RTR - Removing the Britons?

[Vortygern]

the rtr mod has totally lost me as a fan. The 5.4 version was good, but in their new release they have decided to remove the britons. As if removing the britons wasn't enough, one of their modders proceeds to explain how some cultures are more historically significant than others, as if he's a archaelogist or history professor. Quite infuriating actually to read something like that, the rtr people seem to be pretty heavy handed and now culturally biased. Ick,.. it's just a game...

[Simetrical]

As if removing the britons wasn't enough, one of their modders proceeds to explain how some cultures are more historically significant than others, as if he's a archaelogist or history professor. Quite infuriating actually to read something like that, the rtr people seem to be pretty heavy handed and now culturally biased.

The Britons did not do anything whatsoever of note in the time period of 280-1 BCE. They never even attempted to expand, or even to start wars. Sure, they traded, they resisted invasions, but that can be represented well enough by rebels. You really don't need to be a history professor to figure this stuff out.

Anyway, this is totally off-topic.

-Simetrical

[Vortygern]

The Britons did not do anything whatsoever of note in the time period of 280-1 BCE. They never even attempted to expand, or even to start wars. Sure, they traded, they resisted invasions, but that can be represented well enough by rebels. You really don't need to be a history professor to figure this stuff out.

Anyway, this is totally off-topic.

-Simetrical

Lol, why should something like whether or not your on topic bother one of the brilliant, infallible, incredibly wise and all knowing members of the illustrious RTR team?

[TheJian]

Well I think they do good work I hate the name its something that the community should say about a mod not the makers anyway............Vortygern that’s the thing about History people come at it from their own perception( or book they read) we all do this…Is this History No its “His Story” No matter if your white, black, red, yellow, Christian, Jew or Muslim …I always thought I understood what happen to the Native Americans till I examine Dee Brown's Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee or Chancellor Williams book The Destruction Of Black Civilization and many others… You have a small percent of the world interrupting the History of the world….. (TV is very powerful and school books)Even the History of Chain is diff coming from an Asian person ….Look still at the so called Boxer Rebellion like it’s a rebellion because you don’t want drugs…lol. The point is you really cant tell other what is true History if your not coming from a world view and not culture point of view…..I am not saying who is wrong or right I don’t have they right…but if you feel that way give him some info…Its never about the Mod its about changing peoples point of view from culture to world view….IF I did not play games or Mod because people got history (His Story right) wrong I could never play any games because most people think Africa was backwards when If you really read (try They Came Before Columbus by IVAN VAN SERTIMA) you would have a diff outlook at life well perhaps not but that’s not the point…..I never define a people by war most people did not have to leave there own land to find resources….Thus no need to subjugate other… And You really don't need to be a history professor to figure this stuff out…

[Myrddraal]

Lol, why should something like whether or not your on topic bother one of the brilliant, infallible, incredibly wise and all knowing members of the illustrious RTR team?

Vortygern, please keep your critism constructive, don't just start flaming other mods pls. Thx.

[Vortygern]

I totally agree with you Jian, that's why I declined to argue the point. Most of history, especially classical and pre-classical is comprised of various levels of arguements.

The thing is, the modders of rtr are doing exactly what your talking about. They are totally choosing to relegate one civilization (one of the core civilizations of the game) to a back water and replacing it with other civilizations that they arbitrarilly choose.

I know it's their mod, and they can do whatever they want. Just as they have that right, I have the right to call them on it and criticize what I feel is a very poor choice.

I guess my biggest point is that if they are choosing to ditch core factions from the game in such a heavy handed manner, what else are they doing?

I hope you don't feel that this is unconstructive criticism Myrddrall. It's the best I can do without getting bogged down in an endless debate about what civilization is more historically significant. My view is that the core civs of RTW should have been left alone minus the extraneous roman civilizations.

