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Thread: Europe warns Iran... well sort of...

  1. #61
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europe warns Iran... well sort of...

    Possibly OT but I am really not sure the world is a more dangerous place if Iran has a nuclear weapon or two.
    Yes their a bunch of good old boys. What they hay let them have thier fun. Mybe we should just give away some of our excess nukes to countries who cannot affird to develope their own and make eveyone equal.

    For what its worth I would deal with (1) by announcing a doctine of total nuclear annihilation of any country that actually uses a nuke and to hell with war crimes, and (2) by stopping invading people.
    So how are you going to stop the US from using a nuke start WW3? How would this stop war crimes or nations invading eachother?

    Think about it. America can't seriously be challenged in conventional forces, but a couple of warheads are the modern equivalent of HMS Dreadnaught: at a stroke the preponderance of other forces is rendered irrelevant. No wonder everyone wants them.
    Do you think there would be even an ant alive in Iran if they attacked the US with nukes?
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  2. #62
    Senior Member Senior Member English assassin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europe warns Iran... well sort of...

    Yes their a bunch of good old boys. What they hay let them have thier fun. Mybe we should just give away some of our excess nukes to countries who cannot affird to develope their own and make eveyone equal
    Well that might be a step too far and besides Isreal needs them (oops, silly me, that was France wasn't it) but what I am asking you to consider is why they think they need the nukes and whether they are REALLY any sort of threat to the US, or indeed anyone much else. Nukes in the hands of stable state don't much worry me. Pakistani nukes worry me a fair bit.

    So how are you going to stop the US from using a nuke start WW3? How would this stop war crimes or nations invading eachother?
    I'm not actually too worried about the USA going nuclear unilaterally, unless you know something I don't. But in principle, yes.

    Do you think there would be even an ant alive in Iran if they attacked the US with nukes?
    Hurrah, thats one convert to the Assassin doctrine of total annihiliation already. And I reckon Dev Dave's in the bag for this one too. And you know I think the Iranians know this too.
    "The only thing I've gotten out of this thread is that Navaros is claiming that Satan gave Man meat. Awesome." Gorebag

  3. #63

    Default Re: Europe warns Iran... well sort of...

    You faiied to answer it. You told me why the US wanted it to have nuclear power back in the 50s.
    No your question was why a country with all that oil wants Nuclear power ?
    That was your question was it not ? Besides which the plan was progressive planning for future needs as far as the mid '90s .
    I do. The reality is this aint the 50s .
    Yes they needed less electricity generation in the 50s therfore the need is now much greater , which is why the development plan spanned decades .
    Iran wasnt controlled by Islamic fundementalists in the 50s.
    Whats that got to do with the price of cheese ?
    Did they cancel it ? Did Russia refuse to provide it?
    If not then again why do they need to build this plant.
    Keep up Gawain , the fuel deal was for Russia to provide Nuclear fuel for the reactors , no they havn't cancelled it , no they havn't refused to provide it , they only recently signed it

  4. #64
    Scruffy Looking Nerf Herder Member Steppe Merc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europe warns Iran... well sort of...

    Any and all countries that are still making nukes is stupid. They have no true military purpose that I'm aware of, is mad expensive that could be spent on real military things (or god forbid, improving the people of that country's lives), and to try and play the game of chicken that nukes are is nuts. Admittedly, it's gone down since USSR disbanded, but isn't the whole concept of nukes is that if I have enough, everyone will be too scared to attack me with their own? Or am I missing something?
    I have no problem with the US getting pissed at Iran for trying to make nukes. Of course, we ought to get rid of our own, but it is never bad to discourage further nuke devolpment made by anyone.
    Unless of course, Iran wants to use nuclear power to actually power something, and try and save oil.

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  5. #65
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europe warns Iran... well sort of...

    Nukes in the hands of stable state don't much worry me.
    Iran is a stable state?

