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Thread: Venezuela's Chavez accuses oil companies of massive tax evasion

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    A Veteran Wargamer Member kiwitt's Avatar
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    Default Venezuela's Chavez accuses oil companies of massive tax evasion

    Quote Originally Posted by tradingcharts

    CARACAS, Venezuela, May 06, 2005 (AP WorldStream via COMTEX) -- Many oil companies operating in Venezuela have failed to pay large amounts of taxes, and the government may charge some companies retroactively, President Hugo Chavez said.

    He said there has been "massive evasion" by both foreign and Venezuelan companies, and that some have declared losses to avoid paying taxes.

    "The billing in this case could be retroactive," Chavez said Friday in a televised speech, referring to a recent tax increase.

    Last month, the government adjusted the tax rate on 32 oil operating agreements to 50 percent, up from 34 percent, saying the oil firms were paying a cheap industrial rate.

    Chavez didn't mention any specific companies, but said the problem of tax evasion applied to many of the oil firms in Venezuela.

    He said the 50 percent rate was "fair," and that tax authorities may have to begin calculating the amount oil firms avoided paying in the past.

    "They were paying (a rate) as if it were an electrical product," Chavez said.

    He also said there has been a "campaign" of false information about the state oil company Petroleos de Venezuela S.A. since the announcement of the tax increase.

    Chavez held up several folders, saying they were the result of government intelligence overseas to recover past agreements with oil companies in which Venezuela's interests suffered.

    He also said Venezuela's oil production is at 3.3 million barrels a day and that officials aim to reach 3.4 million barrels a day this year.

    Independent analysts say Venezuela, the world's fifth largest oil exporting country, actually produces about 2.6 million barrels a day.
    see here

    It be interesting to see what reaction this "Tax Issue" will cause in Washington. It is very like to raise the price of oil in the short term as least.
    Last edited by kiwitt; 05-09-2005 at 04:24.
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    Dragonslayer Emeritus Senior Member Sigurd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Venezuela's Chavez accuses oil companies of massive tax evasion

    Someone wasn’t smart enough when the initial oil deals were struck.

    On my list Venezuela is 6th on the export ranking with 2.23 mill barrels a day. They produce 2.58 mill barrels a day.
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    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Venezuela's Chavez accuses oil companies of massive tax evasion

    Chavez is a kook. He had agreements saying the tax rate was 34%, and now that he doesn't have enough money in his cookie jar, he's going to go back and retroactively force everyone to pay 50%? I pity the poor Venezuelan people, with leadership like that, they're going to be going under in no time. A pity, really, one of the richest countries in the world, in terms of resources per capita, is going bankrupt because Chavez is so crooked.
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    This comment is witty! Senior Member LittleGrizzly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Venezuela's Chavez accuses oil companies of massive tax evasion

    He had agreements saying the tax rate was 34%, and now that he doesn't have enough money in his cookie jar, he's going to go back and retroactively force everyone to pay 50%?

    I didn't get that from the article, it looked in the article that they had tax outstanding at the old rate and the rates are going up, you don't accuse companies of tax evasion if they were paying the rate set.

    This seems to be getting into a little trend first putin now chavez always picking on the little guy eh ?
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    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Venezuela's Chavez accuses oil companies of massive tax evasion

    Chavez said explicitly that he was billing oil companies retroactively on the 50% rate. In 2 years, when his government is still broke and his people are still starving, he's going to 'retroactively raise' the rates again, to 62.5%. This is all a step on his path towards nationalizing all of the oil resources.

    And who was picking on Putin? I haven't mentioned him in a long, long time. And I'd hardly call him 'a little guy', no matter how much sympathy that evokes for your position.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
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    This comment is witty! Senior Member LittleGrizzly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Venezuela's Chavez accuses oil companies of massive tax evasion

    ahh didn't now it was retroactively being done...

    This is all a step on his path towards nationalizing all of the oil resources.

    a good move i'd say.

    And who was picking on Putin? I haven't mentioned him in a long, long time. And I'd hardly call him 'a little guy', no matter how much sympathy that evokes for your position.

    sorry i wasn't clear, i meant putin did something similar to this, Yukos or something the company putin did it to was called ?

    ohh and by little guy i didn't mean putin or chavez i meant the ceo's of the oil companies and i was being sarcastic.
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    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Venezuela's Chavez accuses oil companies of massive tax evasion

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly
    This is all a step on his path towards nationalizing all of the oil resources.
    Aaah yes, the command economy, as practiced by the Soviets, the Cubans and the Maoists has been such a success, time and time again. Yet, in 10 years, when Venezuela is bankrupt, Chavez has absconded with all of their cash, and the people are starving, it'll be you Leftists claiming it's all capitalism's fault and we owe it to them to rebuild their country and offer them IMF loans (that they shouldn't have to pay back). Looking at the whole cycle like that, maybe I'm wrong... maybe income redistribution does work... Socialists piss all their money away and Capitalists come along and give it back to them.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
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    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
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    This comment is witty! Senior Member LittleGrizzly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Venezuela's Chavez accuses oil companies of massive tax evasion

