saxons
=====
- Description: The saxons, the angli and the jutes invaded Britain in the 5th century following the roman withdrawal, and came to establish the strongest kingdoms in the area until the time of the viking invasion. When the Danish vikings started invading the island around 800 AD, the Saxons offered the strongest resistance, from 834 AD under the leadership of the famous Alfred the Great, who, historically, defeated the Danish viking Cuthrum of Danelagen (or the Danelaw) in the battle of Edington and forced a ceasefire which stopped the Danish expansion and created stability on the island for a while and eventually led to the Danes being thrown out of the British isles. But that was not the end of their troubles. More vikings would try to claim the throne of Britain, including Norwegians and Normans (Normandy was created by vikings) in 1066 AD. The saxons have a strong army consisting both of viking mercenary huscarles and local recruits such as fyrdmen, and it is for a good reason that they kept control over much of Britain up to 1066 AD. Perhaps, under a few generations of unbroken strong military leadership they could have gone even further...?
- Starting characters: King (Alfred the Great).
- Religion: Catholic.
- Surroundings: The Saxons are concentrated to the southern and eastern parts of Britain in a tough strategical position. However much of the land to the north will be owned by rebels (mercians, northumbrians etc.) but some will also be owned by the Danes, and there's also the Welsh with their skilled longbowmen if the Saxons move even further. The position is made even more problematic by the fact that it's surrounded by seas and the Saxon navy is no match for the viking longboats. Any expansion attempts will mean starting wars with several factions and unless one or two can be eliminated quickly the Saxons will have many tough centuries of fighting ahead of them. It isn't likely they'll be eliminated by the pressure - at least not in the short term - but they'll be forced to fight defensively for a long time which could weaken their strategic strength. And the many rebel territories to the north are probably easier for Danes than Saxons to capture so they probably won't be of much help.
- Army: Fyrdmen will constitute the main body of the Saxon army, but they'll be supported by huscarles swordsmen and axemen forming the elite, and a mounted nobility which will get stronger as the campaign proceeds.

Welsh
====
- Description: Since the centuries before Christ, Wales has been inhabited by Celtic tribes, among others the famous Silurii, who under the leadership of Caradoc defied the romans after Claudius's invasion of Britain. Wales was eventually captured, but the romans found the terrain difficult and the lack of agricultural land made their interest in the area limited, even though there were possibilities for gold mining and trade. When the romans withdrew, the saxons quickly conquered most of England, but had to stop when reaching Wales, because they couldn't penetrate the difficult terrain. Their expansion however isolated the Welsh from the other Celts in Britain and during the coming centuries their culture developed independently of the other Celts, resulting in a special language, special traditions and a unique warfare supported by the famous Welsh longbow. During this period, Wales was converted to Christianity and existed as a number of petty kingdoms. Not until in 820 AD did the Welsh tribes unite, under the leadership of Rhodri Mawr, also known as Rhodri the Great, who historically ruled the kingdom until in 877 AD. Having held off many invasion attempts from vikings and saxons, he was eventually defeated by vikings and had to flee to Ireland, where he stayed for a year before returning and attempting to reestablish his kingdom. However, weakened by the conflicts, he was killed in a battle against the Mercians. Wales only experienced unity occasionally during the coming centuries, partly due to the tradition of dividing the land between heirs, but remained independent from England until in the end of the 13th century.
- Starting characters: King (Rhodri the Great), Queen (Angharad).
- Religion: Catholic.
- Surroundings: Wales consists of difficult terrain that will be very defensible, but lack agricultural and trade resources. Perhaps the gold mining can help the Welsh, but they must also develop their army and form a professional, united army incorporating the terribly effective longbowmen to support their comparatively weak infantry. The position next to saxons is problematic, but there are also Mercian (rebel) territories to the northeast that's up for grabs. However, the mercians are strong, and the Welsh will have to increase the strength of their army before they can hope to destroy the Mercians. Perhaps, striking the Mercians first will be the best way of preventing them from striking first? But this will in return put the Welsh next to the Danish vikings, who have an even stronger army than the saxons (although much of it is kept in Denmark).
- Army: celtic infantry of good quality (but slightly weaker than the catholic units, especially the elite) to support the incredible longbowmen (and before the longbowmen comes, standard archers of extra high quality). Cavalry are weak and few in number because the poor homelands can't support much cavalry, but if they conquer richer lands there's no reason why they wouldn't be able to form a heavy cavalry force.

Bulgars
=======
- Description: The Bulgars originally migrated into the Balkan area from the east. Having conquered settlements north of Constantinople, they have by 834 AD become a threat even for the mighty Byzantine Empire. The leadership of the faction has only 3 years ago been handed over to Malamir, who historically is known for ordering the conquest of Aegean Macedonia and aiding the Smolyans, living in Aegean Thrace, rebel against the Byzantines. Malamir is part of the feared Ugain clan, where among others the feared Krum are included. Krum had, only a few decades earlier, put fear into the hearts of the Byzantines by defeating them in the open and by besieging Constantinople itself (however, the formidable walls of the city, as in so many other cases, saved it). The Bulgars are as a people outnumbered by the local slavic population, and might therefore have trouble holding their provinces. However, their armies are quite strong, even compared to those of the Byzantine empire, and if they can hold their territory and defeat other rising empires in the area, including the kingdom of Serbia, they have a potential to create a larger empire unless they're exhausted by the conflict with the Byzantines.
- Starting characters: King (Malamir), General (Kav-Khan Isbul, to the south near Aegean Macedon area which is rebel controlled from start).
- Religion: Orthodox. Historically the bulgars converted to orthodox faith in 864 AD, but no such conversion is possible to implement so it's probably best to represent them as Orthodox from start.
- Surroundings: In the battles where the bulgars aided the Smolyans, fierce battles broke out near Philippi and Siar. The Smolyans lived in Aegean Thrace, which should probably be an own province. Serbia must be a province, populated by rebels called "Serbians", who will have a quite strong army to reflect how they could manage to defeat the bulgars. Historically, Malamir was defeated by the Serbians in a war from 839 to 842 (however, losses were limited and no Bulgarian land was lost). Moesia should perhaps be a province, as it was conquered by Malamir during his reign. There will perhaps also be a province called Bulgaria, that the bulgars will of course own from start.
- Army: Not yet decided, but slavic infantry will constitute the main body of the army. Some cavalry and archers will support, including the bulgarian brigands which will be some of the best early, short-range archers. The bulgars will also have good javelinmen.

