RTR - Removing the Britons?

[Vortygern]

True, but when it comes to matters not pertaining to war, rebels will serve just as well as a faction. We're in the process of removing all militarily insignificant factions from the game. Otherwise attempting to make the game realistic?
It's not, except for parts like accusing us of being arbitrary and then completely ignoring any attempt by me to explain our position. This whole discussion may be a little off-topic, however.
Well, we would be willing to get into such a debate. I suppose it's good that it's us and not you who are making the mod that focuses on history.
Why, precisely, should the original set of factions be inviolate?

-Simetrical

I'm not very good at this quoting thing, but fine, I will address your points in a few lines. First I want to say that the reason why this debate may actually be on topic is because there are so few finished mods to choose from. So discussing the shortcomings, or design issues with one mod to me seems appropiate here as we try and determine the best mod available.

So, here goes.

"True, but when it comes to matters not pertaining to war, rebels will serve just as well as a faction. We're in the process of removing all militarily insignificant factions from the game"

So, your intent is to replace civilizations that got steamrolled with other civilizations that got steamrolled? How is this not arbitrary?

"It's not, except for parts like accusing us of being arbitrary and then completely ignoring any attempt by me to explain our position. This whole discussion may be a little off-topic, however."

I feel that to discuss the nature or significance of one civilization in relation to another is pointless, racist, and even offensive. Jian has very astutely pointed out why such a discussion is to be avoided, littered with bias, it is a landscape of misconception and conceit.

"Well, we would be willing to get into such a debate. I suppose it's good that it's us and not you who are making the mod that focuses on history."

I don't think that does you any credit, and it is definitely *NOT* a good arguement when trying to defend yourself from the accusation of being arbitrary or heavy handed.

"Otherwise attempting to make the game realistic?"

The game is not about what happened. It is about what could of have happened, it is about what might have been. This is a problem for a lot of history sim modders. Nobody wants a history book, we want to rewrite the book ourselves.

"Why, precisely, should the original set of factions be inviolate?"

Because maybe people enjoyed playing them? I discount and do not accept your reasoning for replacing one minor faction with another. Therefore you have chosen to remove a faction that a lot of people liked to replace it with a faction of your own arbitrary choosing.

I realize it is your mod, and you can do whatever you want. I have stated that and I agree to respect your right to take the mod in whatever direction you choose. This thread is about the best mod out there and I am simply explaining why I think RTR is about to become the WORST mod.

[Vortygern]

Hmm, it's lame that you can't edit. I thought of another point.

Have you guys even considered how boring the slog through northern europe will be without Briton? That just leaves Gaul and Germany. Frankly one type of army can effectively deal with both. The fact that Briton uses some different unit types (chariots) forced the player to use different combinations of troop in that region. Briton was an excellent addition to the northern european line up in the game. There is already plenty of balkan and eurasian civilizations to confront. You just turned northern europe into a boring and much easier to conquer territory.

[Myrddraal]

This has gone completely off topic, so I've split it. Gentlemen please keep this discussion calm, Vortygern there is agression in lots of your posts, and Simetrical you seem to be reacting to it. Just pointing it out to you in case you hadn't noticed

Vortygern, you will be able to edit when you become a member, after a certain post count.

[Simetrical]

So, your intent is to replace civilizations that got steamrolled with other civilizations that got steamrolled? How is this not arbitrary?

Because while neither Illyria nor Britain got steamrolled, precisely, Illyria was more militarily significant. Britain just sat around and did nothing whatsoever militarily for most of RTR's timeframe, until it got invaded, when it still did nothing whatsoever except fight back. Illyria actually got into wars.

I feel that to discuss the nature or significance of one civilization in relation to another is pointless, racist, and even offensive.

Let me just clarify: you think it's racist to say something like "the Romans had more influence on Eurasian politics in 280-1 BCE than the Britons did"?

The game is not about what happened. It is about what could of have happened, it is about what might have been. This is a problem for a lot of history sim modders. Nobody wants a history book, we want to rewrite the book ourselves.

