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Thread: The people have spoken - ENGLAND wanted a Tory Govt

  1. #1
    For England and St.George Senior Member ShadesWolf's Avatar
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    Default The people have spoken - ENGLAND wanted a Tory Govt

    During the election, 60,000 more people voted for the Tory party than Labour in England. But they got 92 less seats.

    It is time that Scottish and Welsh MP's have to make a joice, do they want to sit in their own parliament and make no entry into wetminster, or do they sit in westminster only.

    How can a country have the same people making two different decissions on the same subject for different parts of the country.

    Why should Scottish MP vote on matter that effect England. Why are things not good for Scotland, but the same thing is good for England.
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    Pining for the glory days... Member lancelot's Avatar
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    Default Re: The people have spoken - ENGLAND wanted a Tory Govt

    Quote Originally Posted by ShadesWolf
    During the election, 60,000 more people voted for the Tory party than Labour in England. But they got 92 less seats.

    It is time that Scottish and Welsh MP's have to make a joice, do they want to sit in their own parliament and make no entry into wetminster, or do they sit in westminster only.

    How can a country have the same people making two different decissions on the same subject for different parts of the country.

    Why should Scottish MP vote on matter that effect England. Why are things not good for Scotland, but the same thing is good for England.
    Couldnt agree more.

    Either remain in the Union or get out, the time to have cake and eat it should have ended a long time ago...

    And with regard to your comments on the tories getting 60000 more votes..I havent seen the figures yet but assuming you are correct it seems this could be a no better indication that the 'first past the post' system needs to go. By these figures a 'proportional representation' type ballot would have got the tories victory...
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    probably bored Member BDC's Avatar
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    Default Re: The people have spoken - ENGLAND wanted a Tory Govt

    We need proportional representation. It's daft Labour get 36% of the vote and a large majority, whilst Lib Dems get 22% and next to nothing.

    And the whole devolved parliaments thing needs sorting out. Currently Scottish MPs have to sit in Westminster because lots of decisions affect Scotland and England, so they have to be there to vote on them. They really shouldn't vote on things which have no affect on Scotland though.

    I think Wales, England and Scotland (and Northern Island if they can sort themselves out) all need proper regional parliaments, whilst for national issues another parliament can sit in Westminster (ie defence and foreign policies).

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    Research Fiend Technical Administrator Tetris Champion, Summer Games Champion, Snakeman Champion, Ms Pacman Champion therother's Avatar
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    Default Re: The people have spoken - ENGLAND wanted a Tory Govt

    Ah, the old "West Lothian question".

    Quote Originally Posted by ShadesWolf
    During the election, 60,000 more people voted for the Tory party than Labour in England. But they got 92 less seats.
    That's an unfortunate side-effect of the way the first-past-the-post system works. But I don't think, in the longer term, that the Tories would like PR. The Tories have no natural allies: they would need 50% of the vote to get into government, and that's not likely to happen any time soon. A PR system would probably ensure a Lib/Lab coalition for some time to come, freezing out the Tories completely.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShadesWolf
    It is time that Scottish and Welsh MP's have to make a joice, do they want to sit in their own parliament and make no entry into wetminster, or do they sit in westminster only.
    I think Scottish MSPs can no longer sit in the House of Commons. That was only allowed for the transitional period. IIRC, MPs/MSPs had to choose which body to sit in 2001.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShadesWolf
    How can a country have the same people making two different decissions on the same subject for different parts of the country.
    It is a problem, but not a new one. There have been local and regional variations in legislation for some time, but perhaps not quite as large as now exists between Scotland, Wales, and England.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShadesWolf
    Why should Scottish MP vote on matter that effect England. Why are things not good for Scotland, but the same thing is good for England.
    The best solutions would seem to be either a separate English parliament for English issues or only allowing English based MPs to vote on matters that are devolved to the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly.