Khazar
======
- Description: The Khazars, like the Bulgars, originate from the Gokturk empire which was split up in the early 7th century. The bulgars were split up between the volga, danube and black sea area, while the Khazars stayed on the steppes a formed a strong united khaganate (which was however unlike Bulgaria eliminated in the long term). The Khazars were allied to the Byzantines during a long period, during which they aided the Byzantines in fighting many wars: against the sassanids (this gave the Khazars and Byzantines control over the Georgia region), the first Khazar-Arab war (which ended with the Arabs being defeated in a battle outside the Khazar town of Balanjar) and the second Khazar-Arab war (resulting in an attempt to arrange a marriage between the warring parts, but the Khazar bride died or was killed - it's unclear which way it was - and it took some more time until peace was achieved). The Khazars originally had a shamanist religion centered around worship of the sky god Tengri and the less important gods Umay (fertility goddess), Kuara (thunder god) and Erlik (god of death), but they were later also influenced by Confucian ideas from China. Like the Scythians, the Khazar women took part in war and governing and held a high status. Around 800 AD the leading Khazars however converted to Judaism and during the coming centuries the people followed, therefore there are still remnants of pagan religion in these areas although the faction has a Jewish religion. The Khazars had a friendly relationship to the Novgorod Rus but after 800 AD hostilities broke out and historically the viking attacks in combination with the Byzantines breaking the long alliance between Byzantines and Khazars led to the fall of the khaganate.
- Starting charachters: King (Bulan?).
- Religion: Jewish
- Surroundings: The Khazars own the area northeast of the Black Sea, including Georgia and areas next to the Caspian sea, including Armenian territory. They also own the Crimea and the Kiev area (however the latter with low public order and weak garrison), and the heavily fortified city of Sarkel at the Don basin. To the south they have the Khaliphate as neighbors, and to the west their allies the Byzantines. Most of the land between Khazar and Novgorod is rebel owned (including the Pechenegs to the east between Volga and the Ural mountains and the Volga-bulgarians next to Volga), but this doesn't mean the Khazars will have an easy time expanding as they wish. The steppes are hard to control due to brigands, large distances which lower public order, and long frontlines which will require a large army or tactical genius if the Khazars are to succeed in expanding much. A strike on the khaliphate to the south would give the Khazars control over some more stratetic lands, but the khaliphate has a strong army and this will in the long term make the Khazars rivals to the Byzantines - can they really afford to break such a strong alliance and make the Byzantines their enemies?
- Army: Khazar royal cavalry, some horse archers and muslim auxiliaries (Arsiyah) of Alan and Khwarazmian origin. Apart from the standing army of the leader (the Bek), the Khazars could also muster numerous levies in times of war. The Khazars have good cavalry but most of their infantry are temporarily recruited levies and/or auxiliaries so they can't rely much on their infantry line in battle. They also have formidable siege engines, for example used in the first Khazar-Arab war, which were probably kept after that. Pecheneg and perhaps also some varangian (Rus vikings) mercenaries were also used.

Magyars
======
- Description: Historically the Magyars moved into the Carpathian Basin around 830 AD, completing the conquest of the area in 896 AD. In 834 AD their empire is concentrated west of the Dnjepr and east of the Carpathian, owning little useful land but with a strong army of skilled horsemen that can support their infantry well. Their conversion to a catholic faith historically led to a good relationship to the Pope, perhaps because they challenged the orthodox power in the Balkans area and thus aided the Pope in the schism fights between catholic and orthodox faith.
- Starting characters: King (?).
- Religion: Catholic
- Surroundings: The magyars own no useful ground at the start, but a strong army, which they'll have to use to conquer some rebel provinces and establish a strong position in the Carpathian Basin area. They'll own Moldavia, and the Carpathia area is up for grabs. To the south there are the Bulgars, but there is a rebel buffer zone between them so the magyars don't need to worry about the Bulgars in a while, as the Bulgars have better provinces to conquer to the south - including Greece. The magyars have relatively little to worry about in terms of military opposition from start - to the north there are mostly rebels - but in the long term their position is problematic, and will most likely result in a conflict with the Holy roman empire, the Bulgars, the Byzantines and perhaps also the population of the Italian peninsula. The area north of the Balkans and south of Poland is perhaps the least strategic position there is at this time when not only the southern, but also the northern front is subject to raids and conquests from strong kingdoms.
- Army: In this period, the Szekely ethnic group constituted the elite of the Hungarian army, which of course also consisted of other ethnic groups in the area. The Szekely horse archers and heavy cavalry will be strong units in the early campaign.

[Rodion Romanovich]

NEWS UPDATE May 8th 2005
===========
Work on campaign map has started. Most provinces in Scandinavia, British Isles, Spain and North Africa have already been decided. More work is needed before provinces of central Europe, Asia minor, Middle east and eastern steppes have been decided - but for those areas, unlike those I have now completed, I'll probably use almost the same provinces as in M:TW.