    No your question was why a country with all that oil wants Nuclear power ?
    That was your question was it not ? Besides which the plan was progressive planning for future needs as far as the mid '90s .
    You showed a US plan to get more oil out of Iran in the 50s . It once more has no relevance to the issue at hand here. Its kind of funny that we didnt even go along with our own plans for nuclear power. Please discuss the matter as it applies today.

    Yes they needed less electricity generation in the 50s therfore the need is now much greater , which is why the development plan spanned decades .
    They can get this electricity far cheaper with oil burning plants. Its like the US importing wheat from Russia.

    Whats that got to do with the price of cheese ?
    We dont worry about our friends having nuclear power. Besides no where was it mentioned that Iran would build a plant to make fuel in this 1950s scenario you speak of.

    Keep up Gawain , the fuel deal was for Russia to provide Nuclear fuel for the reactors , no they havn't cancelled it , no they havn't refused to provide it , they only recently signed it
    Oh I shall you can bet on it. So they dont need the fuel plant after all. Thanks for proving my point.
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  6. #66

    Default Re: Europe warns Iran... well sort of...

    So they dont need the fuel plant after all. Thanks for proving my point.
    What point Gawain ? your question was about generating energy not Uranium enrichment . Or did you forget ?
    We dont worry about our friends having nuclear power.
    Yes we know , your government doesn't even push the issue with dictatorships who give nuclear technology to nasty people does it .

  7. #67
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europe warns Iran... well sort of...

    What point Gawain ? your question was about generating energy not Uranium enrichment . Or did you forget ?
    The point is the only reason they need this plant is for nukes. You never showed they had any need for nuclear power only a plan by the US to give the this power so that the US could get more energy from them. They had no need of it then and they have no need of it today.

    Yes we know , your government doesn't even push the issue with dictatorships who give nuclear technology to nasty people does it
    For instance? Man you are a great dancer
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  8. #68

    Default Re: Europe warns Iran... well sort of...

    For instance?
    Has your government had any luck with getting a cetain friendly dictatorship to give it access to Dr. Khan ? It has been requested many times by yours and other governments and other international bodies at the highest levels. But Mr. nice Dictator says NO .
    They had no need of it then and they have no need of it today.
    Really , so a program to let a country have 23 Nuclear power plants was completely unneccesary was it ?
    Maybe you could tell all the other countries in the world that generate electricity that way that they should stop as they don't really need it .

  9. #69
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europe warns Iran... well sort of...

    Really , so a program to let a country have 23 Nuclear power plants was completely unneccesary was it ?
    Economically yes it was. Again the Iranians only plan 6 or 7 not 23. They have no need for a plant to produce fuel. Stop stepping on my toes.
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  10. #70
    A Veteran Wargamer Member kiwitt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europe warns Iran... well sort of...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    Iran is a stable state?
    I think it is. It hasn't invaded another country since it's revolution. It had defended itself from a US supplied Iraq for nearly a decade.

    I concur that some of the initial participants would have been quite radical, but what revolution doesn't have it's radicals.

    The current goverment has not been overthrown in nearly 25 years. I would call that stable.
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  11. #71

    Default Re: Europe warns Iran... well sort of...

    Stop stepping on my toes.
    Learn to dance properly then
    Again the Iranians only plan 6 or 7 not 23.
    Would that have anything to do with advances in technology ?
    So do you have a problem with them having Nuclear energy plants , or is it just the Enrichment program you have a problem with ?
    They are two seperate issues , though the time limit the Russians have set for return of spent fuel under the recent deal does raise serious questions , which most countries are trying to address .

  12. #72
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europe warns Iran... well sort of...

    I think it is. It hasn't invaded another country since it's revolution. It had defended itself from a US supplied Iraq for nearly a decade.
    So then you wouldnt have had any problem selling Hitler nukes. Germany certainly was stable in 1936. Anfd the thought that they may provide terrorists with nujes isnt even in your playbook I suppose.