    But such inequities have existed long before now. For years, Scotland had a Conservative government that it came nowhere near to electing. To say that many Scots resented this is an understatement. The best recruiting sergeant the SNP and the independence movement ever had was Margaret Thatcher. Perhaps this situation will help motivate the English people to ask for a separate parliament of their own?
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    Humbled Father Member Duke of Gloucester's Avatar
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    Default Re: The people have spoken - ENGLAND wanted a Tory Govt

    Sounds sensible in theory, but Parliament doesn't have much input into defence and foreign policy. These are decided in cabinet. I can't see how another layer of government will help. It benefits England to be part of the UK. Being part of the UK means that this sort of thing is likely to happen. When the Conservatives were in power, Scotland and Wales suffered similarly, but in reverse.
    We all learn from experience. Unfortunately we don't all learn as much as we should.

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    Member Member Leftenant Moley's Avatar
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    Default Re: The people have spoken - ENGLAND wanted a Tory Govt

    We need to stay in the union. This Scottish parliament is a farce (and yet we voted for it). Yeah I think we need proportional representation too. It sucks how some peoples vote is more valuable than others. But Labour and Tories would lose seats in that case so I dont think well be getting that soon.

    On a side note dont you think democracy is nothing but a bunch of bullies telling you how to live your life? .
    There's no such thing as a lootenant.

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    Default Re: The people have spoken - ENGLAND wanted a Tory Govt

    As a Scotsman I would like to stay in the union. Our parliament at Holyrood could not control a fart in a paper bag, get better people in or dissolve it.

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    Ignore the username Member zelda12's Avatar
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    Default Re: The people have spoken - ENGLAND wanted a Tory Govt

    There are side effects to have a proportional representation based election system. For one regional issues are very rarely considered and this can at times make people even more disillusioned with Government, thus decreasing the number of votes cast even more and that means that the people who are really motivated to vote will gain more seats, unfortunately the people who have reason to vote more are extremists. And in a PR system extremist parties like the BNP, the Cornwall Independence Party and the Official Monster Raving Looney Party will get more seats. Personally I would much prefer the first past the post system and no fascists within 5 miles of Parliament.

    Also you neglect to mention that that 60,000 more votes was certainly caused by several factors, the most obvious being the protest vote that many labour voters gave to Lib Dems to show their disillusion with the Government over the war, then they got Tory MP's, an prime example was in Putney and it will not happen next time round. Another reason is that the Conservatives core vote is concentrated in the south which has one of the highest proportions of elderly people in the country and elderly people are known to vote in large numbers.

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    For England and St.George Senior Member ShadesWolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: The people have spoken - ENGLAND wanted a Tory Govt

    protest vote
    I have never understood this idea. I am a Tory and have voted in every election. And will continue to vote. In all teh GE and local I have always voted Tory and have no intension voting any other way.

    As for the elderly vote, at least one group of people can be bothered to get off there back sides and put a cross in the box. Its a pity a few more lazy younger people cant be bothered.

    As for your comments on it being a southern thing, If you have a look at an Election Results map, after removing all teh larger city type areas ie Merseyside, Manchester, Birmingham, London, north East and West and South yorkshire which are the heavily populated urban areas the map is VERY Blue with a few Yellow areas. This shows a def difference between Urban and rural life.
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    Ignore the username Member zelda12's Avatar
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    Default Re: The people have spoken - ENGLAND wanted a Tory Govt

    protest vote
    I have never understood this idea. I am a Tory and have voted in every election. And will continue to vote. In all teh GE and local I have always voted Tory and have no intension voting any other way.
    Its becuase the majority of the Labour Party were opposed to the war in Iraq, and even more opposed to Blair. But becuase of two major landslides they all belived that enough Labour voters would vote Labour still and stop the Tories winning the seat they live in. Unfortunately the people in close marginals believed this as well, hence the huge swing to the Lib Dems whilst Labour Dropped and the Conservatives stayed the same. The staying the same allowed the Tories to win in many marginals.

