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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default What's this got to do with the Pope?

    I remember patrons blaming the last Pope for single-handedly causing the spread of Aids in Africa. This should be a good antidote for them

    New York Times

    May 11, 2005

    AIDS Now Compels Africa to Challenge Widows' 'Cleansing'

    By SHARON LaFRANIERE
    MCHINJI, Malawi - In the hours after James Mbewe was laid to rest three years ago, in an unmarked grave not far from here, his 23-year-old wife, Fanny, neither mourned him nor accepted visits from sympathizers. Instead, she hid in his sister's hut, hoping that the rest of her in-laws would not find her.

    But they hunted her down, she said, and insisted that if she refused to exorcise her dead husband's spirit, she would be blamed every time a villager died. So she put her two small children to bed and then forced herself to have sex with James's cousin.

    "I cried, remembering my husband," she said. "When he was finished, I went outside and washed myself because I was very afraid. I was so worried I would contract AIDS and die and leave my children to suffer."

    Here and in a number of nearby nations including Zambia and Kenya, a husband's funeral has long concluded with a final ritual: sex between the widow and one of her husband's relatives, to break the bond with his spirit and, it is said, save her and the rest of the village from insanity or disease. Widows have long tolerated it, and traditional leaders have endorsed it, as an unchallenged tradition of rural African life.

    Now AIDS is changing that. Political and tribal leaders are starting to speak out publicly against so-called sexual cleansing, condemning it as one reason H.I.V. has spread to 25 million sub-Saharan Africans, killing 2.3 million last year alone. They are being prodded by leaders of the region's fledging women's rights movement, who contend that lack of control over their sex lives is a major reason 6 in 10 of those infected in sub-Saharan Africa are women.

    But change is coming slowly, village by village, hut by hut. In a region where belief in witchcraft is widespread and many women are taught from childhood not to challenge tribal leaders or the prerogatives of men, the fear of flouting tradition often outweighs even the fear of AIDS.

    "It is very difficult to end something that was done for so long," said Monica Nsofu, a nurse and AIDS organizer in the Monze district in southern Zambia, about 200 miles south of the capital, Lusaka. "We learned this when we were born. People ask, Why should we change?"

    In Zambia, where one out of five adults is now infected with the virus, the National AIDS Council reported in 2000 that this practice was very common. Since then, President Levy Mwanawasa has declared that forcing new widows into sex or marriage with their husband's relatives should be discouraged, and the nation's tribal chiefs have decided not to enforce either tradition, their spokesman said.

    Still, a recent survey by Women and Law in Southern Africa found that in at least one-third of the country's provinces, sexual "cleansing" of widows persists, said Joyce MacMillan, who heads the organization's Zambian chapter. In some areas, the practice extends to men.

    Some Defy the Risk

    Even some Zambian volunteers who work to curb the spread of AIDS are reluctant to disavow the tradition. Paulina Bubala, a leader of a group of H.I.V.-positive residents near Monze, counsels schoolchildren on the dangers of AIDS. But in an interview, she said she was ambivalent about whether new widows should purify themselves by having sex with male relatives.

    Her husband died of what appeared to be AIDS-related symptoms in 1996. Soon after the funeral, both Ms. Bubala and her husband's second wife covered themselves in mud for three days. Then they each bathed, stripped naked with their dead husband's nephew and rubbed their bodies against his.

    Weeks later, she said, the village headman told them this cleansing ritual would not suffice. Even the stools they sat on would be considered unclean, he warned, unless they had sex with the nephew.

    "We felt humiliated," Ms. Bubala said, "but there was nothing we could do to resist, because we wanted to be clean in the land of the headman."

    The nephew died last year. Ms. Bubala said the cause was hunger, not AIDS. Her husband's second wife now suffers symptoms of AIDS and rarely leaves her hut. Ms. Bubala herself discovered she was infected in 2000.

    But even the risk of disease does not dent Ms. Bubala's belief in the need for the ritual's protective powers. "There is no way we are going to stop this practice," she said, "because we have seen a lot of men and women who have gone mad" after spouses died.