Well I think they do good work I hate the name its something that the community should say about a mod not the makers anyway............Vortygern that’s the thing about History people come at it from their own perception( or book they read) we all do this…Is this History No its “His Story” No matter if your white, black, red, yellow, Christian, Jew or Muslim …I always thought I understood what happen to the Native Americans till I examine Dee Brown's Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee or Chancellor Williams book The Destruction Of Black Civilization and many others… You have a small percent of the world interrupting the History of the world….. (TV is very powerful and school books)Even the History of Chain is diff coming from an Asian person ….Look still at the so called Boxer Rebellion like it’s a rebellion because you don’t want drugs…lol. The point is you really cant tell other what is true History if your not coming from a world view and not culture point of view…..I am not saying who is wrong or right I don’t have they right…but if you feel that way give him some info…Its never about the Mod its about changing peoples point of view from culture to world view….IF I did not play games or Mod because people got history (His Story right) wrong I could never play any games because most people think Africa was backwards when If you really read (try They Came Before Columbus by IVAN VAN SERTIMA) you would have a diff outlook at life well perhaps not but that’s not the point…..I never define a people by war most people did not have to leave there own land to find resources….Thus no need to subjugate other… And You really don't need to be a history professor to figure this stuff out…

[Simetrical]

I never define a people by war most people did not have to leave there own land to find resources…

True, but when it comes to matters not pertaining to war, rebels will serve just as well as a faction. We're in the process of removing all militarily insignificant factions from the game.

I guess my biggest point is that if they are choosing to ditch core factions from the game in such a heavy handed manner, what else are they doing?

Otherwise attempting to make the game realistic?

I hope you don't feel that this is unconstructive criticism Myrddrall.

It's not, except for parts like accusing us of being arbitrary and then completely ignoring any attempt by me to explain our position. This whole discussion may be a little off-topic, however.

It's the best I can do without getting bogged down in an endless debate about what civilization is more historically significant.

Well, we would be willing to get into such a debate. I suppose it's good that it's us and not you who are making the mod that focuses on history.

My view is that the core civs of RTW should have been left alone minus the extraneous roman civilizations.

Why, precisely, should the original set of factions be inviolate?

-Simetrical

[TheJian]

Well you guys are both right.....Each is just coming from a different point of view, its like looking at a coin, each looks at his side one will see heads another will see tails but in reality both makeup the coin....


I think its a very good Mod from what other have said, and a lot of work has gone into it........I will still try it soon, but when we get the ex pack, then we will really see what the modders can come up with....


As to off-topic how in the world can it be you guys are talking about Best Mod....I for one as a newb to mods like to see this kind of dialogue...Helps me see if I even want to try a mod or not…..and to be real I would have never given this mod opportunity if not for Vortygern words I want to see what he is talking about.....


Debate about what civilization is more historically significant would be endless till we can understand and acknowledge the possibility that other views have validity....

"All Faith is false all faith is true. Truth is the shattered mirrors strewn In myriad bits; While each believes his little bit the whole to own." From The kasidah of Haji Abu el-Yezdi


I have been playing SPQR 3.0 with the Genetics, Aging, Family, and Health Mod (GAFHMod0.9b) by Malrubius…. Well all I find myself doing is looking at my characters to see what will happen with the sons…LOL Im looking into making an Excel sheet to keep up with them…..So whatever mod you use try the GAFHMo add-on its cool.

[Vortygern]

True, but when it comes to matters not pertaining to war, rebels will serve just as well as a faction. We're in the process of removing all militarily insignificant factions from the game. Otherwise attempting to make the game realistic?
It's not, except for parts like accusing us of being arbitrary and then completely ignoring any attempt by me to explain our position. This whole discussion may be a little off-topic, however.
Well, we would be willing to get into such a debate. I suppose it's good that it's us and not you who are making the mod that focuses on history.
Why, precisely, should the original set of factions be inviolate?

-Simetrical

I'm not very good at this quoting thing, but fine, I will address your points in a few lines. First I want to say that the reason why this debate may actually be on topic is because there are so few finished mods to choose from. So discussing the shortcomings, or design issues with one mod to me seems appropiate here as we try and determine the best mod available.