    As for your comments on it being a southern thing, If you have a look at an Election Results map, after removing all teh larger city type areas ie Merseyside, Manchester, Birmingham, London, north East and West and South yorkshire which are the heavily populated urban areas the map is VERY Blue with a few Yellow areas. This shows a def difference between Urban and rural life.
    Of course there a definate difference between Urban and rural life, the Urban areas like the Labour party becuase of the stable economy good job security and national minimum wage. The rural areas hate the Labour party not least becuase of deep ingrained loyalty to the conservatives, (An example being Howard flights former constituency which has been Conservative for over 150 years.) and also becuase they are the ones who fear immigration and then there the pro hunt lobby.


    Also remember that when Thatcher was winning more people voted Labour but she still won.

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    Things Change Member JAG's Avatar
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    Default Re: The people have spoken - ENGLAND wanted a Tory Govt

    Ah, the bitterness of a third big election defeat is hitting home!

    I do not have any problem with the situation as it is, for the reason others have stated.

    But Shades, if you want PR, then we could agree, but you do realise that would mean the Tories never getting into power ever again don't you?
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    For England and St.George Senior Member ShadesWolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: The people have spoken - ENGLAND wanted a Tory Govt

    But Shades, if you want PR, then we could agree, but you do realise that would mean the Tories never getting into power ever again don't you
    I do actually believe in PR. I dont think that first pasted the post works.

    I not sure how you would elect somebody and who (persons) would get into parliament.
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    Ignore the username Member zelda12's Avatar
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    Default Re: The people have spoken - ENGLAND wanted a Tory Govt

    The PR system works so that each party that gets a certain proportion of votes gets a certain number of seats in the parliment. Problems arise because the local people don't have any representatives in the Parliment. That and the fact that in the PR system extremist parties actually get seats. And once they get one seat they get more.

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    Member Member Boohugh's Avatar
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    Default Re: The people have spoken - ENGLAND wanted a Tory Govt

    Quote Originally Posted by zelda12
    Also you neglect to mention that that 60,000 more votes was certainly caused by several factors, the most obvious being the protest vote that many labour voters gave to Lib Dems to show their disillusion with the Government over the war, then they got Tory MP's, an prime example was in Putney and it will not happen next time round.
    There is a high chance the elecorate will be even more disillusioned at the next election because they will be so sick of such a long Labour government. People will finally realise Labour isn't fulfilling its promises on health and education.

    If the Conservatives get their act together quickly and elect a new younger leader that has the party's support, there is quite a high probability that they could form the next Government in 2009/10.

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    Viceroy of the Indian Empire Member Duke Malcolm's Avatar
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    Default Re: The people have spoken - ENGLAND wanted a Tory Govt

    Yes, If Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland have devolution, England should. A separate parliament should be elected by the English for devolved matters like those that the Welsh assembly has to deal with.
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    Ignore the username Member zelda12's Avatar
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    Default Re: The people have spoken - ENGLAND wanted a Tory Govt

    There is a high chance the elecorate will be even more disillusioned at the next election because they will be so sick of such a long Labour government. People will finally realise Labour isn't fulfilling its promises on health and education.

    If the Conservatives get their act together quickly and elect a new younger leader that has the party's support, there is quite a high probability that they could form the next Government in 2009/10.
    You may have neglected to mention that the Labour party has not failed in its promises in keeping the NHS and education system together and improving it. When it comes right down to it the ordinary person on the street trusts Labour more than any other party when it comes down to running the economy and investing in services. They still do not trust the Tories with those responsibilities and frankly I doubt they ever will. The reason and the only reason the Tories made such startling gains in this election was because Labour voters voted Lib Dem as a protest against the war. Now they have Tory MP's and will not make the same mistake.

    Remember one thing when the Labour Government inherited the NHS the education system public transport and almost all the other public services they were decrepit and starved of funds and any real hope. Within 8 years the NHS is rapidly rising in efficiency and expertise, schools are getting better, and public transport is finally being drawn inexorably back to Nationalisation. And of course the Economy is in the best of health and with this age of mortgages and credit cards who wants an economy that had so many fluxes it looked like a seismograph, the simple fact is people trust Labour on almost all issues a lot more than they trust the Tories.

    As such I can comfortable predict that within 10-20 years the Conservative party will be the Third Party in the country with the Lib Dems in second.