I decided to throw away the map I've shown part of above, and restart the work on the campaign map, mainly because I want a different "density" of provinces, i.e. I want greater distances between the provinces in British Isles and other areas where there are many cities. The result of this enlargement of the map is that North Africa and the steppes will be harder to conquer and conquer - which is another thing I wanted to achieve. Those who play this mod are supposed to have great problems conquering and holding such areas that were historically hard to conquer and hold, and it should usually be more beneficial to move in another direction when expanding. Another result of this is that you can't simply conquer everything till your reach the map edge and then eliminate one front because the map happens to end there - it's now unlikely you'll ever conquer the provinces closest to the map edge and you can expect trouble there so you'll need to keep troops to guard that area too.

The map will probably also use different terrain, climate etc. than the vanilla R:TW map. The border between snow and no snow for the winter turns will be drawn further north than in vanilla R:TW (but high mountains will still have snow in the winter), to reflect the real situation. There was a small ice age in the 14th century but this is the middle 9th to late 11th century so the snow shouldn't reach that far south.

Screenshots for the campaign map from it's very first alpha state can probably be expected in two weeks.

[roysparky]

Sounds like you've put a lot of effort into the mod so far, great job. Let me know if you need any help.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Sounds like you've put a lot of effort into the mod so far, great job. Let me know if you need any help.

Yeah, I'd appreciate any help I can get . What skills do you have? Skinning and/or modelling? Historian/researcher? Coding?

[Spongly]

Ok, I have only just begun the research, so your help is very welcome. Should scots and picts really be a single faction too?

Yep, they should be called "The Kingdom of Alba" really. The Picts don't really disappear so much as they and the DalRiadan Scots unite into a single kingdom, in fact originally under the King of the Picts, Cinaed MacAlpin. The issue of language is a weird one - both people seem to have spoken Gaelic by this point, possibly under the influence of the Church in the area.

As to religion, the Picts were actually probably Christian from about the year 400 onwards. Bede tells us that St Ninian was the first to convert them.

[The Apostate]

I am quite happy to join the team as a researcher.

Did my degree in history specialising in late antiquity and early medieval period and have a big library covering the period.

Am particularly knowledgeable on the Byzantine and Viking worlds, less so on Islam.

No skill whatsoever as a modeller/skinner but am happy with changing the data export files so can help out there.

General comments:

Magyars in 843 are pagan and remain so until 1000.

Bulgars are also pagan but christianised in 867.

The Danes, Poles and Rus (which is a better term than Novgorod) were still Pagan in 843 and remained so til the later 10th century.

It is highly debatable how Jewish the Khazars were - certainly some of their khagans were converted but the great majority of the population were either Pagan, Muslim or Christian - however I do love the idea of building synagogues...

Conversion is thus a big issue in this period and as there is no way the AI will ever switch religions you will end up with half of your factions starting and remaining pagan.

This is fine if you want a short campaign with lots of different pagan temples to add variety.

However if you want the mod to be open-ended and allow development into the High Middle Ages you would be much better starting at 1000 - at which point almost everyone but the peoples around the Baltic have converted.

While 843 is an era of fragmentation, in 1000 you have much more solid and organised states (although Bulgaria would have to go - disappearing in 1014).

You also have no Fatimids in 843 and pretty much the whole Muslim world except for al-Andalus is part of the Abassid Caliphate - which the AI being what it is will end up swallowing everything just as Egypt does in RTW - whereas in 1000 you have Abassid, Fatimid and Umayyad Caliphates each of which is of roughly equal power.

Re map I can't see much value in including the North Atlantic and Northern Scandinavia - which will just be dead space - just as much of the north and east of the RTW map is.

Personally prefer the Europa Barbarorum or Rome Total Realism maps which do not go as far north but do include Persia - where a lot more of interest is happening.

With an eastern-stretched map you also get to include the Turks as opponents for the Byzantines (again in 843 these are a minor confederation of tribes in Central Asia but in 1000 they control an empire covering much of Persia and the Indus Valley).

Don't think the papacy should be a state in this period (for much of it the Popes were corrupt puppets of the Roman nobility) and of course the Lombard League does not come into existence until the late-1100's (in 843 North Italy was part of the short-lived kingdom of Lotharingia which stretched from Rome to the North Sea and which represents another problem for an 843 start as it disintegrates within a generation).

Will you have a Marian reform event? - strikes me that the transition to the couched lance and crossbow which occurred in the early-mid 11th century would fit this (i.e. before the reform Frankish armies have relatively weak cavalry, after it they have real knights as well as crossbows and a better range of siege equipment - OTOH the Byzantines at about the same time would lose much of their Thematic troops and become more dependant on mercenaries).

[tutankamon]

Hi great idea.. but why have you listed the Danes as a chatholic nation as I recall we didn't become real chatholic until 1099!

[Spongly]

As far as religion goes, could you not implement conversion in some other way?

For example, pagan temples give you various benefits, but after a fixed time period (like the Marian reform event) you get the option to build churches if you demolish the temples...the churches should give you big benefits to running a well organised and wealthy state in this period, so there should be some political incentive to convert....

[Rodion Romanovich]

I am quite happy to join the team as a researcher.

You are very welcome, The Apostate!