    Ms. Nsofu, the nurse and AIDS organizer, argues that it is less important to convince women like Ms. Bubala than the headmen and tribal leaders who are the custodians of tradition and gatekeepers to change.

    "We are telling them, 'If you continue this practice, you won't have any people left in your village,' " she said. She cites people, like herself, who have refused to be cleansed and yet seem perfectly sane. Sixteen years after her husband died, she argues, "I am still me." Ms. Nsofu said she suggested to tribal leaders that sexual cleansing most likely sprang not from fears about the vengeance of spirits, but from the lust of men who coveted their relatives' wives. She proposes substituting other rituals to protect against dead spirits, like chanting and jumping back and forth over the grave or over a cow.

    Headman Is a Firm Believer

    Like their counterparts in Zambia, Malawi's health authorities have spoken out against forcing widows into sex or marriage. But in the village of Ndanga, about 90 minutes from the nation's largest city, Blantyre, many remain unconvinced.

    Evance Joseph Fundi, Ndanga's 40-year-old headman, is courteous, quiet-spoken and a firm believer in upholding the tradition. While some widows sleep with male relatives, he said, others ask him to summon one of the several appointed village cleansers. In the native language of Chewa, those men are known as fisis or hyenas because they are supposed to operate in stealth and at night.

    Mr. Fundi said one of them died recently, probably of AIDS. Still, he said with a charming smile, "We can not abandon this because it has been for generations."

    Since 1953, Amos Machika Schisoni has served as the principal village cleanser. He is uncertain of his age and it is not easily guessed at. His hair is grizzled but his arms are sinewy and his legs muscled. His hut of mud bricks, set about 50 yards from a graveyard, is even more isolated than most in a village of far-flung huts separated by towering weeds and linked by dirt paths.

    What Tradition Dictates

    He and the headman like to joke about the sexual demands placed upon a cleanser like Mr. Schisoni, who already has three wives. He said tradition dictates that he sleep with the widow, then with each of his own wives, and then again with the widow, all in one night. Mr. Schisoni said that the previous headman chose him for his sexual prowess after he had impregnated three wives in quick succession.

    Now, Mr. Schisoni, said he continues his role out of duty more than pleasure. Uncleansed widows suffer swollen limbs and are not free to remarry, he said. "If we don't do it, the widow will develop the swelling syndrome, get diarrhea and die and her children will get sick and die," he said, sitting under an awning of drying tobacco leaves. "The women who do this do not die."

    His wives support his work, he said, because they like the income: a chicken for each cleansing session. He insisted that he cannot wear a condom because "this will provoke some other unknown spirit." He is equally adamant in refusing an H.I.V. test. "I have never done it and I don't intend to do it," he said.

    To protect himself, he said, he avoids widows who are clearly quite sick . Told that even widows who look perfectly healthy can transmit the virus, Mr. Schisoni shook his head. "I don't believe this," he said. At the traditional family council after James Mbewe was killed in a truck accident in August 2002, Fanny Mbewe's mother and brothers objected to a cleanser, saying the risk of AIDS was too great. But Ms. Mbewe's in-laws insisted, she said. If a villager so much as dreamed of her husband, they told her, the family would be blamed for allowing his spirit to haunt their community on the Malawi-Zambia border.

    Her husband's cousin, to whom she refers only as Loimbani, showed up at her hut at 9 o'clock at night after the burial.

    "I was hiding my private parts," she said in an interview in the office of Women's Voice, a Malawian human rights group. "You want to have a liking for a man to have sex, not to have someone force you. But I had no choice, knowing the whole village was against me."

    Loimbani, she said, was blasé. "He said: 'Why are you running away? You know this is our culture. If I want, I could even make you my second wife."

    He did not. He left her only with the fear that she will die of the virus and that her children, now 8 and 10, will become orphans. She said she is too fearful to take an H.I.V. test.

    "I wish such things would change," she said.
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's this got to do with the Pope?




