Capital Punishment

[Macedon]

I just read the news about the execution of some serial killer in usa. The guy murdered 4 kids, confessed of several more.
Now, there is an ongoing battle about morality and ethics of executions: some say that "killing as a punishment for killing" is doing the same thing that killer has done and cannot be justified, others say that death is the only punishment a killer deserves.
I myself believe that, say, a person that kidnapped, raped and skinned alive hundred children should be removed from the biosphere. Period.
He sure (or she) does not deserve the life sentence with access to clean, dry cell, maybe books and cable TV, good healthy food, and occasional sex

[Templar Knight]

The death penalty is too easy as is jail nowadays - send them on a nice holiday in the sun...

[Lazul]

Killing them is to let them get away easy. Id say Slave Labour camps untill they die. No mercy.

And if theese scum-of-the-earth people are proven innocent, well then they are alive to be free once more.

[Templar Knight]

I don't agree with the death penalty for the reasons as you have stated Lazul - its the easy way out and if they're not guilty then they're still alive to be set free. Prison on the other hand is not a punishment, sitting doing nothing and watching digital TV? So what would be a realistic punishment for the 21st century for child killers?

[Fragony]

I agree with death penalty, you give back what you take. If you are man enough to finish the life of someone else, there is no reason you should be allowed to live yours. Qui pro quo.

[Productivity]

I agree with the death penalty, provided there is a higher standard of proof for convicting someone. So instead of beyond reasonable doubt, beyond all realistic doubt or somethign like that.

[Proletariat]

I hate it. Seeking vengeance is basest and disgusting, and you can't commute a death penalty. Also, you're not unkilling/unraping those kids, so what's gained? A bunch of bloodthirsty self righteous people pat themselves on the back?

I'm always shocked that the Christian Right in my country is so pro-capitol punishment. Where are the WWJD bracelets then?

[Don Corleone]

As long as we have the death penalty, we have a culture of death. We cannot sanction murder by the state. As hard as it was to come to this place, I think we are free to punish a child-rapist/murderer any way we see fit short of this.

I think we've been looking at this all wrong. We're trying to come up with 'something' to 'do' to these sickos that somehow equates to the horrible acts they've done, a quid pro quo approach:

But the fact of the matter is, giving a lethal dose of potassium chloride to an evil, evil .......(I so want to say it...) ....guy lying on a gurney is in no way equivocal to what he did: taking a child into his house, repeatedly torturing & sodomizing them, then killing them in a slow and painful fashion when he finally got tired of the child and wanted a new plaything. As the final insult, burying them naked and degraded under the floorboards of his house, without a decent burial (as in the case of John Wayne Gasey). What could we possibly do to a man like that that would be equivocal, and if we found something and did it, what would that say about us? Would we even be human anymore ourselves?

You're right that prison isn't really punishment, and 'the rest of your natural life' really means 3 years beause parole boards don't have any cojones.

I say perform a minor lobotomy on these people. They're still functional, they can still exist and sustain themselves, but you're guaranteed that they won't be doing it anymore.

[Fragony]

I hate it. Seeking vengeance is basest and disgusting, and you can't commute a death penalty. Also, you're not unkilling/unraping those kids, so what's gained? A bunch of bloodthirsty self righteous people pat themselves on the back?

I'm always shocked that the Christian Right in my country is so pro-capitol punishment. Where are the WWJD bracelets then?

It is not about vengeance, it is about drawing a line. If you kill one person you get life in prison, kill ten and you also get life in prison? Death penalty is a good way of letting the people know what really shouldn't be. And do you feel sorry for the kind of people that get it? Some people just don't deserve to live.

[Productivity]

Reading Proletariat and Don Corleone's thoughts, I'm not sure about my initial view now. I'll think a bit more upon it.

[Proletariat]

It is not about vengeance, it is about drawing a line. If you kill one person you get life in prison, kill ten and you also get life in prison? Death penalty is a good way of letting the people know what really shouldn't be. And do you feel sorry for the kind of people that get it? Some people just don't deserve to live.

No, I don't feel sorry for anyone in the news, honestly. I can't put emotional investment in people's lives that have absolutely nothing to do with me.