So, here goes.

"True, but when it comes to matters not pertaining to war, rebels will serve just as well as a faction. We're in the process of removing all militarily insignificant factions from the game"

So, your intent is to replace civilizations that got steamrolled with other civilizations that got steamrolled? How is this not arbitrary?

"It's not, except for parts like accusing us of being arbitrary and then completely ignoring any attempt by me to explain our position. This whole discussion may be a little off-topic, however."

I feel that to discuss the nature or significance of one civilization in relation to another is pointless, racist, and even offensive. Jian has very astutely pointed out why such a discussion is to be avoided, littered with bias, it is a landscape of misconception and conceit.

"Well, we would be willing to get into such a debate. I suppose it's good that it's us and not you who are making the mod that focuses on history."

I don't think that does you any credit, and it is definitely *NOT* a good arguement when trying to defend yourself from the accusation of being arbitrary or heavy handed.

"Otherwise attempting to make the game realistic?"

The game is not about what happened. It is about what could of have happened, it is about what might have been. This is a problem for a lot of history sim modders. Nobody wants a history book, we want to rewrite the book ourselves.

"Why, precisely, should the original set of factions be inviolate?"

Because maybe people enjoyed playing them? I discount and do not accept your reasoning for replacing one minor faction with another. Therefore you have chosen to remove a faction that a lot of people liked to replace it with a faction of your own arbitrary choosing.

I realize it is your mod, and you can do whatever you want. I have stated that and I agree to respect your right to take the mod in whatever direction you choose. This thread is about the best mod out there and I am simply explaining why I think RTR is about to become the WORST mod.

[Vortygern]

Hmm, it's lame that you can't edit. I thought of another point.

Have you guys even considered how boring the slog through northern europe will be without Briton? That just leaves Gaul and Germany. Frankly one type of army can effectively deal with both. The fact that Briton uses some different unit types (chariots) forced the player to use different combinations of troop in that region. Briton was an excellent addition to the northern european line up in the game. There is already plenty of balkan and eurasian civilizations to confront. You just turned northern europe into a boring and much easier to conquer territory.

[Myrddraal]

This has gone completely off topic, so I've split it. Gentlemen please keep this discussion calm, Vortygern there is agression in lots of your posts, and Simetrical you seem to be reacting to it. Just pointing it out to you in case you hadn't noticed

Vortygern, you will be able to edit when you become a member, after a certain post count.

[Simetrical]

So, your intent is to replace civilizations that got steamrolled with other civilizations that got steamrolled? How is this not arbitrary?

Because while neither Illyria nor Britain got steamrolled, precisely, Illyria was more militarily significant. Britain just sat around and did nothing whatsoever militarily for most of RTR's timeframe, until it got invaded, when it still did nothing whatsoever except fight back. Illyria actually got into wars.

I feel that to discuss the nature or significance of one civilization in relation to another is pointless, racist, and even offensive.

Let me just clarify: you think it's racist to say something like "the Romans had more influence on Eurasian politics in 280-1 BCE than the Britons did"?

The game is not about what happened. It is about what could of have happened, it is about what might have been. This is a problem for a lot of history sim modders. Nobody wants a history book, we want to rewrite the book ourselves.

This is, I will grant, more of a philosophical decision than an objective reality-based one. In theory, there's no reason the Iberians couldn't have suddenly decided to build Roman-style aqueducts and adopt the Macedonian phalanx as their method of warfare. But a game that doesn't differentiate between the various factions and allows each one to freely choose its path is, while not inherently boring, not something that the RTW engine is suited for, and not something that many RTW fans would enjoy.

Therefore, we've chosen to basically restrict certain aspects of the game to what did historically happen rather than what could have historically happened. You as the player are allowed to attack anyone you choose in direct contravention of history, as well as making various minor tactical choices that history doesn't bother to record, but you aren't able to do things like decide your faction's troop list.