    Have a nice day.

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    Member Member ah_dut's Avatar
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    Default Re: The people have spoken - ENGLAND wanted a Tory Govt

    Quote Originally Posted by zelda12
    When it comes right down to it the ordinary person on the street trusts Labour more than any other party when it comes down to running the economy and investing in services.
    Well the ones that bothered to vote that is...

    But can Labour keep spending like this indefinitely? I think not personally, but then agin, I have few reliable sources other than what I see in my parent's line of work...the NHS, where loads of money seems to go into red tape and dentists (yup my parents are dentists) seem to have a literal tonne of forms to fill in.

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    Ignore the username Member zelda12's Avatar
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    Default Re: The people have spoken - ENGLAND wanted a Tory Govt

    The answer to if the givernment can keep money going in indefinately is yes. After 2008 the growth in spending will slow down quite a lot but it will still grow and by then that growth will only be needed for new hospitals and new up to date equipment. And the forms are there for a reason. They are there so that patients have accurate records of thier ailment and so that if refered with a different illness other doctors know what happened to them. Thats what red tape is for. The Tory answer was to have a smoother more streamlined Government. If you have seen the Yes Minister/Primeminster episode when Hacker did the same you have the result. All it means is the same amount of paperwork dumped on fewer people. If the Tories had won the Civil Servants would have been on strike by the end of the month.
    Last edited by zelda12; 05-07-2005 at 18:19.

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    Member Member Boohugh's Avatar
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    Default Re: The people have spoken - ENGLAND wanted a Tory Govt

    Quote Originally Posted by zelda12
    The answer to if the givernment can keep money going in indefinately is yes.
    Without raising taxes extortionately? I don't think so. The government is currently paying 29 billion a year just on the interest payments of national debt. Labour keeps on borrowing, sending the debt up even further, storing up trouble for future governments.

    It may be a Labour government in the future, or it may not, but the fact that Labour is so shortsighted is a worrying thing indeed. It just shows a complete lack of interest in the future. Everyone blames Thatcher for the poor performance of public services now, but the fact is she laid the economic framework that Labour is profiting from now (flexible labour market, lack of trade union power, etc) because she had a degree of foresight.

    Quote Originally Posted by zelda12
    After 2008 the growth in spending will slow down quite a lot
    Nobody can accurately predict that far into the future, because nobody knows what will be contained in future budgets. It is possible to model what will happen if nothing changes, but unfortunately the economy just doesn't work like that.
    Last edited by Boohugh; 05-07-2005 at 21:46.

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    Ignore the username Member zelda12's Avatar
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    Default Re: The people have spoken - ENGLAND wanted a Tory Govt

    Yet the country keeps on going, the truth of the matter is that we the British pay some of the Cheapest Taxes in Europe and to be frank the British public know this now and are willing to pay more.

    And on the Subject of the framework you laid is it me or does it seem to you that the Tories didn't so much leave a good framework as a field of personal battles and Tory egotism at its best. Remember that in their first year in office the Labour Party rose the minimum wage and scrapped a vast swathe of Tory policies. And remember we've had 8 years to destroy the country with our Quasi Socialist ideas and it still seems to be doing better than when the Tories had it.

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    He who controls Arrakis.. Member 71-hour Ahmed's Avatar
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    Default Re: The people have spoken - ENGLAND wanted a Tory Govt

    Tsk tsk... quasi-socialists...

    Current labour economic policy is mostly an extension of later period Major government policy, with some less careful management of debt and these many tax credit/ bonus/thingy deals. Independence for the Bank of England is Gordon Browns sole identifiable Labour introduction in the first few years.

    Labour education policy....ditto - minus the grant maintenance idea. NHS policy.....largely similar, but a lot more gimmicky/management crap focussed recently (possibly a result of existing strategy's flaws such as target setting steadily pulling the system out of shape and distorting its values and success perception, so part conservative and part labour to blame). Theres surprisingly little between the two parties in those areas. You have to look to specific areas like European integration and Iraq (and only now) to be able to tell them apart.