    I wasn't suggesting nationalisation of all industries just this one, (important services and resources like oil health ect.)
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    Dragonslayer Emeritus Senior Member Sigurd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Venezuela's Chavez accuses oil companies of massive tax evasion

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    Aaah yes, the command economy, as practiced by the Soviets, the Cubans and the Maoists has been such a success, time and time again. Yet, in 10 years, when Venezuela is bankrupt, Chavez has absconded with all of their cash, and the people are starving, it'll be you Leftists claiming it's all capitalism's fault and we owe it to them to rebuild their country and offer them IMF loans (that they shouldn't have to pay back). Looking at the whole cycle like that, maybe I'm wrong... maybe income redistribution does work... Socialists piss all their money away and Capitalists come along and give it back to them.
    ehh... I think you will find socialistic oil-nations on both ends of the scale, some of them with an even healthier economy than the US (I am not talking size here).
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    Things Change Member JAG's Avatar
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    Default Re: Venezuela's Chavez accuses oil companies of massive tax evasion

    Griz, don't let Don talk you round to believing half truths and down right lies.

    Chavez stands up for his people - the working class people and he is making their lives better. He is pro workers not pro big business and so the US media, US govt and US people demonise him. He is a great man, long may he reign and he will with the huge support of his people he has.

    Carry on Chavez just to keep seeing the Americans reactions.
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    INEZ: One always dies too soon - or too late. And yet one's whole life is complete at that moment, with a line drawn neatly under it, ready for the summing up. You are - your life, and nothing else.

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    Scandinavian and loving it Member Lazul's Avatar
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    Default Re: Venezuela's Chavez accuses oil companies of massive tax evasion

    Chavez is just doing the right thing. So im with JAG on this one.
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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Venezuela's Chavez accuses oil companies of massive tax evasion

    Are you guys aware of what is happening in Venezuela?!?!?!?

    That protest against the government will get you jail time?

    That speaking against the government will get you jail time?

    That Chavez is a DICTATOR?!?!

    You guys really do live in a dream world.

    Griz, don't let Don talk you round to believing half truths and down right lies.

    Chavez stands up for his people - the working class people and he is making their lives better. He is pro workers not pro big business and so the US media, US govt and US people demonise him. He is a great man, long may he reign and he will with the huge support of his people he has.

    Carry on Chavez just to keep seeing the Americans reactions.
    Half truths? Is that why US capitalism makes it the strongest economy in the world, easily beating all the socialist European countries? Is that why the US triumphed over communist Russia?

    I notice supporters of socialism never cite history as evidence that socialism works.

    And you say he's made their life better? Please. If some people rally in support of him, its because they've been lied to.

    a good move i'd say.
    Nationalism is always a bad move. It removes the incentive for the company to improve by removing all competition and forcing the people to use that company, no matter how terrible the service is.

    It is also stupid to give the government to much power. You would not allow a group of men to control all the resources in a country, so why would you allow the government, which had even more power then, to cut off dissent by denying resources.

    Essential resources especially should be kept out of the hands of government.

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    This comment is witty! Senior Member LittleGrizzly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Venezuela's Chavez accuses oil companies of massive tax evasion

    Half truths? Is that why US capitalism makes it the strongest economy in the world

    of course being the only world power not devastated after WW2 has nothing to do with it....or having a huge a country full of natural resources... nope its all because we have tax paid healthcare... must be

    If some people rally in support of him, its because they've been lied to.

    yeah he doesn't do anything for the poor masses which voted him in they just been lied to, (sarcasm) like bush as well just falling for lies

    Essential resources especially should be kept out of the hands of government.

    i disagree, essential resources should be kept out of the hands of buisnessmen and put into the hands of the elected representatives, in a dictatorship on the other hand i might prefer a buisnessmen in charge.
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Venezuela's Chavez accuses oil companies of massive tax evasion

    Nationalism is always a bad move. It removes the incentive for the company to improve by removing all competition and forcing the people to use that company, no matter how terrible the service is.

    That is not true if nationalism is a goal in itselve.

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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Venezuela's Chavez accuses oil companies of massive tax evasion

    of course being the only world power not devastated after WW2 has nothing to do with it....or having a huge a country full of natural resources... nope its all because we have tax paid healthcare... must be
    Ever heard of the Marshall plan? Besides, the war ended 60 years ago, and that's plenty of time to catch up. You can't use the war excuse.

    But let's look at yet another example: Korea. Both North and South were blasted by war after the Korean war, and equal in terms of economy.

    The South adapted democracy while the North stayed communist. Now South Korea has a very good economy, and the North can't feed its people. To really see the difference, look at a night satellite image of Korea. You can see the divide by where the lights cut off.

    yeah he doesn't do anything for the poor masses which voted him in they just been lied to, (sarcasm) like bush as well just falling for lies
    Well, what proof do you have of him doing anything for the masses? If the masses support him so much, why did he just buy 300,000 assualt rifles from Russia?

    i disagree, essential resources should be kept out of the hands of buisnessmen and put into the hands of the elected representatives, in a dictatorship on the other hand i might prefer a buisnessmen in charge.
    Why do you disagree? Can you respond to the points I've made about the failure of nationalization?