Our ideal is that, barring player interference, the course of the game should tend to play out as much like the course of history did as possible, albeit of course with substantial randomness. Is this the only way to make a realism mod? No, I don't think so. But I do think it's the only real way to make a mod for RTW that RTW fans will want to play.

Because maybe people enjoyed playing them?

You think that people will automatically dislike playing as the Illyrians or Greco-Bactrians? You will, perhaps, but you're one of few. Most people are willing to play any one of a variety of factions, even if they have favorites.

I discount and do not accept your reasoning for replacing one minor faction with another. Therefore you have chosen to remove a faction that a lot of people liked to replace it with a faction of your own arbitrary choosing.

What people like doesn't matter to us. What matters to us is our own vision of the game. If you don't like it, there are plenty of other mods for you to play. And since RTR has by an overwhelming margin the largest fan base of any substantial RTW modification, I'm not too concerned regardless.

-Simetrical

[skeletor]

Vortygern!

- I think you should visit the TWcenter RTR forum and read some of the discussions about this, and other topics. There is a hole comunity comming with ideas, complains, historical info, and poll's on almost every subject (some topics have reached over 1000 post's), and the RTR team always respond and listen to the community.

Some of the changes might seem obscure at first, but if you follow the debates (and yes, the removal of the brits have been discussed in and out), they will make more sense.. Also note that there is allot of limitations in the hardcoding of the game, like faction limit, and you can't really blame the RTR team for that. Go flame CA. (some of the problems with the brits, was that they (as AI) invaded, and crushed the germans completely in most campaigns, and thats historically way off!! You will still fight large numbers of unique brit units if you try to invade the island, so they are not gone...

If you really want to play as the brits, you could always play vanilla RTW, or try modding them back in yourself. (The RTR team have opened allot of doors, so it's not that hard if you try, and there is probably some modders that will patch them back once 6.0 get's out.)

I'm really looking forward to playing as the Illyrians and Bactrians, for a change.

-Skel-

[Myrddraal]

read some of the discussions about this, and other topics. There is a hole comunity comming with ideas, complains, historical info, and poll's on almost every subject (some topics have reached over 1000 post's), and the RTR team always respond and listen to the community.

Guess whats happening here

[Ginger]

Ive got to say well done to the rtr team. I always felt that there were too many barbarian tribes in vanilla and one of the daftest was the Brritons. I am british (scottish to be exact) buts still recognise that the britons did relatively little in this time period. In fact to have a nation of "britons" at 280 bc is ludicrous, but unavoidable given the constraints of the game engine. As i understand it the britons remained relatively marginal to the roman emprire right through its history, and certainly did very little bar trade prior to the roman invasion. As such i think its much better to have more aggressive groups than the britons in RTR.

Incidentally id like to see the kingdom controlled by mithradates; is that illyria or something else (just finished reading the conn igulden books on ceaser and was quite taken by mithradates... i digress)

Cheers

[caesar44]

the name of the mod is total realism so ...
if history "is saying" that the britons never played an important role in the years 280 bce to 1 or 40 ce what's that got to do with anything , these are the simple facts and the mod is trying to stick with it
racism shmacism white black pink or yellow
if ilyria was a major actor in the 3 century bce (ant it was) so the moders are right to prefer her on the britons and there is nothing to do - that is realism !!!

[Simetrical]

Incidentally id like to see the kingdom controlled by mithradates; is that illyria or something else (just finished reading the conn igulden books on ceaser and was quite taken by mithradates... i digress)

Mithridates (or Mithradates) was the name of several rulers of Pontus and several of Parthia, as well as the name of a number of other people in history. The one you're probably thinking of is Mithridates VI of Pontus, who was ultimately defeated by Pompey in the Third Mithridatic War.

-Simetrical

[Tigranes]

You realize that in RTR, they made the very far east have a couple of large rebel armies with elephants?

For this release, they could give the "Brythionic Rebels" chariots, and the regular assortment of troops that Britons would build. Sure, you can't play as them, but at least they exist, if under a different name.