    Also personal debt is now ridiculously high, and the longer term picture for house price rises is tempered by the danger of the many whose pensions have lost most or all of their value selling their houses in a few years time to fund their retirement. The NHS has the highest rate in Europe of deaths due to MRSA, a disease best prevented by...wait for it... cleaning the sodding rooms. I have a friend who got messed up by that disease, so I'm really not impressed by the governments record on that area. Oh and one thing: top up fees for Universities, which specifically were not going to be introduced, are now coming in.... Labour, the party that puts the "ass" into "middle class" and ensures that people from poorer backgrounds are put off getting a good education and better prospects in life.

    So the answer is... it is you. This government sucks as much as the poorer conservative governments did in those areas.

    The suggestion (getting back on topic) that England wanted Tories is BS. Only 20% of England (total voting pop) wanted labour, to say that the difference in votes under those circumstance had any relevance is garbage. Also refer to the previous comments regarding internal vote distribution in England - theres more difference between the english in different areas than between scotland and england, or wales. I have no doubt that many of the English would have voted Blair if needed to keep him in power if it wasn't for the fact he would win without them.
    The scary thing about leaving the Org for a while and then coming back is the exponential growth of "gah!" on your return...

  22. #22

    Default Re: The people have spoken - ENGLAND wanted a Tory Govt

    well if the english went and found their own island,
    Wed be fine,
    take ya tory labour and lib dems with you Please.
    We dont want any of em thanx

    torys want to re introduce poll tax and so do the lib dems,

    Its not much better with labour,
    they want higher council tax, But not for england only for wales,

    then u have them freezing house prices here in wales at Extortionate prices,
    a house that would have costed you 85k 10 years ago is now more like 500k now.

    but this area is adopting a welsh only policy,
    Gone are the days of burning down english peoples homes,
    now its Dont sell the english a house,
    But becous of the house prices Youd need to go work in england to make enough money to buy 1.
    so no welsh people can buy them, But then again nor can the english.


    then you take all our tax money And flood it in to english hospitols and slash english wating lists,
    Yet welsh wating lists stay Just the same,
    Basically
    We dont want your rules becous thats the way you want to Have it,
    we dont want to give the english our money Becous they spend it on the english.


    all We want is our country back,
    And 1 day it will come.

    and any way torys dint loose or gain any seats.
    and plaid cymru lost 1 seat.

    Its the lib dems who gained the most.
    And that would have been becous of the war,
    Last edited by Shambles; 05-07-2005 at 23:52.

  23. #23
    Member Member bmolsson's Avatar
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    Default Re: The people have spoken - ENGLAND wanted a Tory Govt

    Losing really sux.....

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    Member Member thrashaholic's Avatar
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    Default Re: The people have spoken - ENGLAND wanted a Tory Govt

    Shambles,

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but England (South East England to be precise) IIRC are net contributors money-wise to Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales, so in fact it's English money going into those countries' schools and hospitals. Also IIRC the Welsh Assembly has control of Welsh hospitals, so high waiting lists in Wales are a purely Welsh affair and have nothing to do with the English.

    You are also mistaken about Tory, Lib Dem and Labour tax policy, in that the Tories don't want to reintroduce the poll tax, their policy is in fact aimed at lowering council tax, the Lib Dems want to replace council tax with a local income tax, and the Labour party are in favour of raising council taxes across the country, not just in Wales (in fact the South East of England has seen the greatest council tax rises in the country).

    Admittedly Wales, especially the old industrial areas, has been somewhat neglected, and not enough has been done to encourage prosperity in it, but I hardly think it's fair to blame all of the problems Wales is facing on the English. As a Welshman living in England, I find your portrayal of the English as money-grabbing sadists quite offensive, especially considering how much money in the Welsh economy is from English tourism. Wales needs to encourage service sector industries, like Northern Ireland has, to put it back on the road to wealth.