This is, I will grant, more of a philosophical decision than an objective reality-based one. In theory, there's no reason the Iberians couldn't have suddenly decided to build Roman-style aqueducts and adopt the Macedonian phalanx as their method of warfare. But a game that doesn't differentiate between the various factions and allows each one to freely choose its path is, while not inherently boring, not something that the RTW engine is suited for, and not something that many RTW fans would enjoy.

Therefore, we've chosen to basically restrict certain aspects of the game to what did historically happen rather than what could have historically happened. You as the player are allowed to attack anyone you choose in direct contravention of history, as well as making various minor tactical choices that history doesn't bother to record, but you aren't able to do things like decide your faction's troop list.

Our ideal is that, barring player interference, the course of the game should tend to play out as much like the course of history did as possible, albeit of course with substantial randomness. Is this the only way to make a realism mod? No, I don't think so. But I do think it's the only real way to make a mod for RTW that RTW fans will want to play.

Because maybe people enjoyed playing them?

You think that people will automatically dislike playing as the Illyrians or Greco-Bactrians? You will, perhaps, but you're one of few. Most people are willing to play any one of a variety of factions, even if they have favorites.

I discount and do not accept your reasoning for replacing one minor faction with another. Therefore you have chosen to remove a faction that a lot of people liked to replace it with a faction of your own arbitrary choosing.

What people like doesn't matter to us. What matters to us is our own vision of the game. If you don't like it, there are plenty of other mods for you to play. And since RTR has by an overwhelming margin the largest fan base of any substantial RTW modification, I'm not too concerned regardless.

-Simetrical

[skeletor]

Vortygern!

- I think you should visit the TWcenter RTR forum and read some of the discussions about this, and other topics. There is a hole comunity comming with ideas, complains, historical info, and poll's on almost every subject (some topics have reached over 1000 post's), and the RTR team always respond and listen to the community.

Some of the changes might seem obscure at first, but if you follow the debates (and yes, the removal of the brits have been discussed in and out), they will make more sense.. Also note that there is allot of limitations in the hardcoding of the game, like faction limit, and you can't really blame the RTR team for that. Go flame CA. (some of the problems with the brits, was that they (as AI) invaded, and crushed the germans completely in most campaigns, and thats historically way off!! You will still fight large numbers of unique brit units if you try to invade the island, so they are not gone...

If you really want to play as the brits, you could always play vanilla RTW, or try modding them back in yourself. (The RTR team have opened allot of doors, so it's not that hard if you try, and there is probably some modders that will patch them back once 6.0 get's out.)

I'm really looking forward to playing as the Illyrians and Bactrians, for a change.

-Skel-

[Myrddraal]

read some of the discussions about this, and other topics. There is a hole comunity comming with ideas, complains, historical info, and poll's on almost every subject (some topics have reached over 1000 post's), and the RTR team always respond and listen to the community.

Guess whats happening here

[Ginger]

Ive got to say well done to the rtr team. I always felt that there were too many barbarian tribes in vanilla and one of the daftest was the Brritons. I am british (scottish to be exact) buts still recognise that the britons did relatively little in this time period. In fact to have a nation of "britons" at 280 bc is ludicrous, but unavoidable given the constraints of the game engine. As i understand it the britons remained relatively marginal to the roman emprire right through its history, and certainly did very little bar trade prior to the roman invasion. As such i think its much better to have more aggressive groups than the britons in RTR.

Incidentally id like to see the kingdom controlled by mithradates; is that illyria or something else (just finished reading the conn igulden books on ceaser and was quite taken by mithradates... i digress)

Cheers

[caesar44]

the name of the mod is total realism so ...
if history "is saying" that the britons never played an important role in the years 280 bce to 1 or 40 ce what's that got to do with anything , these are the simple facts and the mod is trying to stick with it
racism shmacism white black pink or yellow
if ilyria was a major actor in the 3 century bce (ant it was) so the moders are right to prefer her on the britons and there is nothing to do - that is realism !!!