I see what you mean about how death provides another degree of punishment, but I don't see what is gained by it. It's not worth a damn as far as a deterent. The damage the crime has caused has already been done, and I've never heard of a rape victim who felt peachy once their assailant has been put to death.

I used to be a big kill-'em-all-gal until I read an essay of Dostoievsky's on Anna Karenina where he discussed morals and consequences. When I'm at home later I'll try and post an excerpt or a link because he put it much better than I ever could.

[Fragony]

No, I don't feel sorry for anyone in the news, honestly. I can't put emotional investment in people's lives that have absolutely nothing to do with me.

I see what you mean about how death provides another degree of punishment, but I don't see what is gained by it. It's not worth a damn as far as a deterent. The damage the crime has caused has already been done, and I've never heard of a rape victim who felt peachy once their assailant has been put to death.

I used to be a big kill-'em-all-gal until I read an essay of Dostoievsky's on Anna Karenina where he discussed morals and consequences. When I'm at home later I'll try and post an excerpt or a link because he put it much better than I ever could.

He did that before in guilt and consequence And you gain nothing by punnishing putting them to death, but it helps putting things in perspective, nothing is ever gained. You could also do that by lowering the punnishment for murder to 5 years, and giving the guy that killed 10 50 years. But is that an honest thing to do? If you don't draw a line somewhere you get this grey area of what is acceptable. There are always circumstances, in france they call that a 'crime passionel'

[PanzerJaeger]

Kill them and save us all the trouble of having to support them the rest of their lives so they can watch cable, play on the internet, and get buff.

And dont tell me it costs more to kill these people than to support them for forty years. We as society have made it that expensive, we can fix it. Rope doesnt cost much..

Theres nothing wrong with justified retribution.

[Drisos]

I agree with death penalty, but not in the way that lazul sais.

I think death penalty should be hard-to-get and the convicted must be able to retry the trial once. But then, it should certainly be there, no mercy for a serial killer!

[Al Khalifah]

If I was the condemmed, I'd rather have the death penalty than spend the rest of my life in prison.

But that would be what I would want as a condemed man... go figure.

[Drisos]

If I was the condemmed, I'd rather have the death penalty than spend the rest of my life in prison.

Me too. But the convicted should be done the same harm as they did theirselves, and they didn't put someone in prison for the rest of their lives.
Somehow the morale behind a kill should be important too, don't know how. . .

[Al Khalifah]

You mean crimes of passion would be treated differently to premeditated killings. Absolutely agree there.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Im firmly against the death penalty. As has been said its to easy on them. Plus if you find out later they were innocent its hard to bring them back.

[Ronin]

i´m against the death penalty...i think it´s an incorrect form of punishment....the courts are suposed to be about justice....not revenge....

having said that i think if the bastards resist arrest the police shoud be allowed to just blow them away......but once they´re arrested and removed from society there is no need to resort to the death penalty.

[Macedon]

I don't see the point of death penalty as a punishment for the murderer. I see it as an "You don't deserve to live among the human society anymore" act. It's not about the murderer, nor the victims, it's about the rest of the society.
I repeat: Take him out of the biosphere!
Right to live is something you are granted at birth but for the rest of your life you are responsible for your actions.


And PanzerJager has a point: I don't want my tax money spent on some animal's cable TV, and take note: that little girl's father is paying taxes too!..........

[Gawain of Orkeny]

And PanzerJager has a point: I don't want my tax money spent on some animal's cable TV, and take note: that little girl's father is paying taxes too!..........

Yes all prisoners have cable tv in their cells LOL. Right now it costs more money because of the appeal process than it does to incarcerate these people. Im all for making their lifes a living hell but not killing them.

[Kanamori]

The problem is that, when a death sentence is carried out, there is no bringing back an innocent person wrongfully convicted. Juries, when they are ignorant of how the forensics work, and are just plain dumb - it happens when you select people from the populace - are not entirely good to have deciding your fate. In the US there have been many people released from death row, after finding that they are really innocent, and many people that have been proven innocent, or at least reasonable doubt, after they have been executed. It is inexcusable for the state to end innocent lives. Not to mention, the worst of the criminals get a blind eye turned to them when he is getting gangraped or beaten up in prison. Prison isn't exactly a free ride for them. Dahmer had his head beat in by a lead pipe and was sodomized with a broom handle. No reasonable person thinks that should be done to people, regardless of what crime they were convicted of. Do you want to find out if you are capable of being a monster just like him?

