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Thread: Favourite Historic Battle

  1. #31
    Member Member sharrukin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Favourite Historic Battle

    My favoured battles;

    Manzikert 1071 AD Byzantines defeated by the Seljuk Turks through their own stupidity or treachery

    Carrhae 53 BC Parthians eliminate Roman army with almost no losses using horse archers and armoured cavalry. The armoured cavalry forced the Romans to concentrate their men for the expected charge and the horse archers massacred the bunched up Romans. If the infantry dispersed the heavy cavalry charged.

    Cannae 216 BC classic envelope and eliminate battle.

    First Crusade and the siege of Antioch in particular. They shouldn't have won but somehow they did.
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
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  2. #32
    Member Member sharrukin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Favourite Historic Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by PittBull260
    somebody actually ROUTED a mongol army in the 1200s?? damn impressive :)

    i'd like to learn more about this battle
    the numbers, who had a larger army etc.
    The two armies were about even though the Mamluks were professional Turkish cavalry and understood the Mongol style of warfare. For the Mongols only about 15,000 of the 25,000 they had were actual mongols.

    http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:c...=en&lr=lang_en
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
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  3. #33
    King: AJC MEMBER(ON THE LIST) Member King Arthur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Favourite Historic Battle

    i like the battle of lake trasimeno. where HANnibal barca defeated 25,000 romans. in 217bc
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  4. #34
    Tovenaar Senior Member The Wizard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Favourite Historic Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by sharrukin
    The two armies were about even though the Mamluks were professional Turkish cavalry and understood the Mongol style of warfare. For the Mongols only about 15,000 of the 25,000 they had were actual mongols.

    http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:c...=en&lr=lang_en
    Not true. The Mamluks massively outnumbered the Mongols. It was nothing but a short skirmish between 120000 Mamluks and only 15000 Mongols with 10000 allies (Georgians, Armenians). What chance do you give a second- or even third-rate general such as Khetburga against a good commander such as Sultan Quduz and Baibars, with a much, much larger army?

    The Mamluks were expecting Hulagu's full fury, not this... token force. A battle massively overrated in history.



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    Last edited by The Wizard; 05-17-2005 at 17:02.
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  5. #35
    Intifadah Member Dâriûsh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Favourite Historic Battle

    I hear conflicting figures. Can you present a source?
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  6. #36
    Viceroy of the Indian Empire Member Duke Malcolm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Favourite Historic Battle

    The Battle of Waterloo, for a few simple reasons :

    1. We won
    2. It was a defeat for the French and Napoleon
    3. It meant the end of France's Empire
    4. So much of British tradition is around it
    5. The Scots were in it (on the winning side)
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  7. #37

    Default Re: Favourite Historic Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by The Wizard
    Legnica.

    It wasn't that large -- 30000 Poles facing off against 20000 Mongols.

    ~Wiz
    Hello Wiz,
    I chose Kalka but Mohi and Legnica were also uppermost as they exemplify the strategical genious of Subedei. There has always been conflicting reports about army sizes and Legnica is one of these. 'Historia Tatarorum', has accounts written on the travels of Carpini and Benedict 1245 - 1247 and details taken directly from Mongols who had participated in the battle only a few years earlier. One section states that Batu divided his army on the Hungarian border and sent "10,000 warriors under his brother Orda against Poland". That amounts to only a single Tumen and not the two that are usually mentioned. If we assume that this Tumen was complete at this point, we must still consider Mongol losses as they campaigned through Poland. It has been suggested that the Mongol army at Legnica was more probably about 8,000. Modern theories have estimated Henry's army to be a similar size.
    Whether this is true or not we will never know but we do have the overall campaign strategy and this foray into Poland was an utterly tremendous distraction from the main event.

    But do remember that by the time Aïn Jalut took place, Hulagu had already withdrawn his main forces from Syria. What Baibars faced was nothing but a token force left behind by Hulagu, perhaps in the hope that the Mamluks would be too scared of the Mongols' reputation to do anything against them. 120000 men versus only 25000, of which only 15000 were Mongols.

    The two armies were about even though the Mamluks were professional Turkish cavalry and understood the Mongol style of warfare.
    Two very different accounts of the same battle. It depends where you glean your source from and even then we cannot be sure of actual facts.

