Cavalry Charge

**artavazd** · 05-02-2005, 09:52

I have alwasy been curiouse about how a real life charge would work. Its pretty easy to imagine the impact the horse will have running at say 40 miles an hour ( 65 kilometers ) and slamming into a human being. But what i have a hard time imagining is how the rider fights while the horse is in ful charge. He has his spear which he thrusts into the enemy. Now if he does this at that speed can he hold on to the spear as it makes contact with the enemy? or did they let go of the spear as soon as it made contact. Im also guessing that once the charge was over they didnt have use of their spears becasue it wold have been in the bodies of the enemy. I have an idea of how the charge worked, but im not quite sure. If any one knows about this topic i would appricated if u would inform me thanks.

**The Stranger** · 05-02-2005, 12:45

i know in medieval period, the knights charged with their spears and after 1st impact most lances were broken and throwed away if not broken just dropped. after that they drawed their swords, and fought on. that's why most knights were used later on cause they were weakened after their 1st charge if you used them too soon, their effect was wasted because the other side was still strong enought to recover from the blow while the knights had no lances anymore for another charge. but in battles that lasted for days, the went back to get new lances

**ZZR Puig** · 05-02-2005, 16:36

I think that some of your thoughs could be true, as that the spears should be broken or simply stuck in someone's body, so they should try to use a secondary weapon. That is not represented in the game, so it's probably not very realistic in this aspect.

Anyway, I don't believe that the horses charged at 65 km/h. They were not race horses, they were wearing some armour tehmselves and the rider on them surely wasn't as light as a jockey, and he also weared armour and hold some quite heavy weapons. Additionaly, the ground wouldn't probably be flat enough to allow maximum speed. In roman times, considering they hadn't stirrups, they surelly wasn't able to charge at that speed without falling themselves to the ground on impact. I think a quite large horse at about 30 km/h would be more than enough to effectively knock off some men and be able to get advantage of the disrupted formation.

**The Stranger** · 05-02-2005, 16:41

that lance breaking thing is actually there, but i doesn works that right. after a charge they don't switch to secundairy but only after a while, and by then most fights are over. i you dan't like that push "alt+right click at the unit" for switching to secundairy weapons. highly recommended for catapharact camels and normal cataphracts as they have a mace that has Armour Piercing

**BDC** · 05-02-2005, 16:53

I suspect that simply having a heavy horse and rider hit a group of people would knock over and break quite a few of them straight out. Add to that a lance and a disrupted or unprepared formation...

**cunctator** · 05-02-2005, 20:09

Originally Posted by ZZR Puig

I think that some of your thoughs could be true, as that the spears should be broken or simply stuck in someone's body, so they should try to use a secondary weapon.

In roman times, considering they hadn't stirrups, they surelly wasn't able to charge at that speed without falling themselves to the ground on impact.

Stirrups are not necessarily needed for a strong charge. It`s the saddle that gives the rider most hold. Also if the lance break or not on impact depends on the used tactic.

**Titus Livius** · 05-02-2005, 20:24

Ever been around a horse?

They don't need to be going very fast to have a devastating effect on you. From what I know of cavalry, charges at top speed were unheard-of. A little faster than a quick trot was preferred.

This is, incidentally, a major problem I have with the game. Certain "elite" units (an unwelcome throwback from hit point-based RTS games) seem able to stand up to a cavalry charge despite being hit from behind or the flank, at full charge. Many times I have watched my cavalry charge a group of marching hoplites from behind (or even skirmishers), impact, and watch as the hoplites stop leisurely, turn, and defend.

If cavalry, or any unit, really, hits you from the rear, that unit should immediately rout, period.

And thanks to the Delayer for the excellent photograph.

**Old Celt** · 05-02-2005, 21:33

Real life charges were intended to skewer an enemy (or two) with one thrust, then the secondary weapon would be deployed. If a lance was used, and broken, it could be used as an effective club, but generally, some secondary weapon was equipped.

I think RTW cavalry charges will break any infantry unit (even elite ones) if the attack is from the rear, and wedge formation is used. It is also much better to have 2 units charging from different angles to consistently demolish some heavy infantry units.

I've been experimenting recently with Numidian Cavalry, and found that they can effectively destroy Principes when 2 units charge from the rear using the Alt+Attack with skirmish and missile options turned off. This works even in regular formation, which is surprising with such a light cav unit.

**econ21** · 05-02-2005, 21:50

Originally Posted by Titus Livius

This is, incidentally, a major problem I have with the game. Certain "elite" units (an unwelcome throwback from hit point-based RTS games) seem able to stand up to a cavalry charge despite being hit from behind or the flank, at full charge.

Um, first time I have heard someone say cavalry charges are too weak in RTW. Did you ever play MTW? They seem massively stronger now despite the cavalry being historically weaker.

I tend to regard RTW units as representing bigger units. So I agree a cavalry charge against hoplites who were only say four men deep would be pretty horrendous (although I still have trouble thinking about horses charging into a solid wall of men). But presumably historically, ancient infantry were in more dense - ie deeper - units. In which case, you would have thought the cavalry would lose momentum and the conflict become a little more even.

I suspect a typical Roman legionnary formation of the period might be able to survive a rear charge by most cavalry of the day, if their morale held. More historically knowlegeable members might be able to correct me on this, however.

**Evil_Maniac From Mars** · 05-03-2005, 22:34

Originally Posted by Titus Livius

If cavalry, or any unit, really, hits you from the rear, that unit should immediately rout, period.

Yup, I'd be screaming my ass off before I even knew what happened. Then if I saw knights chasing me with swords......

**Rodion Romanovich** · 05-02-2005, 18:48

You lift the lance upwards right after the charge, then lower it again. That way you get another type of collission. If the target is lightly armored and the lance sharp enough the energy is transformed into destruction energy rather than movement energy and the impact isn't that problematic.

The big problem is that horse and rider isn't one unit. Using the lance will throw the rider out of the saddle, backwards upwards, which means a faster, stronger horse isn't necessarily an as big improvement as some people think. Which also, in return, means that the ancient charges weren't necessarily that much less powerful than the Medieval charge.

**artavazd** · 05-05-2005, 07:13

in rtr 5.4 i started a campaign as armenia and man was it hard!!! i was playing on medium and i lost everything to the parthians. They kept on comming with full stacks of ha and cataphracts when i read their description card it said that they are auxilaries of the Selucids and their upkeep cost was very low im confused can someone help me on the subject?