Favourite Historic Battle

[Dâriûsh]

Why Aïn Jalut? It was a battle of a huge Mamluk army vs the Mongol vanguard... or was that rear guard? Anyways, the Mongols were hugely outnumbered, fielding a token force vs. probably all the forces of the Mamluk sultanate. It was a victory against nothing. It meant nothing. Except the defeat of a rear guard lagging behind some 300 kilometers.

It was an important battle in many ways. Primarily because it gave rise to future Sultan Baibars and secured the Mameluke Sultanate another two-and-a-half centuries of rule. Also, had Egypt too fallen to the Mongols, it could quite possibly have meant the death-blow to Islam, furthermore it would have provided the Mongols with the opportunity to march across Northern Africa. And I gather that a Mongol invasion of Spain could have had severe consequences for Christian Europe. Merely speculation, I know, but interesting nonetheless.

Nineveh, 627, where Heraklios defeated the Sassanid army, ending the Sassanid invasion of Asian Rome. The best part of the battle is actually before it -- the maid-o-maid (single combat; does the term still survive in modern Persian?) between the Persian commander Razatis and the East Roman basileios Heraklios!

Maid-o-Maid is in Middle Persian. In Fârsi it is Mard-o-Mard.

[The Wizard]

It was an important battle in many ways. Primarily because it gave rise to future Sultan Baibars and secured the Mameluke Sultanate another two-and-a-half centuries of rule. Also, had Egypt too fallen to the Mongols, it could quite possibly have meant the death-blow to Islam, furthermore it would have provided the Mongols with the opportunity to march across Northern Africa. And I gather that a Mongol invasion of Spain could have had severe consequences for Christian Europe. Merely speculation, I know, but interesting nonetheless.

Your first points are valid, and something I hadn't thought of before.

But do remember that by the time Aïn Jalut took place, Hulagu had already withdrawn his main forces from Syria. What Baibars faced was nothing but a token force left behind by Hulagu, perhaps in the hope that the Mamluks would be too scared of the Mongols' reputation to do anything against them. 120000 men versus only 25000, of which only 15000 were Mongols.

Hulagu had no immediate plans anymore to take on the Mamluks -- he was surrounded and very far from any support, and that with a very slow-moving Mongolian army. He, like Subedei and Batu before him, but this time out of strategical reasons rather than purely formal ones, decided to withdraw to what he had previously conquered to consolidate his ulu.

Maid-o-Maid is in Middle Persian. In Fârsi it is Mard-o-Mard.

Interesting. Just goes to show you how much of the old language is preserved in modern Fârsi. I hear that's because Firdausi's Shahnama has such an immense influence on Fârsi?



~Wiz

[Lazul]

Id say Kurska and Thermopylae


and... gha!, need help, there was this Huge battles between the Mongols and the Poles during the mongol invasion of europe. It was more or less a devastating defeat for the poles since the mongols used their hit and run over and over without hardly loosing any men.

[The Wizard]

Legnica.

It wasn't that large -- 30000 Poles facing off against 20000 Mongols.



~Wiz

[Orda Khan]

Legnica.

It wasn't that large -- 30000 Poles facing off against 20000 Mongols.

~Wiz

Hello Wiz,
I chose Kalka but Mohi and Legnica were also uppermost as they exemplify the strategical genious of Subedei. There has always been conflicting reports about army sizes and Legnica is one of these. 'Historia Tatarorum', has accounts written on the travels of Carpini and Benedict 1245 - 1247 and details taken directly from Mongols who had participated in the battle only a few years earlier. One section states that Batu divided his army on the Hungarian border and sent "10,000 warriors under his brother Orda against Poland". That amounts to only a single Tumen and not the two that are usually mentioned. If we assume that this Tumen was complete at this point, we must still consider Mongol losses as they campaigned through Poland. It has been suggested that the Mongol army at Legnica was more probably about 8,000. Modern theories have estimated Henry's army to be a similar size.
Whether this is true or not we will never know but we do have the overall campaign strategy and this foray into Poland was an utterly tremendous distraction from the main event.

But do remember that by the time Aïn Jalut took place, Hulagu had already withdrawn his main forces from Syria. What Baibars faced was nothing but a token force left behind by Hulagu, perhaps in the hope that the Mamluks would be too scared of the Mongols' reputation to do anything against them. 120000 men versus only 25000, of which only 15000 were Mongols.

The two armies were about even though the Mamluks were professional Turkish cavalry and understood the Mongol style of warfare.

Two very different accounts of the same battle. It depends where you glean your source from and even then we cannot be sure of actual facts.