    The facts that we do know about Ain Jalut are that Hulegu had indeed withdrawn his extended forces to security in light of recent developments within the ruling house of the Mongols. He had the Golden Horde threatening in the West, Qaidu threatened his rear and civil war between Qubilai and Ariq boke in the East. Due to the allegiance between Berke and the Mamluks, some Princes of the White Horde present in Hulegus army, had been executed which only added to his problems.
    Kit Buqa was left behind with a nominal force, very few of his men were Mongols, the majority were recent Armenian and Georgian conscripts and he was forced to put down a rebellion in Damascus which allowed Kutuz time to negotiate safe passage through Christian territory. This again was due to the treachery of the Christian forces who could not make up their minds who to trust. During this time the Mamluk numbers were reinforced by Golden Horde warriors and various Moslem fugitives from the recent rebellion. It is fair to say that Kit Buqa was completely outnumbered.
    The battle was not fought in the traditional Mongol fashion, possibly because he knew these tactics would not work. Perhaps he was hoping that Mongol terror would be enough. Whatever the case, Kit Buqa charged the Mamluk vanguard and broke it and the Mongols continued to give chase down the valley into the Mamluk main force. It has been suggested this was a feigned retreat and the Mongols fell for their own trick but I doubt this as Kit Buqa was a very experienced Commander. The Mongol front line continued and crushed the Mamluk vanguard, the rest swung right and bore down on the Mamluk left flank which crumbled. Kutuz desperately regained his flank with men from his right and eventually the Mamluk position either side of the Mongols was achieved. A last massed charge won the day for the Mamluk army.

    Even though this was only a minor achievment militarily, it had lasting effect on the area. However the political turmoil of the Mongol Royal House also played a large part in the lack of return of Mongol Tumens to both Syria and Europe

    .......Orda

  8. #38
    Professional Cynic Member Innocentius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Favourite Historic Battle

    Necro-post but what the heck:

    Battle of Tours, 732 - I think we all know the story being this one...

    Battle of Hastings, 1066 - Same as above.

    Battle of Hattin/Horns of hattin, 1187 - The Crusaders got rather owned, so to speak.

    Battle of Lena, 1208 - Probably completely unknown to all non-Swedes, but it was a pretty decisive battle in (pre)Swedish history. A large (the number is uncertain, medieval soruces claim 12 000 but 2000 is a more likely figure) Danish force invaded [what would soon become] Sweden and were beaten. How this was done is not known though.

    Battle of Lake Peipus, 1242 - Another famous battle. Crusaders getting owned again.

    Battle of Halidon Hill, 1333 - Pretty complete English victory against the Scots. One of the first major victories of the longbow.

    Batle of Crécy, 1346 - Simply deserves to be mentioned. Somewhat upsized though, and it seems to be the general impression that this was the first use of the longbow in medieval warfare...

    Battle of Verneuil, 1424 - Often forgotten in favour for Agincourt and Crécy. "The second Agincourt".

    Battle of Towton, 1461 - Bloodiest battle on English soil. Perfect setting in time and place for a battle as well.

    Battle of Nördlingen, 1634 - The first major Swedish defeat in The 30 Year's War. A turnpoint for the war.

    Battle of Narva, 1700 - A pretty complete Swedish victory against the Russians. One of my favourite battle when it comes to manouvering and strategies, second only to the

    Battle of Holowczyn, 1708 - A "decent" Swedish victory against far superior numbers.

    Battle of Poltava, 1709 - Total and utter Swedish defeat. 'Nuff said.

    Battle of the Somme, 1916 - Another famous battle, I think you already know most about it.

    Battle of the Bulge, 1944-1945 - How can you not be interested in this battle after seing Band of Brothers?
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  9. #39
    A Member Member Conradus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Favourite Historic Battle

    One of my alltime favourites has always been the Battle of the Catalonian Fields. Almost a rigor mortis of the WRE-military and on the other side Attila who -if omens and stories are to be believed- went into battle just to kill aetius, knowing he'd lose.

  10. #40
    Imperialist Brit Member Orb's Avatar
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    Default Re: Favourite Historic Battle

    Narva, Durazzo and Ilipa for me.
    Last edited by Orb; 11-29-2006 at 20:56.