    And why should representatives take charge of businesses? They don't know anything about the businesses and could not run them as well as businessmen. Private companies seek to put out the best product for the lowest price. Government agencies are filled with red-tape empowered bureacrats who want to assert their power by tying up things, and who have NO INCENTIVE to improve. Now, which one is better for the consumer?

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    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Venezuela's Chavez accuses oil companies of massive tax evasion

    Quote Originally Posted by JAG
    Griz, don't let Don talk you round to believing half truths and down right lies.

    Chavez stands up for his people - the working class people and he is making their lives better. He is pro workers not pro big business and so the US media, US govt and US people demonise him. He is a great man, long may he reign and he will with the huge support of his people he has.

    Carry on Chavez just to keep seeing the Americans reactions.
    EDIT: Language changed per moderator's requrest. Intent remains the same.

    Well Jag, just when I think I'm getting to know you, you find a way to surprise me. I thought more of you than resorting to baseless accusations, but thanks for enlightening me.

    While I have at times been incorrect, and have publicly acknowledged this upon being proven wrong, I do not lie. For you to claim that I do is vile and you have ceased to have any respect in my eyes. I don't think somebody like you can possibly understand how angry such an accusation would make me, but in my book, it's right up there with calling me a child molester.

    Next time, don't be a hypocrite and post me well wishes on my birthday if you truly think so little of me.
    Last edited by Don Corleone; 05-09-2005 at 18:48.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
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    Scandinavian and loving it Member Lazul's Avatar
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    Default Re: Venezuela's Chavez accuses oil companies of massive tax evasion

    Rabbit:
    Well, what proof do you have of him doing anything for the masses? If the masses support him so much, why did he just buy 300,000 assualt rifles from Russia?

    Well sweden buys war-materials from eastern europe to... so the I must be living in a dictatorship?

    Ever heard of the Marshall plan? Besides, the war ended 60 years ago, and that's plenty of time to catch up. You can't use the war excuse.'

    as far as I know Europe doesnt have much economical problems (western europe that is). Western Europe is just like the US divided into small nations. South America has economical problems, but thats not so strange since the western world keeps screwing them over more or less.

    But let's look at yet another example: Korea

    comparing Venezuela to North Korea? thats a bit to much.
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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Venezuela's Chavez accuses oil companies of massive tax evasion

    Being rich is bad, says Venezuela's Chavez

    April 15 2005 at 11:47AM

    Caracas, Venezuela - Buy and sell, wheel and deal, but don't get rich.

    That's the advice to businessmen from Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez, a self-proclaimed revolutionary who wants to develop a new form of socialism to fight poverty in the world's fifth biggest oil exporter.

    "Being rich is bad, it's bad. People who are rich, who have a lot of money should donate all of that," Chavez told a conference for small business owners.

    Chavez, an ally and admirer of Cuba's Fidel Castro, often presents his left-leaning policies as an alternative to "savage capitalism". Since his 1998 election, he has increased public spending on a raft of social programmes for the poor.

    But critics accuse Chavez, the son of rural school teachers who rose to political fame by leading a botched military coup, of trying to copy Cuba's communist system in Venezuela.

    They say he has increased state intervention in the economy and squeezed private business with currency and price curbs.

    "I don't want money. Really, when I leave here, there'll be a shack or a hammock waiting for me somewhere," said Chavez in a sharp business suit. "I don't want anything for myself."
    Yes this giy has a real good head on his shoulders. Like most leftisit his intentions maybe good but I bet in the end he will cause disaster for his country just like Castro did to Cuba.
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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Venezuela's Chavez accuses oil companies of massive tax evasion

    Well sweden buys war-materials from eastern europe to... so the I must be living in a dictatorship?
    Did I say that Venezuela was a dictatorship just because they bought 300k new rifles? NO! It is just one part of what he has done. For crying out loud, stop setting up stupid ittle straw men.

    as far as I know Europe doesnt have much economical problems (western europe that is). Western Europe is just like the US divided into small nations. South America has economical problems, but thats not so strange since the western world keeps screwing them over more or less.
    What about the aging population and the need to give them handouts for the rest of their lives? How will the economies support it? Besides, the point was that their economies are tiny compared to the US.

    comparing Venezuela to North Korea? thats a bit to much.
    Um, no....N. Korea is what happens with full-tilt communism. And Chavez is trying to implement communist policies.

    Crazed Rabbit
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    The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder

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    Things Change Member JAG's Avatar
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    Default Re: Venezuela's Chavez accuses oil companies of massive tax evasion

    Barrio Adentro
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

    Barrio Adentro ("Inside the neighborhood", or "Into the neighborhood") is a government-sponsored Venezuelan program to provide free health care and dental care to poor and traditionally underserved communities. The project includes the construction of medical clinics and accomodations for doctors in both urban and rural districts that previously had little or no access to health care, importation and payment of thousands of Cuban doctors, and the training and retraining of thousands of Venezuelan doctors, both in Venezuela and in Cuba. The Venezuelan government claims that 18 million people, or nearly 70% of the population, has been treated through Barrio Adentro.