- Magyars in 843 are pagan and remain so until 1000.
- Bulgars are also pagan but christianised in 867.
- The Danes, Poles and Rus (which is a better term than Novgorod) were still -Pagan in 843 and remained so til the later 10th century.
- It is highly debatable how Jewish the Khazars were - certainly some of their khagans were converted but the great majority of the population were either Pagan, Muslim or Christian - however I do love the idea of building synagogues...
- Conversion is thus a big issue in this period and as there is no way the AI will ever switch religions you will end up with half of your factions starting and remaining pagan.
- This is fine if you want a short campaign with lots of different pagan temples to add variety.
- However if you want the mod to be open-ended and allow development into the High Middle Ages you would be much better starting at 1000 - at which point almost everyone but the peoples around the Baltic have converted.
- While 843 is an era of fragmentation, in 1000 you have much more solid and organised states (although Bulgaria would have to go - disappearing in 1014).
- You also have no Fatimids in 843 and pretty much the whole Muslim world except for al-Andalus is part of the Abassid Caliphate - which the AI being what it is will end up swallowing everything just as Egypt does in RTW - whereas in 1000 you have Abassid, Fatimid and Umayyad Caliphates each of which is of roughly equal power.

The starting date has been a big issue that I've thought a lot about. I know that some of the attributes I've given to factions aren't true until some time after the starting date, but it was my intention to make a mod that approximately describes the entire era from starting date to ending date. Moving the starting date forward to 1000 AD is out of the question because that removes the focus from the viking era and there are already mods about those periods. I've chosen a compromise with a starting date in 843 to still be able to keep part of the dark age focus but without starting so early that normans and others would be so far out of the period that they couldn't be factions at all. This way, I can include normans and others even though they're slightly out of the period, in order to make the mod more interesting.

Some of your data above has led me to change my opinion, for example danes and Rus will be pagan, and Fatimids will be Al Andalus. Rebels in North Africa will be very strong, and the Abbassids will have very limited strength early. I'll keep testing until I find a solution that means they won't explode in power like R:TW Egyptians. Novgorod will be called Rus. Hungarians will also be pagan then.

However some things I don't think should be changed: Bulgars will be Christian in the game because 867 is so short after the starting date. The Khazars will be jewish just for the fun factor it adds to have another culture/religion in the game. I'll see if I can make their starting cities have pagan culture from start to give them a culture difference penalty to reflect that it was probably mostly the leaders who had converted, something that'll make the starting years harder for the Khazars. Conversion of any factions are as far as I know impossible to implement so that's why I've chosen to do it this way.

Re map I can't see much value in including the North Atlantic and Northern Scandinavia - which will just be dead space - just as much of the north and east of the RTW map is.

Personally prefer the Europa Barbarorum or Rome Total Realism maps which do not go as far north but do include Persia - where a lot more of interest is happening.

With an eastern-stretched map you also get to include the Turks as opponents for the Byzantines (again in 843 these are a minor confederation of tribes in Central Asia but in 1000 they control an empire covering much of Persia and the Indus Valley).

The reason for this was explained in a news post above. Those provinces are not intended for the player to capture, but if he wishes he can. They being there means the player can't just reach a map edge and eliminate one front to get rid of all problems and need for troops there, then direct all troops in another direction. This means a border along a steppes or desert line will be hard to hold. Not much action will take place far out on the steppes in the mod, but they definitely fill a function in my opinion, by forcing the player to keep a constant defensive force there. North Africa and the steppes will be so spread out that they should really be impossible to hold. Another reason for the expansion of map to the north is the focus on vikings - both their raids and the internal fighting that occurred. The turks don't become interesting until 1000 AD and that's so long after the campaign start that they shouldn't be a faction, because of my decision to stick to 843-1099 but otherwise they'd definitely have a place, and I'd have changed the map with more to the east and less to the north.

Don't think the papacy should be a state in this period (for much of it the Popes were corrupt puppets of the Roman nobility) and of course the Lombard League does not come into existence until the late-1100's (in 843 North Italy was part of the short-lived kingdom of Lotharingia which stretched from Rome to the North Sea and which represents another problem for an 843 start as it disintegrates within a generation).

Will you have a Marian reform event? - strikes me that the transition to the couched lance and crossbow which occurred in the early-mid 11th century would fit this (i.e. before the reform Frankish armies have relatively weak cavalry, after it they have real knights as well as crossbows and a better range of siege equipment - OTOH the Byzantines at about the same time would lose much of their Thematic troops and become more dependant on mercenaries).

I haven't planned any Marian reform yet so I haven't thought through the subject. If we stick to 843-1099, what reforms would be of interest?

It was my intention to represent the Papacy as a state in order to make "senate missions" and excommunication possible, but they aren't really more a state than the SPQR in vanilla R:TW is a state, it's just the only way to represent that. I agree that the Lombard league is out of the period (it was at the time of Barbarossa, wasn't it?), but I wanted a way of implementing the Italian city states as a strong faction enough to challenge the HRE. Rebels would just die too quickly and have no ability to retrain and strenghten their armies etc. It was my plan to have Lombard league as a methafor for this, just like the Greek cities in vanilla R:TW is a methafor for all the different greek city states - an emergency solution because there is the 20 factions limit. Perhaps they should be called "The Italian cities" instead of Lombard league?

I hope you're still interested in the mod despite these approximations of history I've been forced to make in order to be able to keep the time period 843-1099, which was the starting point when I decided to make this mod. It's my intention to stay as true to historical data as possible in all other aspects though, so a skilled historian is very much appreciated. In fact I believe the things I've mentioned here are the only diversions from real history needed, in practically EVERY other aspect there are no obstacles that I see that could prevent total realism.

[Rodion Romanovich]

As far as religion goes, could you not implement conversion in some other way?

For example, pagan temples give you various benefits, but after a fixed time period (like the Marian reform event) you get the option to build churches if you demolish the temples...the churches should give you big benefits to running a well organised and wealthy state in this period, so there should be some political incentive to convert....