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    Default Re: Favourite Historic Battle

    Wellingtons seiges, Badajoz, gawalhir, -not much in tactics but simply the ability of the british common soldier
    Waterloo

    forgot who the commanders were but battle of Bussaco

    Seige of Vienna

    Battle of Stalingrad

    Milavian Bridge

    Adrianople

    Gettysburg

    Battle of Delphi
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  12. #42
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Favourite Historic Battle

    Saratoga/Freeman's Farm

    Battle of the Frontiers

    Aboukir Bay

    Camperdown

    First Ploesti Raid

    Belleau Wood

    Clontarf

    Easter Rising

    Chancellorsville

    ...numerous others
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  13. #43
    Professional Cynic Member Innocentius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Favourite Historic Battle

    Adding three:

    Battle of Courtrai, 1302 - Flemish victory against France.
    Battle of Bannockburn, 1314 - Scottish victory against the English.
    Battle of Morgarten, 1315 - Swiss victory against the Duke of Austria.

    Three battles that put an end to the age of chivalry.
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  14. #44
    Guest Stig's Avatar
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    Default Re: Favourite Historic Battle

    Arnhem for me

    *looks at personnal Arnhem library*

  15. #45
    Join the ICLADOLLABOJADALLA! Member IrishArmenian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Favourite Historic Battle

    Vartanian Fields. It was a defeat on our side, but the Persians got the message we wouldn't be Zoarastrians and we would stay Christian. Also lead by a Patron Saint of Armenia: St. Vartan Being Armenian, I must say this, it is like English and Agincourt.
    Bannockburn, love the use of the stakes.
    Siege of Samarkand: Psy-Ops at its greatest.
    Midway: U.S. makes the Empire pay for every last one of its mistakes. Brilliant.
    Last edited by IrishArmenian; 11-30-2006 at 16:03.

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  16. #46
    Feeding the Peanut Gallery Senior Member Redleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Favourite Historic Battle

    Gettysburg
    Verdun
    Battle of Midway
    Battle of the Bulge
    Stalingrad
    O well, seems like 'some' people decide to ruin a perfectly valid threat. Nice going guys... doc bean

  17. #47
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Favourite Historic Battle

    There are so many.Im bit biased but if i would have to pick one i would pick Battle of Suomussalmi.Here is a link to the engagement:

    http://www.winterwar.com/Battles/Suomussalmi.htm
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  18. #48
    Crusading historian Member cegorach's Avatar
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    Default Re: Favourite Historic Battle

    I would chose three from Polish history

    all are running battles, each more incredible than another one

    so

    Ochmatow 1644 - large battle against Tatars - about 15-20 000 soldiers on each side. Wintertime and incredible coordination of the Polish force - 3 armies without almost any contact with each other managed to play the battle according to detailed plan and met in the same place DURING a battle without delays even though we coming from completely different directions and had from 100 to 450 kilometers to move.
    Without radio, mobile phones or wireless internet

    Szklow 1654 - one of the hardest cavalry battles I could find.

    Lithuanian army of 3000-4200 against over 20 000 strong Russian force.
    Battle fought during an eclipse lasted to 9 p.m. and resulted in full retreat of the Russian force.

    Finally the most incredible feat of Jan Sobieski - the one known from the relief of Vienna - Sobieski's campaign against the Tatars in 1672 - with less than 2500 grizzled veterans Sobieski defeated over 20 000 strong Tatar forces in a series of over 10 battles in time of roughly two weeks of constant struggle.
    Imagine - cavalry and dragoon force moves during autumn flooding rivers and streams, divides and reunites again and fights, fights, fights !
    You need top quality force to achive something virtually unheard of for ordinary european army defeat fleet-footed nomads using their own tactics.

    The campaign amongst others gave Sobieski the nickname 'Lion of Poland' - the name was often enough to scare of the Tatar and Ottoman forces during the ufortuanate string of Polish-Ottoman clashes.

  19. #49
    Senior Member Senior Member Reenk Roink's Avatar
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    Default Re: Favourite Historic Battle

    River Trebia. Pure Genius!