    The current goverment has not been overthrown in nearly 25 years. I would call that stable.
    I dont give it much longer.
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  13. #73
    A Veteran Wargamer Member kiwitt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europe warns Iran... well sort of...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    ...selling Hitler nukes.
    I don't think we need to bring him into this discussion about IRAN.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    I dont give it much longer.
    I think a few student protests do not make a country unstable. Look at South Korea, they had plenty and are still around. Can you please justify ?
    Last edited by kiwitt; 05-18-2005 at 01:09.
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  14. #74
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europe warns Iran... well sort of...

    Ok we should have sold them to Stalin then and shared all our technology with him. After all he was our ally was he not? By your criteria N Korea is a stable country. What you not taking into account is that the leaders of these nations are UNSTABLE.
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  15. #75
    A Veteran Wargamer Member kiwitt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europe warns Iran... well sort of...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    ... Stalin ... N Korea ...
    Again you are bringing other countries into the equation.

    I think Iran's leaders have been resolute in it's current policy and it's current program is aimed at generating power not pursuing nukes. This indicates stability.

    As I said previously, this is about "oil" denomination in US Dollars. Iran is planning to sell it's oil in Euro's in March 2006 and this rhetoric is just a "smokescreen" for trying to prevent this. The Euro is more stable than the US dollar currently, so moving to Euro will help it remain stable.
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  16. #76
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europe warns Iran... well sort of...

    I think Iran's leaders have been resolute in it's current policy and it's current program is aimed at generating power not pursuing nukes. This indicates stability.
    On what do you base this? BPs post that Irans minister of the interior says its against thewir religion? How does this indicate stability. Do you even know whats going on in Iran with the younger people?
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  17. #77
    A Veteran Wargamer Member kiwitt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europe warns Iran... well sort of...

    Basing a form of government on religion or god is unstable ? How ?
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  18. #78
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europe warns Iran... well sort of...

    Basing a form of government on religion or god is unstable ? How
    Once more and Ill try to type slowly so you understand me What is it that makes you so sure they only want it for nuclear power when Ive shown you it would be better for them economicly and certainly politically to use oil generators?
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  19. #79
    A Veteran Wargamer Member kiwitt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europe warns Iran... well sort of...

    Well burning "fossil fuels" is environmentally unfriendly and using nuclear power is "cleaner"

    from this article

    "In Paris last week, U.S. Ambassador Constance Morella told conferees that nuclear energy was "clean" and "reliable" and necessary in order for the world to have a "secure energy supply."

    Mohammad Saeidi, a vice president of the Atomic Energy Organization of Iran, delivered more or less the same message to the conferees.

    Oil and natural gas "are limited and belong to all subsequent generations" and "unrestrained use of this source of energy is not prudent," he said.

    Iran's goal, Saeidi added, is nothing less than "self-sufficiency in all aspects of the peaceful use of nuclear energy."

    So even the US supports the use of nuclear power. Iran is simply doing what the US supports
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  20. #80
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europe warns Iran... well sort of...

    Well burning "fossil fuels" is environmentally unfriendly and using nuclear power is "cleaner"
    Thats the funniest post ive ever seen here . Now Irans concerned with protecting the enviorment. Some one please pick me up off the floor.
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  21. #81
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europe warns Iran... well sort of...

    Well, in a roundabout way, it makes sense... They're sitting on one of the largest reserves of oil in the world, but they know as well as anyone it's not renewable. It would be in their best interest to see it's rate of consumption reduced.

    That being said, do any of you really believe Iran really looks at it this way? Let's come clean here... Iran wants a nuclear bomb. Either you're arguing they should have one, or you're arguing they shouldn't. Let's quit with all the clever parlor tricks, shall we?
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
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  22. #82
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europe warns Iran... well sort of...

    Well, in a roundabout way, it makes sense... They're sitting on one of the largest reserves of oil in the world, but they know as well as anyone it's not renewable. It would be in their best interest to see it's rate of consumption reduced.
    Come on how much enrgy does Iran use. It would be an insignificant amount of oil and as I said it would be cheaper to import either foriegn oil or nuclear fuel than to produce their own. You right its really about whether one believes they should be allowed to have nukes or not.
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  23. #83
    A Veteran Wargamer Member kiwitt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europe warns Iran... well sort of...