I don't know about that. Aren't marian reforms triggered in all "roman" factions simultaneously? I haven't really though about marian reforms much for this mods, but this idea of yours seems interesting - perhaps possible to include.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Hi great idea.. but why have you listed the Danes as a chatholic nation as I recall we didn't become real chatholic until 1099!

Sorry for that mistake, they'll be pagan in the mod

[Rodion Romanovich]

After some thinking I've come to the conclusion that I should probably try to add it so that factions can get their religion converted at different dates. Once I've fixed the campaign map and some of the basic unit editing I'll start looking at such features that would definitely add a unique flavor to this mod. But I'm eager to get a campaign map and some test units up quickly, I think it's easier to experiment once those basic details have been fixed.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Here's a temporary province and city list, The Apostate. In case you confirm your interest in helping with this mod, this is the first project I need help with from a historian. These things will be easy to change later even if I start coding with incorrect info here, but it'd be great to have an as accurate list as possible to start from when modelling the campaign map, to save work time etc.

Many of these cities were officially founded later than 843 but one can in some cases assume there were minor villages/towns in the area before that, however, other cities in these areas might have been of greater importance at the time, so the ones I've picked will probably in many cases have to be changed. I've also used much modern spelling for these names, I think it'd be better to use the old spelling if it's possible to find the old, local spelling and names for all these provinces and cities. I've written the list in this format: province_name - settlement_name, comments. We'll also need to fill the list with data regarding whether each settlement will be village,town, large town, city or large city from the start of the mod, as well as what resources and farm level the province should have.

NORWAY AREA
* Central Norway - Kaupang (position close to Oslo but further down the fiord)
* Trondelag - Trondheim
* Lofoten (both islands and part of the mainland, which is where Narvik is situated) - Narvik
* Northern Norway - Tromso
* Hafrsfjord (rebels) - Nord-Jaeren / Stafangr
* Finnmark (rebels) - Kirkenes, situated next to Barents Sea and modern Russian border

SWEDEN AREA
* Roslagen - Sigtuna
* Upland - Upsala
* Ostgothia - Visingso - BETTER CITY NEEDED (visingso is a small island in the lake in that province, whose southern part was used as a fortress - therefore not exactly a good settlement for this province)
* Waestrogothia - Skara
* Gotland - Visby - VISBY NOT BUILT AS AN OFFICIAL CITY AT THIS TIME, but one can assume there was a village/town there. It'll be a province poor in farming and trade of course, as it historically was until the time before the Hansa/Hanse (spelling?).
* Smaland - Kalmar - BETTER CITY NEEDED. THE PROVINCE IS HERE AS FOR STRATEGIC REASONS, TERRAIN IS HEAVY FOREST ETC. because this piece of land shouldn't be part of the Swedish holdings from start. The province name is also a modern one, a better suited old one would be appreciated.
* Samland? - ? - ALSO HERE FOR STRATEGIC REASONS. Any city or village name can do, preferably a city far to the north. This is the northernmost part of
* Halland? - ? - BETTER NAME NEEDED FOR THIS PROVINCE AT THIS TIME. I was considering to use Loedoese (Lödöse) as settlement for the province - at this time. I believe it was a minor trading center in Sweden through the rivers leading from Vaenern (Vänern), so it has stratetic significance even though it's importance might have been reduced later, when the leaders of Waestrogothia strengthened their control over the coastal area south of it and got better ways to the sea from Vaenern?

DENMARK AREA
* Skane - Lund - DON'T SURE IF SKANE WAS CALLED SKANE BACK THEN, AND THE CITY LUND WAS FOUNDED LATER, but one can assume there was at least some sort of settlement in the area. Better, older name for the settlement and province probably needed. Perhaps Lund wasn't among the more significant cities in this area either, so I'm open to better suggestions for settlement name for this province, that constitutes the southernmost part of modern Sweden.
* Zealland - Roskilde (the dot on the map is correctly located now)
* Holseta Land / or Nordfriesland? (in modern Schleswig-Holstein area) - Haithabu / or Hedeby, was the largest nordic city of the viking age according to my sources, therefore it should be a quite big city and not just a town or village.
* North Jutland (northern Jutland) - Viborg - better province perhaps name needed. Settlement will perhaps have good fortifications from start.
* East Jutland (better province name needed, East Jutland is an incorrect representation) - Jelling/Jellinge (the city dot is now correctly located)

ICELAND AREA
* Iceland - Reyjkjavik (village/town) - only one province, so name Iceland is given. However I'm not sure about existence of Reyjkjavik at that time, or the spelling for that part...

IRELAND AREA
I was planning to use the province names below, which are the same as the parts of modern Ireland. I believe it's the best way to split up Éire, because the borders of the viking-conquered areas were almost the same. For example Thorgest will own Ulster and Connacht from start. I'm not entirely sure about the cities though, especially not for Ulster, where I haven't even made any suggestion.
* Ulster - ?, I have no idea what city we should use for this province?
* Connacht (western Ireland) - Limerick (town)
* Leinster (southeast Ireland) - Dubh Linn (town)
* Munster (southwest Ireland) - Cork (village/town)

FINLAND AND BALTICUM AREA
* Karelia (west of Lake Ladoga but not blocking Baltic port for Novgorod province) - ?, I think Finland should be split up into more than one province because of the viking focus of the mod. This will of course be compensated by very low farm income etc. for each of the provinces - conquering them will probably require almost as much garrison cost as it'll contribute to economy.
* Finland (rest of Finland, pretty much) - ?, better name perhaps needed for province. Settlement needed.
* Soumissalmi - ? (village) Where does this place lie? I just heard the name, not sure where it is though. Is this a part of northern Finland? For strategical reasons I'd like to have Finland represented by 3 provinces - Finland, Karelia (with corrections if historical data contradicts these names etc.) and one more to the north.
* Livonia (Estonia and Latvia area) - ?, settlement name needed.
* Lithuania - ?, settlement name needed.