    The program started in March, 2003 in the Libertador neighborhood of the Venezuelan capital Caracas, and has expanded rapidly to the rest of the country. At least 15,000 Cuban doctors have been put to work in Venezuela, where they are paid about $250 per month, less than private doctors earn in Venezuela (and less than Venezuelan doctors were offered to participate in Barrio Adentro), but considerably more than they were paid in Cuba. Venezuela, in exchange, is providing Cuba with oil at below market rates. This is one of many such partnerships Venezuela and Cuba have made, to provide Cuba with oil and Venezuela with professionals and expertise.

    Venezuelan political opponents of President Hugo Chávez and his Movement for the Fifth Republic party have charged that the Cuban Barrio Adentro doctors are agents of the ruling Communist Party of Cuba invited by Chávez to propagandize the Venezuelan population. The Venezuelan Ministry of Health claims that it was unable to find a large enough supply of adequately-trained Venezeulan doctors willing to provide free care in poor areas. The Venezuelan Medical Federation (FVM) has lobbied against the plan, filing a lawsuit in an attempt to prevent the Cuban doctors from praticing medicine, arguing that they are unlicensed.

    The program has drawn international praise from the Latin American branch of the World Health Organization, and representatives from Saudi Arabia have visited Venezuela to study the program in order to consider implementing similar programs in their own country.
    http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1370

    An Oil-for-Aid Deal that Really Works

    By: Marina Jiménez - Znet

    Berta Rabelo remembers the day her life changed forever. It was March 14, 2004, when a neighbour dropped by her tin-roofed shack to tell her that a doctor had opened a clinic a few doors from her home in Barrio La Esperanza, a shantytown in the southern hills high above the glass skyscrapers of downtown Caracas. In her 72 years in the barrio, Ms. Rabelo had never seen a doctor venture into this zone of open sewers, dirt pathways and armed drug lords, even in an emergency. "I could not believe it," she says.



    And the man wasn't even Venezuelan. Dr. Eliecer Hernandez, 32, had come to one of the country's poorest neighbourhoods from Cuba. He made daily house calls - for example, visiting Ms. Rabelo every two weeks to take her blood pressure and check on her hypertension. The treatment and medication were absolutely free.



    His presence is part of a controversial "oil-for-doctors" program that has seen 15,000 Cuban medics set up clinics in Venezuela's slums in the past 18 months, and at least 53,000 barrels of Venezuelan oil a day delivered to their cash-strapped, embargo-beset homeland. Properly called Barrio Adentro (Inside the Barrio), the program is the brainchild of Latin America's two maverick presidents, Cuba's Fidel Castro and Venezuela's Hugo Chavez. It was launched in March, 2003 - to many complaints.



    "They are not doctors, they specialize in politics," Duglas de Leon, president of the Venezuelan Medical Federation, declared to a local newspaper. He obtained a court order prohibiting Cuban doctors from working in Venezuela, but the government appealed and the court ruled the program could continue while the case was argued.



    Today, the Cubans staff 300 clinics in the most indigent and inaccessible parts of a country that is the world's fifth-largest oil exporter but starkly split between rich and poor. The Pan-American Health Organization has come out in favour of the program, and plans to make it a model for other countries.



    The largest deployment of Cuban professionals since Angola in the 1970s, it is a feather in the caps of Cuba's 78-year-old Communist leader and Venezuela's 50-year-old populist president.



    As well, it has helped to revive the political career of Mr. Chavez and his mix of militarism and socialist ideals. In April, 2002, after only three years in power, he was briefly ousted in a coup led by disaffected military and business leaders. He was reinstated in two days, but a year later the government's approval rating stood at just 35 per cent.



    Since then, Mr. Chavez's support has increased significantly among the poor, who make up 70 per cent of his 23 million people. In August, he won 59-per-cent approval in a referendum on his presidency. By that time, according to Tomas Ra mos, the director of health in Caracas, 17 million Venezuelans had been treated by the Cuban doctors. Cuba, in turn, benefited from the heavily subsidized Venezuelan oil, which accounts for about one-third of its energy consumption, accord ing to a recent paper by the University of Miami's Institute for Cuban Studies. Cuba receives the daily 53,000 barrels of petroleum products with up to 25-per-cent financing, payable over 15 years at 2-per-cent interest after a two-year grace period. In reality, there is little ex pectation that the billion-dollar oil debt will ever be repaid.



    In the bowels of Barrio La Esperanza, patients such as Berta Rabe lo hear little of the political debate. Before this, no government services had ever reached this slum, which is without plumbing, garbage collection or electricity. Dr. Hernandez volunteered for the mission, leaving his home in Holguin on Cuba's west coast. He says most of the health problems here are wholly preventable ones that vaccines, a better diet and proper sanitation could cure. Con cerned that Ms. Rabelo's diet was high in fat, for instance, he signed her up for a government soup-kitchen program. Volunteers now deliver daily meals of rice, beans, broccoli, carrots and meat.