    Does that answer your question

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    Scruffy Looking Nerf Herder Member Steppe Merc's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's this got to do with the Pope?

    I don't see your pictures, Frag.

    But this is really messed up, and is why I did not agree with blaming the Pope for all the deaths in Africa caused by HIV. And it's kind of pathetic a government has to advise the tribal leaders, and can't actually tell them to stop doing this.

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    Ambiguous Member Byzantine Prince's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's this got to do with the Pope?

    The real problem is that these people don't exactly get wiped out. They don't die without having kids with the virus. They have sex a lot in Africa so it's very hard for the population not be grwoing in an insane rate. Hell if AIDS can't control it then what will!?!?

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    Default Re: What's this got to do with the Pope?

    They have sex a lot in Africa...

    Im considering making that part of my sig..


    This thread will most likely die with only these posts in it as all those who were so critical of JP will simply ignore it, as is so often the case.

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    Ambiguous Member Byzantine Prince's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's this got to do with the Pope?

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJager
    They have sex a lot in Africa...

    Im considering making that part of my sig..
    I'm still waiting to someone to sig my comment.

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    Feeding the Peanut Gallery Senior Member Redleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's this got to do with the Pope?

    Quote Originally Posted by Byzantine Prince
    The real problem is that these people don't exactly get wiped out. They don't die without having kids with the virus. They have sex a lot in Africa so it's very hard for the population not be grwoing in an insane rate. Hell if AIDS can't control it then what will!?!?
    So much wrong with this statement - So your now advocating AIDS as a method of population control. And some are scared of the far right on this board. I suggest with ideological views like this - some should be more scared of the socialist paradise you seem to advocate.

    Lets see now - lets shoot workers who do not perform to the government's work quota and use AIDS as a method of population control.

    Yep a real winner is amongst us in this forum.
    O well, seems like 'some' people decide to ruin a perfectly valid threat. Nice going guys... doc bean

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    Dyslexic agnostic insomniac Senior Member Goofball's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's this got to do with the Pope?

    Quote Originally Posted by AdrianII
    I remember patrons blaming the last Pope for single-handedly causing the spread of Aids in Africa. This should be a good antidote for them
    Hmmm. I haven't gone back reviewed the thread in question, but that seems like a bit of a troll to me Adrian. I don't remember anybody blaming the Pope for "single-handedly" causing the spread of AIDS in Africa.

    The fact is that Catholic dogma, which is more or less dictated by the Pope, forbids the use of condoms. And since the Pope consistently forbade the use of condoms, then there is no question that he was more of a hindrance than a help when it came to preventing the spread of AIDS in Africa (or anywhere, for that matter). Yes, I know the conservative response is "But he preached abstinence, which is the most perfect form of AIDS prevention," but the reality is that it is far easier to convince people to use condoms than it is to convince them not to have sex.
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    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's this got to do with the Pope?

    That's like saying "If you're going to steal, make sure you do it from businesses, not indviduals. Oh, and we shouldn't say stealing is wrong, because then they might get embarrassed and go back to stealing from individuals". I personally believe condoms are fine, but they clearly don't.

    If they truly believe it's wrong, aren't you demanding that they be hypocrites because you don't think human beings can restrain their sexual impulses?
    Last edited by Don Corleone; 05-12-2005 at 01:03.
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    Dyslexic agnostic insomniac Senior Member Goofball's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's this got to do with the Pope?

    Whoa, whoa, whoa, people! I am grouping this post:

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    If they truly believe it's wrong, aren't you demanding that they be hypocrites because you don't think human beings can restrain their sexual impulses?
    and this post:

    Quote Originally Posted by Proletariat
    Right, because the Pope is here to explain how to take the 'easier' route.



    Why do you presume that on the Pope's agenda there should be medical hygiene? He's here to save souls, not the flesh. I'm not even Catholic, let alone Christian and I can see that.