RUSSIA AREA
* Novgorod - Novgorod
* Kiev - Kiev
* Smolensk - ? WHERE PUT SMOLENSK? ACCORDING TO MY SOURCES BULGARIANS AIDED SMOLYANS VS THE BYZANTINES, aren't smolyans the people of Smolensk? Shouldn't that mean Smolensk is close to Bulgaria area? But M:TW map suggests they're further to the north... Help needed!
* Volga-Bulgaria - ?, settlement name needed
* Muscovy - not sure about this one, should it be included? Perhaps better provinces for steppes and Russia area should be used.
* 1 or 2 provinces probably needed between Kiev and Constantinople for Pechenegs and other tribes that had some significance in the area. I can't come up with a good province plan for that area though. Also see East Europe Area below...

STEPPES AREA
* The Crimea - ?, city needed
* Khazar - ?, city needed
* Georgia - ?, city needed
* ...other steppe provinces not planned, needs to be done. Khazar should own several provinces, not just one, so a good, historically relevant splitting up of the area into 1-3 provinces would be good

EAST EUROPE AREA
Many of these need an appropriate city (not sure about provinces either - especially not the Greece area):
* Volhynia? - ?
* Poland - ?
* Prussia? - ?
* Wallachia
* Carpathia
* Bulgaria - Bolgar
* Moldavia
* Macedonia - ?
* Athens? - ?
* Pelopponesse? - ?
* Croatia - ?
* Serbia - ?
* Hungaria? - ? - probably not good province name as hungarians were magyars then, or?
* Austria - ? also probably not very good...
* Bohemia - ?

GERMANY AREA
Same here (not sure about provinces either):
* Saxony - ?
* Pomerania?
* Bavaria - ?
* Swabia? - ?
* Tyrolia? - ?
* Switzerland? - ?
* Friesland? - ?
* Franconia? - ?

WALES AREA
Not very thoroughly researched, but here's a list of some provinces chosen from the M:TW-VI map. A total of 3 provinces is IMO perfect for the game representation of this area, but I don't know if I chose the best 3 provinces:
* Pouis? - ?
* Clwyd? - ?
* Guent? - ?

SCOTLAND AREA
Same as for Wales here...
* Dal riada (western Scotland) - ?
* Moray (northern Scotland) - ?
* Athfotla (middle Scotland) - ?
* Cyil (soutwest Scotland) - ?
* Fib (southern Scotland) - ?

ENGLAND AREA
Same as for Wales here, although I've slightly more control here I think (ahem... hope... ):
* Northumbria - ? (northwest England)
* Beornice - York (east England)
* Mierce/Mercia - ? (middle England)
* West seaxe - ?
* Suth seaxe (southeast of West seaxe)
* Middle seaxe (below Mercia)
* East engle (east England south of Beornice)
* Cerniu - southwest England (is this one supposed to be Welsh-owned from start by the way?)

SPAIN AREA
these need to be checked too. Should Catalonia be a separate province or should I expand Aragon slightly? Which of the cities should I choose for Leon? The latter would be more strategically fun due to it's position at the coast, far away from the other provinces. Which provinces should be owned by Al Andalus and which by Kingdom of Asturia from start?
* Navarre - Pamplona (city)
* Leon - Leon, or Santiago de Compostela
* Portugal - Lissabon
* Andalusia - Sevilla
* Cordoba - Cordoba
* Granada - Granada
* Valencia - Valencia
* Castile - Toledo
* Catalonia - Barcelona
* Aragon - Zaragosa

FRANCE AREA
These provinces need so thorough checking... I did this way too quickly...
* Aquitaine - Bordeaux?
* ? - Orleans
* Ile de France? - Paris?
* Champagne - ?
* Burgundy - ?
* Normandy - ? I wouldn't mind having Normandy represented by more than 1 province in order to strengthen the normans somewhat, but I don't know what those provinces would be called then.
* Britanny - ?
* Flanders - ?
* Alsace - ?
* Toulouse - ?
* Provence - ?
* Lorraine? - ?

ITALY AREA
* Genoa - Genoa
* Venice - Venice
* Milan - Milan
* Tuscany - Florence
* Naples - (byzantine-controlled I believe) Naples
* Sicily (rebels) - Palermo?
* Papal states - Rome (owned by Pope)

NORTH AFRICA AREA
* Morocco - ?
* Algeria - ?
* Tunisia - Tunis
* Sahara - ?
* Libya - Tripoli
* Cyrenaica? - Barka
* Western Egypt - Siwa?
* Nile delta - Alexandria (large city)
* Egypt - Cairo (city) - better name probably needed. Entire Egypt area needs to be fixed, I think.
* Nubia/Abyssinia - ? (town) - although the map won't reach down to Nubia it'd probably be best to have a nubia province. Why? Because in order to get Nubia I'd have to move southern edge of map down and add LOADS of useless desert to the west. By having a fake Nubia a little too far north you can still make them affect the gameplay. However your historical expertise will have to decide if they're important enough to make it worth including them this way. My intention for the province was to have it as only recruit zone for abyssinian guard and/or nubian mercenaries and normally recruitable troops.
* Sinai - ?

ASIA MINOR AREA
* Constantinople - Constantinople (large city)
...the rest not planned yet... Georgia planned though (see steppes provinces). Need help here in order to know which provinces and cities were most important at the time.