    Other patients have gastrointes tinal and respiratory illnesses, skin lesions, head lice and high blood pressure caused by a diet rich in fat.



    "I never imagined that people's misery could be so acute. It's different in Cuba. I've seen illnesses here that no longer exist in Cuba, that is how abandoned the people are here," he says. For example, he re cently treated a young child for congenital syphilis, transmitted by mother to baby.



    Dr. Hernandez's assignment may last as long as five years, and he hopes that he will be permitted soon to bring his wife and baby to join him in the clinic. The Chavez government pays him $200 (U.S.) a month, plus room and board - in Cuba, he earns only $40 a month. On a typical day, from 8 a.m. to 3 p.m., Dr. Hernandez runs the clinic with another physician and a Cuban dentist. They spend late afternoon and early evening clamouring up and down the steep stairs built into the winding hills, visiting pregnant women and patients too frail to come to the clinic. "The idea is to have doctors to look at our patients as people and not as a product, or a way to make money," he says.



    That may be the case on the ground, but for the country's leaders, the arrangement is very much about money as well as power. In 2003, Mr. Chavez reorganized the country's state-owned petroleum company, replacing 19,000 striking workers with government loyalists and cementing his control over the oil-for-doctors program, which many former employees opposed. Last year, Mr. Chavez even appointed his brother and political mentor, Adan Chavez, to head Venezuela's Cuban embassy, to deepen the "brotherly" relationship between the two countries. "The economic stability of the Castro regime depends to a great extent on the fate of Chavez's rule in Venezuela," conclude the authors of the University of Miami paper.



    "The loss of its Venezuelan bonanza would be economically, if not politically, unbearable. And that is something Castro is not going to let happen."



    Marina Jiménez is a senior feature writer with The Globe and Mail
    http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1330

    Weighing the Revolution: The Limits of Social Spending, the Need for Structural Change in Venezuela

    By: Jonah Gindin and Claudia Jardim - Venezuelanalysis.com

    In a recent article published on www.counterpunch.org, retired Professor of Sociology at Binghamton University, New York, James Petras attacked what he described as the common habit of both right and left in “substituting myths about the Chávez government rather than confronting realities.” Petras is currently in Venezuela to participate in an intellectual conference “In Defense of Humanity” aimed at debating and discussing strategies for opposing neoliberalism and American imperialism.

    Last August Hugo Chávez roundly defeated a referendum on his mandate as President of Venezuela. A historic level participation gave Chávez 60% to the opposition’s 40%--a powerful victory that gave Chávez’ government significant momentum going into regional elections on October 31st. While voter-participation was certainly less than historic in the regional elections, candidates allied to Chávez came away with a near-sweep, resulting in what is now being to referred to as the ‘red map’ of Venezuela.[1]

    In the context of these two powerful votes of confidence, Chávez has called for a new stage in the Bolívarian revolution (his process of social and political changes concentrated on the 70% of the country living under the poverty line). This new stage, “the revolution within the revolution,” has so far been characterized by introspection and self-criticism on the part of the government, and stunned silence, with one tragic exception, on the part of the opposition. That silence has been punctuated only once, by the most radical and reactionary wing of the anti-Chavists, with the assassination of state prosecutor Danilo Anderson.

    The ‘In Defense of Humanity’ conference aims on the one hand to foster discussion, debate, and the promotion of concrete strategies to oppose the ‘new world order’ across the global ‘south’. But an obviously hoped for byproduct is a similar paring of debate and concrete proposals specifically related to Venezuela. In the context of ‘deepening the Bolívarian revolution’, and of the intellectual conference, Petras elaborates on what he sees as the limits of the Venezuelan revolution.
    James Petras was invited to Venezuela to participate in the "In Defense of Humanity" conference, held December 1-5 in Caracas
    Credit: Jonah Gindin
    In ‘Myths and Realities’ you draw a parallel between former-President of the United States Franklin D. Roosevelt and President Hugo Chávez. Specifically you refer to Chávez’ ‘Bolívarian revolution’ as a set of ‘New Deal’ social-democratic reforms. Is there no revolutionary content to Chávez’ movement?

    There is a difference, Chávez is very active in terms of stimulating organization, but Roosevelt legalized trade unions, he recognized the right to collective negotiation. So there are differences, Chávez is oriented towards the urban poor more so than towards already organized, unionized sectors. I also think that Chávez looks for policies that stimulate nationalist, anti-imperialist sentiment, while Roosevelt was on a specifically anti-Fascist wavelength. So there is a parallel, I’m not saying they coincide in every respect, but they share a form of denouncing the oligarchy without transforming property relations…

    I say Roosevelt in the sense of promoting social changes without changing the structures of capitalism. I don’t think Chávez has any intention of changing the relations between capitalism and the state—including foreign capital. On the contrary, I think he’s forging more links will different capitalists in different countries. And he continues to pay the foreign debt, which is not a model for any government, whether they’re reformist or revolutionary…I respect Chávez’ social programs that are raising the living standards of Venezuela’s poor. But I think we must recognize the limits that define this politics…

    During the opposition oil strike in 2002-03 many companies acted as political agents, rather than economic ones. workers took over some factories that had closed in support of the strike. And the workers began occupying factories, or at least protesting—optimal conditions for intervention [by the government], and to transform them into self-managed, public enterprises, etc… But [Chávez] didn’t do it. Because it’s not in his concept of how an economy should be. He believes in a mixed economy. The big difference with Chávez is with social spending. He thinks [corporations, the wealthy] should pay taxes, and he should provide social services. But in my opinion the question is: how can this be?