    You have placed an expectation on the Pope to be 'the greatest guy ever who will fix everything' and he isn't. He's just the head of a Church, here to advocate his faith.
    and this post:

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    Again, PP, I'm going to pose the same challenge to you that I did to Goofball. Instead of assuming the Pope's just like to screw with people and ruin all their fun (they do this because of a grinch-like mentality), consider for a moment that they actually believe the reasoning they've offered.
    together in my response, because they all make the same fundamental mistake. They all assume or accuse me of one of two things (or both things):

    1) Thinking that it is the Pope's responsibility to make AIDS prevention part of his agenda;

    and/or:

    2) Thinking the Pope has hidden, dastardly motives for forbidding his flock from using condoms.

    Neither of which is true.

    As to point 1, I never said anywhere that I believe the Pope should make AIDS fighting his number one concern. As far as I'm concerned, the Pope is a spiritual leader, not a civic problem solver. His job is to minister to the souls of his flock. If he believes that peoples' souls are in danger if they use condoms, then he has the responsibility to tell them not to use them, even if it does cause danger to their earthly bodies. But the fact remains:

    not using condoms = increased risk of AIDS.

    As to point 2, I made no comment in my post as to what motivates the Pope to forbid the use of condoms, but you two seem to think I believe him to have less than pure motivation. Again, not true. As I said above, I am certain the Pope thought he was absolutely doing the best thing for the souls of his flock when he forbade the use of condoms, and it is his job to worry about souls, not bodies. But again:

    not using condoms = increased risk of AIDS

    So what I said in my initial post cannot be argued against:

    Quote Originally Posted by Goofball
    there is no question that he was more of a hindrance than a help when it came to preventing the spread of AIDS in Africa
    Now, on to Gawain's ridiculous statement:

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    Even when we do you claim we are to stupid to understand your points. The Pope is in no way shape manner of form responsible for the spread of aids in Africa.Trying to say so pnly makes you look either silly or hows you have an unrasonable hate for the Pope and Catholics in general. Once more if they listened to him aids would practically dissappear but because they dont its his fault.
    Having sex is a natural human urge, and one that is often very hard to overcome. So, let me give you a scenario (and as weird as it may sound, coming from a long line of Catholics myself, not to mentioned being married to one, let me assure you that it is not that far-fetched):

    Young David Mwenge and his girlfriend Lisa Mtibi have been dating for many months and are in love . Lisa is a devout Catholic and has so far been able to heed the advice of her priest, so she has not sinned by having sex with David. One night, however, she weakens and in the heat of the moment has sex with David. As they were about to start, David pulled out a condom. Lisa, already feeling advance guilt about committing one sin, tells him not to wear the condom, because that would be adding another sin to the pile. Because David has not been nearly so pure as Lisa has been up to this point in their lives, David gives Lisa AIDS.

    At any rate, whether you believe that scenario could take place or not, the fact remains that preaching abstinence is not a solution to the prevention of AIDS. Since humankind came into existence, we have been driven by a powerful need to have sex. It is a fact that humans will continue to have sex with multiple partners before, during, and after marriage. At least if they use a condom they might not kill or be killed by that sex.

    No, it is not the Pope's responsibility to teach people about safe sex, but because of his teachings, more people will die of AIDS than would have had he not been specifically preaching against one major method of preventing the spread of the disease.

    Very simple.
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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's this got to do with the Pope?

    not to mentioned being married to one, let me assure you that it is not that far-fetched):
    Its not far fetched its sheer stupidity. She will commit a mortal sin and have sex but wont use a condom when its ony its a venial sin. If your souls going to hell what difference will using a condom make. Using a condom is like telling a lie. I dont know a single Catholic here who doesnt use condoms because they think its a sin. They dont use them because it spoils the experience. Im sure she was lying there all hot getting sex for the fiirst time and the man went to put on a condom and she thought of what the Pope said and told him no I dont want to sin anymore than I HAVE to.

    Its like murdering someone but not robbing their watch because you dont want to get in anymore trouble than you already are.
    Last edited by Gawain of Orkeny; 05-12-2005 at 18:17.
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    Dyslexic agnostic insomniac Senior Member Goofball's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's this got to do with the Pope?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    Its not far fetched its sheer stupidity. She will commit a mortal sin and have sex but wont use a condom when its ony its a venial sin.
    Really? Far-fetched?