MIDDLE EAST AREA
? Not planned yet, but Jerusalem and Antioch will be included. Baghdad also, of course. Province Arabia should have either Mecka or Medina as city, probably Medina unless we want to move the city slightly more north than it in reality is - something I personally don't mind for this or for Nubia, but you might not and besides if we can choose Medina and have it in correct position that's probably better. It also comes down to which city would have most significance at the time. Mecka was of course of religious importance but how were the two in terms of economical/strategical importance? Which one should be on the map to represent Arabia? I believe Mosul should also be one of the cities included in this area. Damascus too.

MEDITERRANEAN ISLANDS
* Baliares - ?
* Corsica - ?
* Sardinia - ?
* Siciliy - ?
* Cyprus - ?
* Crete - ?
* Rhodes - ?

This counts for a total of 123 provinces, plus approximately 20 in the areas that have not yet been planned.

I'll below post the map so we can discuss redrawing of some borders and you can download and draw notes on it in Paint or something to aid the discussion of these provinces and settlements. Put a black pixel for a settlement and a white pixel for a port. A province can be marked by either a red line around the province or by coloring the entire province in a unique color, then I'll understand what you mean.

[skeletor]

I ton't think you shuld use Oslo as a city. At startingdate, it was only a village (Oslo is celebrating it's 1000nd year this year. The largest city in this area war Kaupang (located a bit further down the fjord, on the west shore).
Kaupang was presumably the largest tradecenter in Norway before 1000ad.

google Kaupang

-Skel-

[Rodion Romanovich]

Ok, thanks, I've edited it now.

[Meneldil]

These maps might help you :



http://www.euratlas.com/big/big0800.htm#%20here

[Rodion Romanovich]

These maps might help you :

Yes, thanks a lot. I'll edit the province list above when I've had a closer look at the maps and decided how they would best be converted into R:TW engine provinces.

NEWS UPDATE May 11th 2005
===========
Campaign map screenshots postponed. Reasons: 1. Looks like there are more people interested in joining the mod team. This requires some time for planning and coordinating at this stage which takes time from the modding, but in the long term this will be returned by higher quality and faster progress once the planning and coordinating has been done. 2. Doing more detailed planning of provinces before starting will probably save time later, which means the mod as a whole will be complete faster. However this won't prevent me from working on the campaign map terrain, climates etc. so I'll spend some time fixing that while the planning and coordination goes on.

[Lasias Wenson]

The danish cities you listed weren't were important in the 9th century.

On Zealland, Copenhagen was a very small town. The city Roskilde (situated were you placed Copenhagen) was very important as it was the capital of Zealland before Denmark were united.

In North Jutland, Viborg was the most important town, it was another danish capital before Denmark was united. I think it actually was one of the danish fortifications.

Odense (my home town) was very small at this time and should not be a province capital, instead it should be Jelling (english) or Jellinge (danish) as it was the capital of the united Denmark. It was positioned were you placed Odense on your map (Odense really lies on the island in the middel of Denmark).

I don't think you should include an East Jutland as there was no really important town there.

[Rodion Romanovich]

@Lasias Wenson: Thanks for your help! I've now corrected the list according to the info in your post.

[The Apostate]

Will look at provinces and cities in detail over the weekend.

In the interim some more general comments about the starting date and factions.

Agree if the focus is to be the Vikings and it is not going to be just another medieval mod then 1000 is too late.

However for various reasons 843 is still too early and IMO 911 would be better:

1-3 Norway, Denmark and Sweden

Historically these were not unified kingdoms in 843 but collections of kingdoms and jarldoms.

The armies that ravaged NW Europe in the 860's and 870's were actually collections of raiding kings and jarls.

So obscure is this period that we're not even sure where in Scandinavia the most famous raiders came from and there are major questions about the identity of figures like Ivar the Boneless and Olaf the White (AP Smyth's Scandinavian Kings in the British Isles is the best book on this period but almost unobtainable).

Places like Dublin have yet to be founded or are just raiding camps.

By 911 the 3 Scandinavian kingdoms are a lot closer to unification and we have a lot more detail on rulers, towns etc as we are entering the main saga age.

While 843 has the attraction of being before the great Viking raids and invasions of the mid and late 9th century, in practice the AI will never send armies and fleets out of Scandinavia anyway (they will also have this problem with the Barbarian Invasions XP and it will be interesting to see if they can fix it and make the barbarians attack Rome instead of attacking the barbarian faction nearest to them).

In fact I hardly ever played the MTW VI campaign precisely because the AI vikings never attacked, while if you played as vikings even with the plunder rule you never had the money to establish survivable bridgeheads.

In 911 there are well established Viking colonies in Dublin, Iceland, Orkney, Man, York and the Danelaw (Normandy and Russia are separate issues) - of course it will be fudging it to give these to the Danes and Norwegians as they were mostly independent states but doing so will make the Viking factions much more aggressive and likely to attack the Scots, Irish and Saxons rather than each other.

4-7 Welsh, Scots, Irish and Saxons

Similarly while in 843 all of these peoples are divided into multiple kingdoms (Kenneth MacAlpin only attacked the Picts in 843 and never subdued Strathclyde) with a bit of fudging they are all much more united by 911.

Wessex in particular is just one of three Anglo-Saxon kingdoms in 843 but rules all of England that is not Danish in 911.

8 Normandy

There is no Normandy in 843 as the Normans are still all in Scandinavia.

If you want the Normans as a distinctive culture with christianity, knights, motte and bailey castles etc the earliest you can do that is 911 when Hrolf the Ganger is granted Normandy

9 Rus

The early history of the Rus is still a mystery but it is fairly clear that while there were individual bands of Varangians carving out principalities for themselves in 843, to have a unified Rus faction that is distinguished from the Vikings and otehr Slavs you again need to start in 911 - at which point we have Grand Princes based at Kiev who actually sign a treaty with the Byzantines that very year.