  25. #25

    Default Re: The people have spoken - ENGLAND wanted a Tory Govt

    Quote Originally Posted by thrashaholic
    Shambles,

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but England (South East England to be precise) IIRC are net contributors money-wise to Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales, so in fact it's English money going into those countries' schools and hospitals. Also IIRC the Welsh Assembly has control of Welsh hospitals, so high waiting lists in Wales are a purely Welsh affair and have nothing to do with the English.

    You are also mistaken about Tory, Lib Dem and Labour tax policy, in that the Tories don't want to reintroduce the poll tax, their policy is in fact aimed at lowering council tax, the Lib Dems want to replace council tax with a local income tax, and the Labour party are in favour of raising council taxes across the country, not just in Wales (in fact the South East of England has seen the greatest council tax rises in the country).

    Admittedly Wales, especially the old industrial areas, has been somewhat neglected, and not enough has been done to encourage prosperity in it, but I hardly think it's fair to blame all of the problems Wales is facing on the English. As a Welshman living in England, I find your portrayal of the English as money-grabbing sadists quite offensive, especially considering how much money in the Welsh economy is from English tourism. Wales needs to encourage service sector industries, like Northern Ireland has, to put it back on the road to wealth.
    Is that what blair tells you is it?

    Look out hel tell u we have wapons of mass destruction next

    But sorry if i offended you,
    I get quite agrivated when it comes to leting english people tell me what to do
    Last edited by Shambles; 05-08-2005 at 09:36.

  26. #26
    Banned Snowhobbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: The people have spoken - ENGLAND wanted a Tory Govt

    You do know that Britain has nuke right?
    Pretty sure they qualify as WMD

  27. #27

    Default Re: The people have spoken - ENGLAND wanted a Tory Govt

    Wales m8 Wales :)

    The welsh dont get much back for what they put in,

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    Member Member thrashaholic's Avatar
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    Default Re: The people have spoken - ENGLAND wanted a Tory Govt

    Quote Originally Posted by Shambles
    Wales m8 Wales :)

    The welsh dont get much back for what they put in,

    Is that what Plaid Cymru tells you? because I'm afraid it's simply not true. I don't have any statistics to hand, but it's the South East of England, as the main economic powerhouse, that generates most of the UK's wealth.

    I don't know where you got the idea that the English live in the lap of luxury, taxing the Welsh to death to pay for English public services, because wherever it's from it's a lie. It is English money that pay for most things in Great Britain. Wales would be in a lot worse state if it was independant and didn't have English tax money to support it.

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    Resident Northern Irishman Member ShadesPanther's Avatar
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    Default Re: The people have spoken - ENGLAND wanted a Tory Govt

    well if you dont put in much to start with....

    "A man may fight for many things: his country, his principles, his friends, the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock and a stack of French porn."
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  30. #30
    Viceroy of the Indian Empire Member Duke Malcolm's Avatar
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    Oct 2003
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    Default Re: The people have spoken - ENGLAND wanted a Tory Govt

    Quote Originally Posted by thrashaholic
    I don't know where you got the idea that the English live in the lap of luxury, taxing the Welsh to death to pay for English public services, because wherever it's from it's a lie. It is English money that pay for most things in Great Britain. Wales would be in a lot worse state if it was independant and didn't have English tax money to support it.
    The oil, tobacco and alcohol duties pays for most things in Great Britain, The taxes in the South-East pay for things in the South-East.
    The only reason so much money is produced in the South-East, is because a lot of the people live there. The money is then spent on the people in the South-East. together with the oil and alcohol money that Scotland produces, it could get more money than it does now, but not quite as much as the SNP say. I can't say much for Wales, because I don't live there.
    It was not theirs to reason why,
    It was not theirs to make reply,
    It was theirs but to do or die.
    -The Charge of the Light Brigade - Alfred, Lord Tennyson

    "Wherever this stone shall lie, the King of the Scots shall rule"
    -Prophecy of the Stone of Destiny

    "For God, For King and country, For loved ones home and Empire, For the sacred cause of justice, and The freedom of the world, They buried him among the kings because he, Had done good toward God and toward his house."
    -Inscription on the Tomb of the Unknown Warrior

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