    I agree. A bit of a double standard (Selling polluting oil but pursuing cleaner Nuclear) But if countries doing double standards make you laugh, who am I to stop you. You'll never stop laughing.
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  24. #84
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europe warns Iran... well sort of...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    Come on how much enrgy does Iran use. It would be an insignificant amount of oil and as I said it would be cheaper to import either foriegn oil or nuclear fuel than to produce their own. You right its really about whether one believes they should be allowed to have nukes or not.
    I think it's pretty clear from my post that I believe neither Iran, nor their supporters in here look at it this way, but I am a big proponent of nuclear power (something I've always admired about the French) and will take my chance for shameless plugs were I can.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
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  25. #85
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europe warns Iran... well sort of...

    I agree. A bit of a double standard (Selling polluting oil but pursuing cleaner Nuclear) But if countries doing double standards make you laugh, who am I to stop you. You'll never stop laughing.
    Your obfuscating. Answer the question should they have nukes or not. I believe your answer is yes is it not?

    I think it's pretty clear from my post that I believe neither Iran, nor their supporters in here look at it this way,
    Yes you did. I was just pointing out the further absurdity of that position.

    but I am a big proponent of nuclear power (something I've always admired about the French) and will take my chance for shameless plugs were I can.
    Me too. It has always bothered me why we havent built more of these. Its costing us a foutune here on LI because they were building a plant and canceled it when it was almost done.

    ]]]]] ]]]]] SHOREHAM AND THE ENVIRONMENTALIST GUERILLAS [[[[[[[[
    By Sam McCracken 12/2/1988
    From National Review, 24 June 1988, p. 14

    [Kindly uploaded by Freeman 10602PANC]