[Ginger]

@ simetrical-

Thats the one I was thinking of. I never realised it was pontus, hmm Ill need to give them a go. Cheers!

[Tykell]

Any mod that pretty much kills the enemy AI, making them ALWAYS stationary in defense, that don't do anything until attacked (They don't even respond if you try to flank them!) is terrible in my book.

[Simetrical]

What mod does this? The behavior you're describing exists in vanilla, certainly.

-Simetrical

[Tykell]

What mod does this? The behavior you're describing exists in vanilla, certainly.

-Simetrical

RTR

[Scorpion]

RTR

Ah, so RTR removes all the challenge and the AI of all nations, adding nothing?

I see. Well, I guess you´re right, then - RTR must be terrible! /sarcasm


Basically, by removing one of the original people in the game that have no historical reason of being there, and adding a plethora of new, meaningful nations (among other things), RTR has become terrible?

Just because they tampered with the original game?
If that´s the case, I would advise you to steer clear of any of the future "big mods".

Think about Warhammer or Fourth Age - how terrible they must be, after all, they have removed all the original nations of RTR!

[Tykell]

I don't care about any of the new nations, or units they put in.

When I go to battle against Greek Hoplites, and flank them with Triarii, I expect them to turn around and face the threat, or at least make some effort to re-position their army.

Ok, so maybe I snuck past them. I attack the hoplite's flanks, and from the start until the hoplites rout, guess what, NONE OF THE OTHER HOPLITES MADE ANY ATTEMPT TO SUPPORT THEIR ALLIES IN BATTLE. They just sat there like nothing happened.

What the **** is the point of historically accurate units and nations when the AI doesn't even fight correctly? I never ran into this in vanilla.

Edit by Myrddraal: Language

[Myrddraal]

Tykell, that doesn't sound like a RTR bug, that sounds like a general bug. This is an unofficial warning to you Tykell, this is not a place to slag off other bugs. This forum is for discussion and constructive critisism. Read this thread
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=47656

[Tykell]

Tykell, that doesn't sound like a RTR bug, that sounds like a general bug. This is an unofficial warning to you Tykell, this is not a place to slag off other bugs. This forum is for discussion and constructive critisism. Read this thread
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=47656

You can warn me all you want, the point's still got across.

[Myrddraal]

Check ur PMs Tykell

[Bwian]

The only 'Point' you have got across, Tykell, is that you do not do a very good job of bug reporting.

If you don't like the mod...remove it. Then remove yourself from discussions on it. Otherwise...you might actually try helping out.

Personally speaking, I have seen lots of poor defensive reactions by AI, and not in mods either. Might be worth your while to re-phrase your question in a more grown up manner.... allow me to help you along here....

"I am having some issue with the RTR AI. When fighting against a Greek Hoplite phalanx, I was able to outflank it with no defensive reaction at all. They were easily routed, with no troops turning to face to properly defend themselves. I was not experinecing this problem with the stock game.
1) Has the mod changed the AI for these formations?
2) Can it be improved to make the Greeks behave in a logical and histoirical manner?
I am using RTR release XXX patched onto an unmodified RTW 1.2 install. Battle was a Custom Battle ( units used listed )"

see... THAT makes your pooint, passes information likely to help the RTR pin down the issue, and odesn't sound like a petulant child who hasn't got exactly what he wanted...

After all.... you clearly are an expert on RTW , and I am REALLY looking forward to your mod.....I assume you DO intend to do better than RTR....

[Tykell]

You don't need to be a modder to play a game for 6 months and suddenly have this start happening when you install RTR. Trust me, I flanked Hoplites countless times in vanilla. They never just sat there.

[Wishazu]

well if you study history, and in particular take a look at the history of greek warfare you will find than once a phalanx is flanked that was usually the end, its strength was in showing a united strong front and either holding this formation to receive the enemy or advance, once a phalanx gets broken up its doomed, the way greek hoplites fight in vanilla is completely histoically wrong, rtr even forms all your phalanx units into a single phalanx block at the start of deployment, btw cheers for that rtr.