    Given that the majority of the population works in the informal sector[2], after 6 years in government they have not made the necessary large-scale public investments to create new employment. They depend on the private sector to make those investments and generate employment. Venezuela is mired in unemployment and sub-employment, when they should invest the immense resources to generate employment through public works, instead of waiting for the private sector to do it for credits and incentives. Because [the private sector] is not doing it, they are not disposed to make the large-scale long-term investments necessary. Along with great advances [in Venezuela] in health, housing, education the problem of employment remains very grave. Ultimately, this cannot be solved by social spending, it requires large-scale public investment…..If workers continue working in precarious conditions, with low salaries, the families of these workers live poorly. They live with better services, but they live poorly nonetheless. Social services are essential, but I think we must address the root of the problem, we must provide well-paying, stable jobs, so that social services improve people’s lives, rather than being substitutes for the structural changes necessary for them to have a decent life….
    I think the left, like the right, exaggerates [Chávez’] degree of radicalism for two reasons. First, in the face of what Latin America represents today, with Lula, Mesa, Guttierez [Presidents of Brazil, Bolivia, and Ecuador, respectively] obviously [Chávez] is a person who is passing legislation beneficial to the popular sectors. He has launched a land-reform, while in Brazil they’re stimulating agro-business. And also in external politics is where I think we could say that Chávez has consistently taken relatively radical positions. Radical in the sense that they reject the aggressive policies of the US, criticizes and opposes the FTAA [Free Trade Area of the Americas], he is against the invasion of Haiti, and is looking to form some kind of alliance with other recalcitrant governments of Latin America.

    [1] The color red is associated with Chávez and his ‘Bolivarian revolution’, so-named after the Latin American independence leader Simón Bolívar.

    [2] Exactly 50% as of October, according to Ministry of Labor statistics.
    http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1233

    http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1170

    http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1232

    It goes on and on... Read them, you might learn something.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Ch%E1vez

    Social programs

    Venezuela under Chávez has started numerous social programs: Barrio Adentro, an initiative to provide free health care to poor and underserved areas, Mission Robinson and Mission Sucre to increase literacy and basic education. The literacy programs are centered on learning to read and understand the Venezuelan Constitution and their inherent rights as Venezuelan citizens. These programs have been criticized as inefficient and incomplete by opposition figures but are widely heralded and appreciated by Chávez backers.
    Chávez speaks at an camp. (Photo: Marcello Jr/ABr)
    Enlarge
    Chávez speaks at an MST camp. (Photo: Marcello Jr/ABr)

    Many of these programs involve importing expertise from abroad; Venezuela is providing Cuba with 53,000 barrels (8,000 m³) of below-market-rate oil a day in exchange for the service of hundreds of physicians, teachers, and other professionals. (BBC) (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4035787.stm)
    [edit]

    Land Reform

    The Ley de Tierras ("Land Law"), passed by decree in November 2001, created Plan Zamora to enact land reforms in Venezuelan agriculture: taxing unused landholdings, expropriating unused private lands (with compensation), and giving inheritable, unsellable land grants to small farmers and farm collectives. Venezuela has seen a vast disinvestment in its rural areas since oil wealth was discovered; the country has an urbanization rate of more than 85% and it is a net food importer. The rationale given for this program was that it would provide incentives for the repopulation of the countryside and provide "food security" for the country by lessening dependence on foreign imports. There are three types of land that may be granted under the program: government land, land which is claimed by private owners, but which the government disputes their claim, and disused private land. To date, only the first two types of land have been distributed.
    [edit]

    Media

    All of the five mainstream TV networks and most major mainstream newspapers oppose Chávez, but a small minority of the media is said to support him. Chávez claims the opposition media is controlled by the interests which oppose him, whereas the media accuse him of having intimidated journalists with his pronouncements and of allegedly sending gangs to threaten journalists with physical violence.

    In 2005, the Chávez government announced the creation of Telesur, a proposed Latin America-wide television network to compete with CNN en español and Univisión.
    [edit]

    Labor

    Chávez has had a combative relationship with the nation's largest trade union confederation, the Confederación de Trabajadores de Venezuela (CTV), historically aligned with the Acción Democrática party. During December 2000 local elections, Chávez placed a referendum on the ballot to force internal elections within unions. The referendum, condemned by the International Labour Organisation (ILO) and International Confederation of Free Trade Unions (ICFTU) as interference in internal union matters, passed by a large margin on very thin turnout. In the ensuing elections, Carlos Ortega declared victory and remained in office, whereas Chavista candidates declared fraud.