    Hmmm...

    I thought we were talking about a people who believe that women swell-up like blowfish and get cases of the screaming scoots and die if they don't have sex with their dead husbands' brothers.

    But I guess you're right. My scenario was so far-fetched it could only take place in a really superstitious culture...

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    Senior Member Senior Member Ser Clegane's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's this got to do with the Pope?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    She will commit a mortal sin and have sex but wont use a condom when its ony its a venial sin. If your souls going to hell what difference will using a condom make.
    Uhm ... what "mortal" sin for which her soul is "going to hell" did the fictional Lisa Mtibi commit?

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    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's this got to do with the Pope?

    Goof, that was a beautiful post. Well thought out, made some great points, and you certainly managed to remain true to your original statements.

    But you never actually answered what I thought was a very basic question.

    Hypothetically speaking, if the Pope truly believes it's wrong to use birth control, isn't it incumbent on him to teach that? Wouldn't it be hypocritical of him not to?

    Now, as to your point that regardless of his intent, the result of his teachings means more AIDS.... I completely and utterly disagree. Gawain is completely right about this. If people were following his teachings, AIDS would exist in textbooks only right now.

    Even with 100% condom usage, AIDS is not preventable if you engage in risky behavior, such as having multiple partners. What's more, even in places like San Francisco, where schools are legally required to make condoms available, and health department officials stream through every other day to talk about how important it is to use them, they still see their number of new cases rising, not falling. Why? Because the people engaging in this high risk sex don't want to use condoms. It cramps their style.

    I imagine if you asked "ACT-UP", they'd say it's your fault and mine that AIDS is on the rise. If we would just give more tax money to the government, the NIH would have a cure by now and why should they have to cramp their style with condoms.

    Condom use is NOT the panacea you all seem to think it is. In light of that, you still expect an organization with thousands of years of teaching on the subject to make a U-turn, because it MIGHT make a difference. Give me a freakin break. How much bending over do we have to do?
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    Dyslexic agnostic insomniac Senior Member Goofball's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's this got to do with the Pope?

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    Goof, that was a beautiful post. Well thought out, made some great points, and you certainly managed to remain true to your original statements.
    Thanks Don.



    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    But you never actually answered what I thought was a very basic question.

    Hypothetically speaking, if the Pope truly believes it's wrong to use birth control, isn't it incumbent on him to teach that? Wouldn't it be hypocritical of him not to?
    Actually, I did answer that question when I said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Goofball
    His job is to minister to the souls of his flock. If he believes that peoples' souls are in danger if they use condoms, then he has the responsibility to tell them not to use them, even if it does cause danger to their earthly bodies.
    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    Now, as to your point that regardless of his intent, the result of his teachings means more AIDS.... I completely and utterly disagree. Gawain is completely right about this. If people were following his teachings, AIDS would exist in textbooks only right now.
    Well, I guess we have to disagree then, for the reasons I have already put forth.

    But again, here is my point:

    If the Pope's preaching against condom use has prevented even one HIV-infected man or woman from using condoms, then the Pope is inarguably (albeit indirectly) responsible for increasing the spread of the AIDS virus. Or, if you are uncomfortable with holding him responsible, how about this: The Pope has been a detriment to the fight against the spread of AIDS.

    Quote Originally Posted by AdrianII
    Isn't it surprising that a thread about some of the worst obscurantism in Africa is turned into yet another debate pro and contra the Pope? I believe this thread demonstrates that some of the Church's critics aren't interested in Africa or Aids at all, only in criticising the Church.
    You're kidding, right?

    You start a thread entitled "What's this got to do with the Pope?" that features an article discussing AIDS in Africa, then slam people for discussing the Pope and his impact on AIDS in Africa?

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    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's this got to do with the Pope?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goofball
    Hmmm. I haven't gone back reviewed the thread in question, but that seems like a bit of a troll to me Adrian. I don't remember anybody blaming the Pope for "single-handedly" causing the spread of AIDS in Africa.