    Quote Originally Posted by Baba Ga'on
    Why Aïn Jalut? It was a battle of a huge Mamluk army vs the Mongol vanguard... or was that rear guard? Anyways, the Mongols were hugely outnumbered, fielding a token force vs. probably all the forces of the Mamluk sultanate. It was a victory against nothing. It meant nothing. Except the defeat of a rear guard lagging behind some 300 kilometers.
    I thought that the numbers were fairly even? According to The Mamluk-Ilkhanid War at least.
    Last edited by Reenk Roink; 12-05-2006 at 00:59.

  20. #50
    Senior Member Senior Member Reenk Roink's Avatar
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    Default Re: Favourite Historic Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by Innocentius
    Battle of Tours, 732 - I think we all know the story being this one...
    I don't understand why this battle gets so much mention and the seige of Constantinople in 717 is ignored...

  21. #51
    Professional Cynic Member Innocentius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Favourite Historic Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by Reenk Roink
    River Trebia. Pure Genius!
    Pah! All these Roman/Carthaginian battles are overrated

    Interesting battles there, cegorah, never heard of them before. Speaking of Polish battles, Fraustadt 1706 is a favourite of mine.

    Turning my attention to some local history I say Battle of Brunkeberg, fought right outside Stockholm on October 10 1471. The Sture party with it's army of mostly armed-peasants (although experienced, well-equiped and hardened ones) charged and defeated a Danish army that had a good defensive position on the ridge Brunkeberg. The numbers of the two armies are uncertain, although it's likely that the Sture party's army was the larger of the two. One figure suggested is 10 000 for the Sture party, and 5 000 for King Christian I of Denmark. This is only a guess though, and it's likely that the numbers were less impressive. Pretty far from the huge battles of the Hundred Years War and other 15th century conflicts.
    When the Danes retreated towards the island of Käpplingen, the bridge leading to it was destroyed by Swedish troops. Many drowned and even more were taken prisoners. Again, the exact figure of casualties is unknown.
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  22. #52
    Professional Cynic Member Innocentius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Favourite Historic Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by Reenk Roink
    I don't understand why this battle gets so much mention and the seige of Constantinople in 717 is ignored...
    All about education I guess. I was taught already from the first time I had medieval history in school (at the age of 8 or something) that the Great Charles Martel defeated the Muslims there and saved Europe. Eastern European history is often left out unfortuneately.
    Agreed that Tours is over-estimated though.
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  23. #53
    Senior Member Senior Member Reenk Roink's Avatar
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    Default Re: Favourite Historic Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by Innocentius
    All about education I guess. I was taught already from the first time I had medieval history in school (at the age of 8 or something) that the Great Charles Martel defeated the Muslims there and saved Europe. Eastern European history is often left out unfortuneately.
    Agreed that Tours is over-estimated though.
    Blame Edward Gibbon...

  24. #54
    Member Member Spart's Avatar
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    Default Re: Favourite Historic Battle

    Ancient: I love Greeks and I love Thermopylae, and Troy (though was it fictional or not, both wyas I love the story of that battle/war What would it clasify as)

    Somewhere in between: Any European battle fought on the mainland west of Poland, though The battles for Jerusalem are amongst my favourite

    Contemporary: the 6 Day war, I mean one tiny nation against 6 massive countries, That has to have greater odds than 3:1 (not taking a dig at anyone, just looking at it objectivley, the odds were stacked against Israel and they still won in 6 days)

  25. #55

    Default Re: Favourite Historic Battle

    Zama and Chalons (Campi Catalaunici).

    Both battles were fought against seemingly invincible "barbarian" leaders who almost brought Rome to its knees. The battles were only won through incredibly innovative, talented, and "heroic" generals (maybe that's an overstatement). Both were examples that Rome could pull through and win even in the most dire situations. (Though Atilla was definently not defeated at Chalons, if he had won then the Empire probably would have been completely destroyed)

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  26. #56
    Member Member Derfasciti's Avatar
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    Default Re: Favourite Historic Battle

    This thread makes me think about how I really don't much about history compared to most here

    I'll take a shot at it though:

    Waterloo- One of the most celebrated and decisive battles in history.
    Gettysburg- Same reason
    Battle of Berlin
    Bannockburn
    Whichever battle was the most decisive in the English Civil War...Naseby wasn't it?