The facts that we do know about Ain Jalut are that Hulegu had indeed withdrawn his extended forces to security in light of recent developments within the ruling house of the Mongols. He had the Golden Horde threatening in the West, Qaidu threatened his rear and civil war between Qubilai and Ariq boke in the East. Due to the allegiance between Berke and the Mamluks, some Princes of the White Horde present in Hulegus army, had been executed which only added to his problems.
Kit Buqa was left behind with a nominal force, very few of his men were Mongols, the majority were recent Armenian and Georgian conscripts and he was forced to put down a rebellion in Damascus which allowed Kutuz time to negotiate safe passage through Christian territory. This again was due to the treachery of the Christian forces who could not make up their minds who to trust. During this time the Mamluk numbers were reinforced by Golden Horde warriors and various Moslem fugitives from the recent rebellion. It is fair to say that Kit Buqa was completely outnumbered.
The battle was not fought in the traditional Mongol fashion, possibly because he knew these tactics would not work. Perhaps he was hoping that Mongol terror would be enough. Whatever the case, Kit Buqa charged the Mamluk vanguard and broke it and the Mongols continued to give chase down the valley into the Mamluk main force. It has been suggested this was a feigned retreat and the Mongols fell for their own trick but I doubt this as Kit Buqa was a very experienced Commander. The Mongol front line continued and crushed the Mamluk vanguard, the rest swung right and bore down on the Mamluk left flank which crumbled. Kutuz desperately regained his flank with men from his right and eventually the Mamluk position either side of the Mongols was achieved. A last massed charge won the day for the Mamluk army.

Even though this was only a minor achievment militarily, it had lasting effect on the area. However the political turmoil of the Mongol Royal House also played a large part in the lack of return of Mongol Tumens to both Syria and Europe

.......Orda

[Innocentius]

Necro-post but what the heck:

Battle of Tours, 732 - I think we all know the story being this one...

Battle of Hastings, 1066 - Same as above.

Battle of Hattin/Horns of hattin, 1187 - The Crusaders got rather owned, so to speak.

Battle of Lena, 1208 - Probably completely unknown to all non-Swedes, but it was a pretty decisive battle in (pre)Swedish history. A large (the number is uncertain, medieval soruces claim 12 000 but 2000 is a more likely figure) Danish force invaded [what would soon become] Sweden and were beaten. How this was done is not known though.

Battle of Lake Peipus, 1242 - Another famous battle. Crusaders getting owned again.

Battle of Halidon Hill, 1333 - Pretty complete English victory against the Scots. One of the first major victories of the longbow.

Batle of Crécy, 1346 - Simply deserves to be mentioned. Somewhat upsized though, and it seems to be the general impression that this was the first use of the longbow in medieval warfare...

Battle of Verneuil, 1424 - Often forgotten in favour for Agincourt and Crécy. "The second Agincourt".

Battle of Towton, 1461 - Bloodiest battle on English soil. Perfect setting in time and place for a battle as well.

Battle of Nördlingen, 1634 - The first major Swedish defeat in The 30 Year's War. A turnpoint for the war.

Battle of Narva, 1700 - A pretty complete Swedish victory against the Russians. One of my favourite battle when it comes to manouvering and strategies, second only to the

Battle of Holowczyn, 1708 - A "decent" Swedish victory against far superior numbers.

Battle of Poltava, 1709 - Total and utter Swedish defeat. 'Nuff said.

Battle of the Somme, 1916 - Another famous battle, I think you already know most about it.

Battle of the Bulge, 1944-1945 - How can you not be interested in this battle after seing Band of Brothers?

[Conradus]

One of my alltime favourites has always been the Battle of the Catalonian Fields. Almost a rigor mortis of the WRE-military and on the other side Attila who -if omens and stories are to be believed- went into battle just to kill aetius, knowing he'd lose.

[Reenk Roink]

Battle of Tours, 732 - I think we all know the story being this one...

I don't understand why this battle gets so much mention and the seige of Constantinople in 717 is ignored...

[edyzmedieval]

One of my favourites is the Battle of Rovine (Mircea The Old, Voievode of Wallachia against the Turks).....The Romanians seriously outnumbered at outmatched....It was like less than 20.000 Romanians against more than 60.000-70.000 turkish Sipahis and Jannisaries....Great battle....

Also, from ancient times, Thermopylae, Salamina....

Medieval times I would select Constantinople, Agincourt, Tannenberg , Marienburg

Modern times: Kursk, El Alamein , Malta , Midway........

[Dâriûsh]

Interesting. Just goes to show you how much of the old language is preserved in modern Fârsi. I hear that's because Firdausi's Shahnama has such an immense influence on Fârsi?

The Shahnameh is very important to Fârsi. Alas, I lack the necessary insight into western literature to make a suitable comparison.



I know that this is off-topic, and for that I apologize.

[tibilicus]

Malta, Turks tried to take Malta but left for no reson at all right? Or am i wrong?