    The Union Nacional de los Trabajadores (UNT, National Workers' Union) is a pro-Chávez union federation which has been growing during Chávez's presidency, with some pro-Chávez unions disaffiliating with CTV because of their strident anti-Chávez activism and affiliating with the UNT. In 2003, Chávez sent UNT representatives to an ILO meeting, rather than CTV.

    On January 19, 2005, Chávez nationalized Venepal, a paper- and cardboard-manufacturing company at the request of its workers. The company had gone bankrupt and participation in the general lockout in 2003 was its final undoing. Workers occupied the factory and restarted production, but following a failed deal with management and amidst management threats to sell off equipment, Chávez ordered the nationalization, extended a line of credit, and ordered that the Venezuelan educational missions (see above) purchase paper products from the company.
    Wow what a dictator!!!! My arse.
    GARCIN: I "dreamt," you say. It was no dream. When I chose the hardest path, I made my choice deliberately. A man is what he wills himself to be.
    INEZ: Prove it. Prove it was no dream. It's what one does, and nothing else, that shows the stuff one's made of.
    GARCIN: I died too soon. I wasn't allowed time to - to do my deeds.
    INEZ: One always dies too soon - or too late. And yet one's whole life is complete at that moment, with a line drawn neatly under it, ready for the summing up. You are - your life, and nothing else.

    Jean Paul Sartre - No Exit 1944

  21. #21
    Things Change Member JAG's Avatar
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    Default Re: Venezuela's Chavez accuses oil companies of massive tax evasion

    As for you Don, I will call you a lier when you blatantly lie about a man who is proposing real change for the poor in his country, real living standards increasing for those deprived for decades of hegemonic upper class corrupt democratic rule. You hate him because he doesn't let the US big business walk all over his country. You will not - and never - find me apologising for my remarks to you in this thread, they are fully deserved. If you do not like it - or loose any respect for me - tough, I don't give a damn.
    GARCIN: I "dreamt," you say. It was no dream. When I chose the hardest path, I made my choice deliberately. A man is what he wills himself to be.
    INEZ: Prove it. Prove it was no dream. It's what one does, and nothing else, that shows the stuff one's made of.
    GARCIN: I died too soon. I wasn't allowed time to - to do my deeds.
    INEZ: One always dies too soon - or too late. And yet one's whole life is complete at that moment, with a line drawn neatly under it, ready for the summing up. You are - your life, and nothing else.

    Jean Paul Sartre - No Exit 1944

  22. #22
    Feeding the Peanut Gallery Senior Member Redleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Venezuela's Chavez accuses oil companies of massive tax evasion

    Don't get on the high horse of moral rightousness there Jag - its not all roses for Chavez in Venezuela - he has made several mistakes that you just want to gloss over. Corruption is still very bad under Chavez and his government.

    http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1270
    O well, seems like 'some' people decide to ruin a perfectly valid threat. Nice going guys... doc bean

  23. #23
    Things Change Member JAG's Avatar
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    Default Re: Venezuela's Chavez accuses oil companies of massive tax evasion

    Maybe so, but if you look at the corruption pre Chavez it was worse. I am not denying everything is perfect but it is a damn sight better than it was and ordinary people are benefitting, those so oppressed for decades pre Chavez. We should all applaud him not peddle popular lies about him.
    GARCIN: I "dreamt," you say. It was no dream. When I chose the hardest path, I made my choice deliberately. A man is what he wills himself to be.
    INEZ: Prove it. Prove it was no dream. It's what one does, and nothing else, that shows the stuff one's made of.
    GARCIN: I died too soon. I wasn't allowed time to - to do my deeds.
    INEZ: One always dies too soon - or too late. And yet one's whole life is complete at that moment, with a line drawn neatly under it, ready for the summing up. You are - your life, and nothing else.

    Jean Paul Sartre - No Exit 1944

  24. #24

    Default Re: Venezuela's Chavez accuses oil companies of massive tax evasion

    Socialists like Chavez are dangerous and should be put down, especially in this hemisphere. Where is he CIA?

  25. #25
    Feeding the Peanut Gallery Senior Member Redleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Venezuela's Chavez accuses oil companies of massive tax evasion

    Quote Originally Posted by JAG
    Maybe so, but if you look at the corruption pre Chavez it was worse. I am not denying everything is perfect but it is a damn sight better than it was and ordinary people are benefitting, those so oppressed for decades pre Chavez. We should all applaud him not peddle popular lies about him.
    I personally don't have a problem with what Chavez is trying to do for his country - after years of right wing facists running the country of Venezuela - socialists principles might make a difference for the poor masses. However don't think Chavez is a darling or a saint - remember he first tried to come to power the same as all other right wing facists that ruled Venezula before - through a military coup.
    O well, seems like 'some' people decide to ruin a perfectly valid threat. Nice going guys... doc bean

  26. #26
    Feeding the Peanut Gallery Senior Member Redleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Venezuela's Chavez accuses oil companies of massive tax evasion

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJager
    Socialists like Chavez are dangerous and should be put down, especially in this hemisphere. Where is he CIA?
    No they are no more dangerous then some of the right wing dicators that we do support in South and Central America. After some more thought on the matter - I am beginning to tend toward a more isolationist view is necessary for the United States. The United States needs to only focus on the issues that directly effect our government and our way of life. There are other oil exporting countries that can supply our oil - maybe at a higher price - but so what, the price of oil does not equate to our distrubing what that nation's people decide that they want for a form of government.