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  27. #57
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    Default Re: Favourite Historic Battle

    Both Sieges of Constantinople

    We all know what happened to the Byzantine Empire once Constantinople fell in 1204, which makes the earlier sieges of Constantinople by the Arabs even more impressive. We have a raging powerhouse empire attempting to cripple and annihilate an empire which was in the stages of desperate survival but clearly declining in resources and territory by capturing the glorious capital of Constantinople.

    MASSIVELY UNDERRATED and sickening when I hear the Battle of Tours being touted as the battle that saved Europe...
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  28. #58
    Gwledig of the Brythons Member Agraes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Favourite Historic Battle

    A popular yet very mysterious one: the battle of Badon Hill, circa 500 AD.

    I just quote the description we made of it for Arthurian: TW. It describes also a theory of what *might* have happened.

    "After this, sometimes our countrymen, sometimes the enemy, won the field, to the end that our Lord might in this land try after his accustomed manner these his Israelites, whether they loved him or not, until the year of the siege of Mount Badon, when took place also the last almost, though not the least slaughter of our cruel foe."
    St. Gildas the Wise, De Excidio Britanniae, VIth century.

    "The twelfth was a most severe contest, when Arthur penetrated to the hill of Badon. In this engagement, nine hundred and forty fell by his hand alone, no one but the Lord affording him assistance. In all these engagements the Britons were successful."
    Historia Brittonum, IXth century.

    "The battle of Badon, in which Arthur carried the cross of the Christ for three days and three nights on his shield, and the Britons were victors."
    Annales Cambriae, Xth century.

    We know from Gildas that Badon Hill was a victory for the Britons, around 500 AD, that will bring a period of peace up to the time he was writing, in the middle of the VIth century. Gildas don't name the commanders at Badon, but later texts do name Arthur. This is the main argument in favor of Arthur's historicity and importance in history, as a warlord strong enough to led the Britons to victory. There are tons of theoris about his identification, as a Northern warrior king or a Southern Aristocrat. One fact must stay: if Arthur existed, he was the commander at Badon. We portray him as a prince from the royal line of Dumnonia, cousin to Gereint, the Dumnonian king but his sovereign as the Amherawddyr: the Emperor, commanding the military forces of Britain against common foes - thought this is a theory much debated.

    Arthur first major victories would have been at Dubglas, near Lincoln. Here he fought the Angles of Eomer and Icel, and eventually recovered Lincoln for a while, breaking their power. Another major english power remained in the south-east, the coalition of Kent and Sussex under Aesc and Aelle. Even for those who didn't believe in Arthur, it's likely that it was their power that was broken at Badon. Badon's date in the Annales Cambriae is given as 516 AD (or 518 AD), but most historians argues in favor of a derivation on this date, on the basis that Gildas said that we was writing 44 years after this battle, when Maelgwn Gwynedd was still alive so before 550 AD. So a date around 500 AD is much more likely, and the date of 496 AD have been advanced by some.

    Onto Badon's location, there are several major sites like Little Solsbury Hill overlooking Bath, or Liddington Castle. British linguists insist on the fact that Badon must be a germanic name, but the word is known in Irish as meaning "round-place", and it is very unlikely that a Brythonic monk, writing in an period where the Britons were still dominating their island, would have named the location of a Brythonic victory over the English, deep in British territory, by an Old English name... We chose Liddington castle as its position is highly strategic - taking for basis Rosemary Sutcliff in her "Sword at Sunset" novel. Liddington hillfort was refortified in the Vth century, it overlooks two major roman roads and the Ridgeway, and the terrain around is very suitable for cavalry. An English army aiming for the rich Somerset area and the cities of Gloucester, Bath and Cirencester would have been very likely to pass near Liddington.