10-12 Magyars, Khazars, Bulgars

In 843 the Magyars, Khazars and Bulgars are all pagans but by 911 the Bulgars are Christian and the Khazars (or at least their rulers who are what matters at our level) are Jews.

In addition in 843 the Magyars are still subject to the Khazars and living on the steppes, whereas in 911 they have moved to Hungary and became a major military power.

13 Poles

in 843 we do not even knew if there was a Polish tribe and the dominant Slav power (and the only one significant enough to be a faction) is Moravia.

Although in 911 the Poles were still insignificant they were a lot closer to their actual emergence into history in the mid-tenth century.

14-16 Muslim States

If you want a mod that reflects the whole 843-1099 era then you really need three Muslim factions: Umayyads in Spain, Fatimids in North Africa and Abassids in Iraq.

Problem is in 843 there were no Fatimids - the family only established themeselves by seizing Tunis in 909.

Instead you have a vast Abassid Caliphate stretching from the Atlantic to the borders of China which the AI being what it is will raodily conquer the rest of the world and represent little challenge for a player.

However by 911 the Abassids have broken down into a number of more manageable states (most of which other than the Umayyads and Fatimids still paid lip service to the caliph in Baghdad).

If you choose 911 Spain to goes to the Umayyads, Tunisia and Algeria to the Fatimids and if you give the Abassid provinces in Egypt and Persia high unrest and small garrisons so they quickly revolt you should have playable Muslim factions.

17 Italians

843 presents the problem of Lotharingia.

As the map in Meneldil's post shows very clearly there was a big Frankish kingdom stretching from the North Sea to Rome under the Emperor Lothar I.

However this broke up in 855 on Lothars death into the kingdoms of Italy, Lorraine and Burgundy and within a generation Lorraine and Burgundy had further subdivided into Upper and Lower states.

Italy however was still a unified kingdom in 911 and remained so until Otto II crossed the Alps in 962 and refounded the Holy Roman Empire.

Thus while a separate Italian faction is wrong for 843 it is valid for 911.

There is some question about how far south they will go - in 843 and 911 the Byzantines held the southern coasts (and until 878 part of Sicily) and there were several independent Lombard principalities SE of Rome - these could either be rebels or part of Italy.

18 Byzantines

Byantium in 843 was a relatively weak state under an infant emperor (Michael III) who was the last of his dynasty.

It is also beset with rebellions by Iconcolast and aulician heretics who at several points control much of the empire.

By 911 we have a well-established and long-lasting dynasty (the Macedonians who lasted from 867 to 1056) in control and the empire is beginning its reconquests (but is not the superpower it was in say 1025 by which point it had abdsorbed Bulgaria, Syria, Armenia, the eastern Mediterranean Islands and South Italy).

Asturias

Dubious about including Asturias as a faction as they pretty much did nothing except cower in their little corner until the Umayyads disintegrated in the mid-eleventh century and even then split up into Castile, Leon, Aragon etc as they began the reconquista.

Consequently I would just make them powerful and aggressive rebels


19-20 France and Germany

in 843 these are both ruled by Carolingians but by 911 the German Carolingians have gone and were being replaced by the Saxon kings, while in France the last Carolingians are being displaced by the Capetians.

21 Rome

The papacy will always be a problem.

In the ninth and tenth centuries Rome was effectively a city state ruled by rapacious local nobles who put corrupt and frequently degenerate puppets on the Papal throne while real power was held by a figure known as the Consul or Senator (there was no longer a senate in Rome).

Even after Otto II took the city in 962 it still took several generations before the Cluniac reforms made the Papacy the authoritative institution we love or loathe today.

If you're stuck woth the Senate-Family relationship I suppose you can make the Julii France, Brutii Germany and Scipii Italy in which case they won't attack each other (which is not historically accurate) and the conquest of Rome is equivalent to the same event in RTW.


This adds up to 22 factions with the rebels so you'd still have to drop someone - my candidate would be the Welsh who were by far the weakest and most disunited of the peoples of the British isles and better left as rebels.

Of course one can hope that the new XP will remove the faction cap but nothing I've seen so far suggests that it will.

[The Apostate]

Several typos in last post - the aulicians mentioned under Byzantines should be Paulicians, others are fairly obvious.

[The Apostate]

Some thoughts on conversion:

What we need for the Norwegians, Danes, Swedes, Rus and Magyars are tech tree that are pagan at the lower levels and christian at the higher.

So is it possible to have say temples to Odin at levels 1-3 but a Christian Mission at level 4?

Higher level military and economic would also be made dependant on the Christian Mission being built.

i.e. without conversion the pagans stay at the same restricted levels as barbarians in RTW and with it they can get access to the same stuff as Christian feudal states.

While on the subject some more variety to Christian buildings would be nice - Churches dedicated to Saints and Monastic orders would give different types of bonuses (yeah I know these are all fantasy elements but are still worth considering).

For instance the famous shrine to St Michael the Archangel at Monte Gargano in Southern Italy attracted Norman pilgrims who ultimately set up a state there.

You could either have this as a wonder (The Holy Sepulchre at Jerusalem, Grand Mosques of Damascus and Cordoba, Hagia Sophia at Constantinople, St James at Compostoella and St Peters at Rome could be the other wonders) or as a church that can only be built in a province with a hidden resource of St Michael - so you can't have cathedrals of St Michael turning out +3 exp troops all over Europe.

Sts George and Demetrius fulfilled a similar role as warrior saints in the orthodox world (in fact most of our depictions of Byzantine soldiers are actually depictions of the these saints and of old testament kings)

Benedictine monasteries would also give agricultural bonuses, Marian churches fertility bonuses etc.