    The fact is that Catholic dogma, which is more or less dictated by the Pope, forbids the use of condoms. And since the Pope consistently forbade the use of condoms, then there is no question that he was more of a hindrance than a help when it came to preventing the spread of AIDS in Africa (or anywhere, for that matter). Yes, I know the conservative response is "But he preached abstinence, which is the most perfect form of AIDS prevention," but the reality is that it is far easier to convince people to use condoms than it is to convince them not to have sex.

    i specifically remember some sayign that the pope had their blood on his hands and he actually killed millions
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    Default Re: What's this got to do with the Pope?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goofball
    Yes, I know the conservative response is "But he preached abstinence, which is the most perfect form of AIDS prevention," but the reality is that it is far easier to convince people to use condoms than it is to convince them not to have sex.
    Right, because the Pope is here to explain how to take the 'easier' route.



    Why do you presume that on the Pope's agenda there should be medical hygiene? He's here to save souls, not the flesh. I'm not even Catholic, let alone Christian and I can see that.

    You have placed an expectation on the Pope to be 'the greatest guy ever who will fix everything' and he isn't. He's just the head of a Church, here to advocate his faith.
    Last edited by Proletariat; 05-12-2005 at 01:07.

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    Actual Person Member Paul Peru's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's this got to do with the Pope?

    Quote Originally Posted by Proletariat
    Why do you presume that on the Pope's agenda there should be medical hygiene? He's here to save souls, not the flesh. I'm not even Catholic, let alone Christian and I can see that.
    He did on occasion speak out against gratuitous flesh-destroying, though...
    Quote Originally Posted by Proletariat
    You have placed an expectation on the Pope to be 'the greatest guy ever who will fix everything' and he isn't. He's just the head of a Church, here to advocate his faith.
    As long as he's free to do that, it should be OK for others to be free to say that they disagree. And it's not unheard of for the catholic church to change their views to bring them closer to decency and common sense. We just won't see it with the current pope.
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    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's this got to do with the Pope?

    Again, PP, I'm going to pose the same challenge to you that I did to Goofball. Instead of assuming the Pope's just like to screw with people and ruin all their fun (they do this because of a grinch-like mentality), consider for a moment that they actually believe the reasoning they've offered.

    Is your argument that they should be hypocrites and say it's okay because you don't think Africans are capable of controlling their sexual impulses or thinking for themselves? That's a pretty low opinion of humanity.
    Last edited by Don Corleone; 05-12-2005 at 14:07.
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    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
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  20. #20
    Actual Person Member Paul Peru's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's this got to do with the Pope?

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    Again, PP, I'm going to pose the same challenge to you that I did to Goofball. Instead of assuming the Pope's just like to screw with people and ruin all their fun (they do this because of a grinch-like mentality), consider for a moment that they actually believe the reasoning they've offered.

    Is your argument that they should be hypocrites and say it's okay because you don't think Africans are capable of controlling their sexual impulses or thinking for themselves? That's a pretty low opinion of humanity.
    This will be my final post in this thread, as I'm about to say the N-word, and thus disqualify and discredit myself entirely.
    Here I go:
    I think a lot of Nazis believed in what they were doing. I still think they were wrong, and that bringing them to trial was right.

    As for the sexual impulses of Africans, I'd guess they were about the same as for people on other continents. Culture and tradition may promote promiscuity to a larger extent in some countries. If they abstained from sex, they'd be all right, yes. Most people tend not to though, independent of continent. American youths are very much into extended Clintonesque definitions these days, I hear.

    But if the church had any decency and concern for the suffering of those people they'd say "Be faithful or abstinent, but if you can't then for St. Pete's sake use a condom!!" There are other cases where some evils have been graded as less than others. I can't imagine how using a condom is worse than bringing hiv home to your wife, or equivalent for that matter.
    Sono Pazzi Questi Romani
    Paul Peru: Holier than thy bucket!

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