    Now unto our Badon Hill scenario. Some years ago, Arthur had crushed the Angles at Dubglas, leaving them unable to help the other germanic tribes. Aelle of the young kingdom of the South Saxons have been set accordingly to the tradition the first bretwalda, a near title of the Brythonic Amherawddyr. He is allied with Aesc, the son of Hengest, founder of the Jutish kingdom of Kent. The english gathered and march along the Ridgeway, aiming to attack the rich british territories between Dumnonia and Gwent. Such a major invasion must have been well-planned, so the near Brythonic kingdoms unite their forces under Arthur's banner. Contigents of Dumnonia , Gwent and their sub-kingdoms would have been present, eventually under the command of Gereint, the Dumnonian king, and Caradoc Vreichvras ("Strong-Arm"), prince of Caer Glew. Irish texts (not yet published) also mentions a contigent of 300 Mumainha warriors sent to help the Britons at Badon. Arthur's cavalry is stationned in the fort of Badon - Liddington - and its sister fort at the other side of the valley, while the other british troops stand in the valley, awaiting the English. Those would essentially involve Athelings and their warbands, as hundredmen and other levies were needed to hold their lands, and non-professional warriors are unlikely to have accepted to leave their families to die that deep in foreign territory. Jutish forces may have also counted some Frankish elements, and some cavalry. They however needed lot of logistic, and had to live in hostile land some they were probably weakened.

    Nennius's account of what was probably once a battle-listing poem said that Arthur killed 940 men in one charge. It is possible that his cavalry sallied out of the forts and take the English by the back when they were expected to do a frontal assault. In the end, the invading army was annilhated, and both Aesc and Aelle probably killed. Survivors had little chance to escape that far of their home. This left the Anglo-Saxons in a very weak position. Arthur eventually took back part of the South Saxons territory, there is evidence supported by both archeology and historic texts of English seaking refuge on the continent. There is no Bretwalda recorded for around 70 years. A period of relative peace ensued, without major germanic advance before the second part of the VIth century. Nor Kent, nor Sussex will be able to do any major blow to the British anymore, and ironically, this left the room for other germanic kingdoms to be founded and to defeat the Britons several decades later: Mercia, Bernicia, and Wessex.

    We must quote Pr. John Morris "The Age of Arthur" to conclude about Badon and its aftermaths. It's a old book, and Morris have been criticised a lot by his use of sources, but it is still a major piece of work.

    "Badon was the 'final victory of the fatherland'. It ended a war whose issue had already been decided. The British had beaten back the barbarians. They stood alone in Europe, the only remaining corner of the western Roman world where a native power whithstood the all-Conquering Germans. Yet the price of victory was the loss of almost everything the victors had taken arms to defend. Ambrosius and Arthur had fought to restore the roman civilisation into which they had been born. But in most of Britain, the society of their fathers was ruined beyond repair. What it emerged was a new world, startling not only because it differed from the past, but because it differed from the rest of Europe."

  29. #59
    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: Favourite Historic Battle

    Battle of Sedan
    Battle of Königgrätz
    Battle of Mars-La-Tour
    Siege of Metz
    Battle of Tolvajärvi
    Battle of Suomussalmi
    Battle of Capporeto

  30. #60
    American since 2012 Senior Member AntiochusIII's Avatar
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    Default Re: Favourite Historic Battle

    On the subject of Tours: the myth is just annoying. Charles Martel did not defeat the great Muslim horde that would've conquered half of Europe on its own ala Genghis Khan, he defeated a single army from an empire that stretches farther than Alexander's own and even then had to fight the Saracens for decades before his son finally expelled them from southern France. Tours' significance is more with Martel's status himself and the Frankish domination of the region, which pretty much only strengthens the rising Carolingian Empire and secure its southwestern flank from any other dangerous invasions.

    I mean, sure, it's important, but for Martel and the Franks. Not a world-shattering super battle that decided the fate of the world between Christ and Mohammed it's often portrayed as. Besides, Gibbons is annoying. Like Tours, he's important, even a landmark, but his attitudes and biases have become so mainstream "popular history" it's bothering me bad. How many high school kids have been taught that Christianity brought down Rome?

    Now, on the topic: I can't choose. Period. I must admit though that for sheer (vain?)glorious symbolic defeat nothing beats Waterloo. It's big, it's dramatic, it's the First French Empire's final downfall and effectively reverses what the Revolution had done for several decades. Of course, many doubt even if Bonaparte won a devastating, no-survivors victory (ala Chalons/Catalonian fields, where the Western Roman Empire's entire military was effectively gone) at Waterloo, he'd manage to restore his former Empire.

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