    (Waiting for the why did you not hold this view for Iraq - different scenerio and that I have the opinion that we have been in a state of war with Iraq since 1992 when Iraq first violated the cease fire agreement.)

    Politicial assignation by the government is wrong - illegal (since after the Vietnam War) and if ever proven would equate to a high crime that would call for the dismantling of the adminstration that ordered such an execution.

    Edit: And I would start a grass roots campaign to impeach any president that formulated such a policy and it was discovered. (hell it might have been done since 1973 - but I don't know of any actually evidence that supports a theory of a politicial assignation ordered by the President since then. That Bag of dirty tricks should be behind us.)
    Last edited by Redleg; 05-09-2005 at 23:40.
    O well, seems like 'some' people decide to ruin a perfectly valid threat. Nice going guys... doc bean

  27. #27
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Venezuela's Chavez accuses oil companies of massive tax evasion

    Whats going to happen when he taxes the rch out of existance. Then where will he get jis money? Again I predict this will work no better than anyother communist socialist state. He may improve things in the short run but the people of Venezuela will pay a heavy price in the future. Every cmmunist dictator was first hailed as a savior of the people. In every case the people are worse off today.
    Fighting for Truth , Justice and the American way

  28. #28

    Default Re: Venezuela's Chavez accuses oil companies of massive tax evasion

    The right wing dictators were not dangerous to us. They cooperated.

    You know another socialist who did everything "for the good of the people"? Castro. We dont need another Castro in the western hemisphere. Who will he find support from this time? The chinese need oil and their party line is close enough to Chavez's.

  29. #29
    Feeding the Peanut Gallery Senior Member Redleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Venezuela's Chavez accuses oil companies of massive tax evasion

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJager
    The right wing dictators were not dangerous to us. They cooperated.

    You know another socialist who did everything "for the good of the people"? Castro. We dont need another Castro in the western hemisphere. Who will he find support from this time? The chinese need oil and their party line is close enough to Chavez's.
    Again so what - the nature of capitialism is compatetion (SP?) if China offers Venezula a better price for their oil - so be it.

    You can not have it both ways Panzer - if you believe in Capitialism - you have to allow the market of fluctuate even when the fluctuation is caused by a national government going into a socialist state - or selling to your direct competation.
    O well, seems like 'some' people decide to ruin a perfectly valid threat. Nice going guys... doc bean

  30. #30
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Venezuela's Chavez accuses oil companies of massive tax evasion

    Quote Originally Posted by JAG
    As for you Don, I will call you a lier when you blatantly lie about a man who is proposing real change for the poor in his country, real living standards increasing for those deprived for decades of hegemonic upper class corrupt democratic rule. You hate him because he doesn't let the US big business walk all over his country. You will not - and never - find me apologising for my remarks to you in this thread, they are fully deserved. If you do not like it - or loose any respect for me - tough, I don't give a damn.
    Alright, I'm going to address this one last time. Then, you can call me any name you can dream up. I just wish that you'd have the spine to act with a little consistency, either I'm a lying fascist or not.

    I said he had retroactively slapped a 50% tax on oil exports. I didn't claim that, the article did. I predicted that it wouldn't be the last time he tried that trick.

    I then said in 10 years, after he would have stolen all of the cash reserves, don't come bitching to us to bail them out. That's a prediction, not an assertion. I thought you were intelligent enough to note the difference. This article here shows that the man has a proven track record of putting his hand in the cookie jar: Venezuela has at least 2billion discrepancy in oil revenues English Tranlation

    From that, somehow you feel free to degrade my character and accuse me of being a liar, that I willingly make false statements against somebody. For the record, I don't hate Hugo Chavez, but I do think he's a blight on his people and I think when his work is done, it will be us capitalists whom you appear to despise so much that will be left to pay the bills.

    Why do I think that about Hugo Chavez? Well, beyond the 2 billion he's alredy made off with, he has no respect for property rights. He has eliminated the democratic tradition in his country. He has made bedfellows of Castro & Saddam Hussein. And after 7 years at the helm, his beloved people are no better off. Don't take my word for that, your beloved BBC documenting his abuses: Hugo Chavez in the BBC's eyes

    So again, call me any name you want to. I'm sorry you can't stand to see your sacred cows called to task, but honestly, were I you, I'd find better Marxist heroes then this Castro wannabe.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
    Strike for the South

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