[Macedon]

Yes all prisoners have cable tv in their cells LOL. Right now it costs more money because of the appeal process than it does to incarcerate these people. Im all for making their lifes a living hell but not killing them.

I meant - they live anyway...

[Fragony]

Yes all prisoners have cable tv in their cells LOL. Right now it costs more money because of the appeal process than it does to incarcerate these people. Im all for making their lifes a living hell but not killing them.

But what is the difference then? You seem to care enough to wish them the worst possible life, but you are unwilling to end it. They are already dead, yet they just won't stop eating. Do you want them to be punnished and feel good about their misery? Because I don't, I want them gone, as swift and silent as possible. As uneventfull as possible.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

But what is the difference then? You seem to care enough to wish them the worst possible life, but you are unwilling to end it.

Yup I want to make an example of them and punish them. How many murderers take their own lifes? Many could care less that their gong to die and in fact some even get to the point where they ask to be exectued. I would rather die than spend say my life in solitary confinment with nothing but say some books to read to keep your sanity. There are far worse things than death.

[Fragony]

I would rather die than spend say my life in solitary confinment with nothing but say some books to read to keep your sanity. There are far worse things than death.

But why care what they would want? Their wanting days are over, they spoiled that. By all means suffer, but it is no capital punishment, it is euthanisia. I don't want them to suffer, I want them gone.

[Don Corleone]

But what is the difference then? You seem to care enough to wish them the worst possible life, but you are unwilling to end it. They are already dead, yet they just won't stop eating. Do you want them to be punnished and feel good about their misery? Because I don't, I want them gone, as swift and silent as possible. As uneventfull as possible.

Well Fragony, I see two differences between Gawain's scenario and yours....

1) Exculpatory evidence wouldn't be too late in his case. What would you do if you found concrete evidence the guy you just executed was innocent?

2) Gawain isn't using the act he's being punished for as punishment. Isn't there a little hypocricy in doing that?

My big problem with lifelong imprisonment is that it never is. If we did it, and we abolished capital punishement, now the Leftys would talk about how incarceration is cruel and inhumane. Some are already there: Doing all they can to keep criminals out of prison

[Fragony]

Well Fragony, I see two differences between Gawain's scenario and yours....

1) Exculpatory evidence wouldn't be too late in his case. What would you do if you found concrete evidence the guy you just executed was innocent?

2) Gawain isn't using the act he's being punished for as punishment. Isn't there a little hypocricy in doing that?

My big problem with lifelong imprisonment is that it never is. If we did it, and we abolished capital punishement, now the Leftys would talk about how incarceration is cruel and inhumane. Some are already there: Doing all they can to keep criminals out of prison

I see what you mean.... I'll be back

(why isn't it ever easy)

[JAG]

I think it is safe to say that people know where I stand. I do not only believe it is wrong for some of the reasons others have stated - you cannot bring an innocent back, it is in many ways far easier on the criminal than making them face up to what they have done and change - OK that is slightly different to others.

But on top of that there is clear moral objections. Firstly you are putting great power into state hands, I do not think the state should have the ability to arbitrarily sign death sentences, that is not only very dangerous but a clear breach of civil liberties and rights every human has. Secondly it is not morally acceptable to kill someone because they have killed someone else. Just because they have taken someones human rights it does not give you any more right to abuse theirs.

[Kanamori]

"My big problem with lifelong imprisonment is that it never is."

That's a huge load of crap. Dahmer got 15 consecutive life sentences, and he died in prison, meaning, among other examples, he served his sentence until his death. "In South Dakota, all those given life sentences serve without possibility of parole. The only chance for release is through the commutation process requiring unanimous approval of the commutation board and the governor. No one convicted of homicide has been commuted since 1974." (J. Kerkhove, Lifer?, The Messenger, July-Sept., 1992, at 19. http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/arti...5&did=481#sxn5)