    Late last month, the people of New York State got quite a
    bargain: the Shoreham nuclear-power plant on Long Island,
    complete and almost ready to run, a certified $5.3-billion value
    for only one dollar.
    If you wonder why the plant's owner, the Long Island Lighting
    Company (Lilco), was willing to sell at such a discount, the
    answer can be found in that phrase ``almost ready to run.'' All
    Shoreham lacks is an operating license, for which it has been
    waiting since its completion in 1984. It doesn't have an
    operating license because the State of New York and its creature,
    Suffolk County, have refused to take part in developing the
    emergency-evacuation plans that are a requisite to securing the
    license from the Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC). Earlier
    this year, it looked as if the NRC had finally lost patience with
    the persistent nonfeasance of the local authorities and would
    grant the license without their participation; but this relief
    came too late.
    Crushed by the burden of debt incurred in building a plant it
    could not use, Lilco settled for a deal under which, through a
    huge tax deduction, the federal taxpayers will ante up for part
    of its losses, and its customers will take care of the rest.
    Shoreham was in deep trouble long before the state and the
    county went on their sit-down strike. Its construction was a
    remarkable example of delay in an industry where delay is
    routine. It was ordered in 1967, but did not get a construction
    license until 1973. (By contrast, the Millstone Point II plant
    across Long Island Sound, ordered the same year as Shoreham, got
    its construction permit three years earlier.) Building Shoreham
    took 11 years. (Millstone Point II was completed in five.) And
    finally, building Shoreham, difficult as it was, was easier than
    operating it, which turned out to be impossible.
    Meanwhile in Connecticut, Millstone Point II cost $424 million
    and, by the time Shoreham was completed, had already paid for
    itself by fuel savings, which now total approximately $700
    million.
    Shoreham proved so expensive for a number of reasons,
    including management failures, leaden-handed regulation,
    environmentalist guerrilla tactics, and the malevolence of the
    local governments. All of these operated through delay. Delay
    ensured that the plant was constructed through a period of
    swinging inflation and swinging interest rates. (Shoreham has
    been costing Lilco upwards of $1 million a day in interest.) It
    cost $4.8 billion more than Millstone Point II.
    The final and fatal delay was the most unnecessary of all, the
    delay in the operating license. This delay was not imposed by
    the authorities responsible for ensuring the safety of
    nuclear-power plants -- those whose supervision has meant that
    not a single member of the public has been injured. They had not
    concluded that Shoreham was unsafe to operate. Rather, the local
    authorities had yielded to anti-nuclear hysteria.
    Nuclear power is held to a standard of safety which no other
    industrial technology could possibly meet. If the standards were
    generalized, tankers carrying liquefied natural gas could not
    enter our harbors. Semiconductor factories could not operate.
    And indeed, cola-fired power plants, most of which emit more
    radiation than is permitted for nuclear plants, could not
    operate.
    Nuclear power has been meeting this standard. But Governor
    Cuomo and his allies have devised something new: an infinitely
    high standard.
    Speaking some years ago about the financial prospects of
    Lilco, Governor Cuomo compassionately remarked, ``Let them take a
    bath. They're a private corporation.'' In the event, the bath
    will be taken by practically everyone but Lilco. It will be a
    crowded tub. Lilco's customers and the federal taxpayers will be
    there. So will all the inhabitants of Long Island, who will
    suffer from unreliable sources of electricity. And since some of
    the replacement electricity for Shoreham will be generated by
    burning more coal, which kills people through air pollution, some
    of the people in the tub will be not merely clean but dead.
    The nuclear industry is in a mess in America, especially
    compared to countries like France, where 55 percent of the
    electricity comes from the atom. Some of the blame must got to
    the regulators, who, among other things, have ensured that each
    plant must be custom-designed and custom-built, incorporating
    hundreds of design changes over the period of construction. And
    a great deal of blame must go to the anti-nuclear movement,
    which, unable to make nuclear power illegal, has done what it can
    to make it uneconomical. To this, the New York State and Suffolk
    County authorities have added civil disobedience by government
    itself.
    They already have emulators to the north: Michael Dukakis is
    trying to kill the Seabrook plant with his own sit-down strike
    over emergency planning. Most of the politicians involved in
    these tactics will have moved up or out when the bills come due,
    but their names should be remembered for the history books. [[[[[[[[
    Heres another link on the topic

    LINK

    And heres a bunch of links on the topic

    LINK

    Weve been paying out the ass for electricity here because of this for the last 25 years. In the end LILCO went out of buissness.
    Last edited by Gawain of Orkeny; 05-18-2005 at 02:41.
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  26. #86
    A Veteran Wargamer Member kiwitt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europe warns Iran... well sort of...

    As I said before Iran is surrounded by Nuclear Powers, Russia, Pakistan, India, US Navy vessels, etc., so it maybe pursuing this covertly. It may get them as a deterrent to these nations.

    I think some of the ex-Soviet republics could be considered unstable, and they have possibly access to some of the "missing nukes" from the old Soviet munitions, I am sure.
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  27. #87
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europe warns Iran... well sort of...

    You didn't answer the question, Kiwitt! SHOULD Iran be allowed to pursue nuclear weapons or not? Not are they, we all know they are, SHOULD they be allowed to?
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
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  28. #88
    A Veteran Wargamer Member kiwitt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europe warns Iran... well sort of...

    Answers

    Should they be allowed to pursue nuclear weapons. NO
    Should they be allowed to pursue nuclear power and reprocessing YES

    We should monitor their nuclear programs and ensure that all material used is accounted for.
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  29. #89
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europe warns Iran... well sort of...

    and reprocessing YES
    Why?
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  30. #90
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europe warns Iran... well sort of...

    Quote Originally Posted by kiwitt
    Should they be allowed to pursue nuclear power and reprocessing YES
    If Russia has already agreed to sell them all the fuel rods they could ever possibly need, at a reasonable rate, and if Russia didn't we'd probably funnel them to Israel, Pakistan or somebody else at a discount rate to make certain they'd take them, why do they need breeder reactors?
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
    Strike for the South

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