Myths of WWII

[Don Corleone]

Nope, he's just saying that some things were, and he's not arguing that those things disqualify the Allied war effort.I know Cletus. He lives in Holland too. And I believe I hold him in much higher regard than you do. This is weird, you know - I don't have the impression that the U.S. Army in WWII was made up of Cletus caricatures at all. They were for the most part decent, upstanding citizens of a democracy. To take an image from a book to illustrate this: in Catch22 there is only one (1) Aardvark. Oral history bears out this fact, I think: the large majority of GI's knew very well what they were doing and what they were doing it for.

Now you've got me confused, Don. Who's looking down on Americans -- you or me?

You missed my point. I didn't mean to imply that the average American GI during WWII was stupid. Far from it. But at 19, with limited world experience, just showing up and plugging some holes in some people will probably be pretty traumatic for your psyche, even if they had it coming. If demonizing your enemy helps abate that, so be it. Maybe Dutch 19 year olds are more worldly and hardened and have no problem shooting a bunch of people they barely know, but it was a big concern over here... whether our men would be able to deal with the guilt & angst.

Americans have this foolish myth that we somehow brought civilization to Japan when we occupied it. Of course the Japanese were intelligent and civilized. Why were Mitsubishi zeroes the best fighters of their day? But in my mind, that makes what they did all the worse! If they raped all those women in China just to blow off some steam because they couldn't control their hormones, that would be bad enough. But it was a deliberate well-thought out policy. Systemic rape like that is done to break the spirit of an occupied people. The man will never look at his wife the same way again after every member of a 50 man rifle company screws her in public in the middle of the village. Worse, she damn sure will never trust him again to be the defender of the household. Both will be much more submissive and subservient as an occupied people. It is a very effective tool for breaking the spirit of a people so you don't have to put down uprisings in your lands as you continue to push your boundaries forward.

[PanzerJaeger]

Yup. And I think this is one reason why Brits and more particularly Americans fail to understand why so many Europeans in occupied countries came to some sort of accommodation with the Germans. They had seen the German army easily, in some cases almost effortlessly overrun their own, their cities and their countryside -- an event as morally devasting as it was physically threatening. In the first year of all-out war in Europe, most people in the occupied zones thought the Germans were there to stay for a thousand years indeed. Maybe Americans will understand some of that crushing dynamic if they recall the way the South reacted to the victory of (and partly the occupation by) the North at the end of the Civil War. It's a far cry, but it's a start to come to some sort of understanding.

That had a lot to do with the volunteers that came out of the occupied countries as well. In denmark i believe it was, the occupational leaders told men to join up and fight in the SS to ensure a favorable place in Hitler's new Europe.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Even then, others did the fighting. The best description of how Hitler was defeated was Stalin’s. The old monster said that England provided the time, America provided the money, and Russia provided the blood.

You know for years I advocated that we should not have entered WW2 until Russia and Germany beat each other to death or one threatened to beat the other. I never realized until I joined these forums , even thought Ive read hundreds of books on WW2, that thats just what we did.

[DisruptorX]

The most ignored fact about the Holocaust is that the Nazi's killed just as many Slavs as they killed Jews. This is not including soldiers killed on the battlefield. The racial ideology of the Nazi's is simplified into "they wanted to kill all the Jews". The real truth is far, far worse. The Nazis viewed all non-aryan races as fit for nothing other than slave labour, followed by death.

Which brings us the lovely, clean cut simplified version of what an "Aryan" is that they teach you in School: A blue-eyed, blonde-haired German. I know you all know that not all so called "aryans" are Germans, and the majority of them do not have blonde hair or blue eyes. Even kids bring up the obvious "um, Hitler didn't have blonde hair". This funny misconception isn't really important, like the above, but it is amusing.

Then there is the humourous idea of the French Armies being a bunch of weaklings and cowards. "Amée" in french must be feminine for a reason.
As funny as the cliche is, the French didn't lose because their soldiers weren't brave, they lost because of horrible leaders and obsolete tactcs.

-edit- Um....Kafir, you seem to be forgetting something....

The Allies didn't want to go to war. We did nothing to stop Japan, Italy, and Germany from seizing huge amounts of territory, brutally in the case of Japan and with pleas for help from diplomats of all the conquered nations to help them, which the allies were obliged to do, under treaty.

The Axis powers STARTED the war and even declared war on America. War isn't pretty, and *gasp* lots of people die. It isn't a good thing. You seem to be very harsh on the Allies, who's armies took no actions untill they were attacked first. It is [b]very[/i] clear who was in the right..

Also, Stalin was a more pure Bloshevik Marxist than Lenin was. In fact, the brutal policy against the kulaks was Lenin's idea. The nonsense about Stalin "corrupting Lenin's glorious peacefull non-violent marxist ideas" comes from Kruschev and other hypocrits who, after Stalin's death, wanted to distance themselves from him. Kruschev oversaw many atrocities under Stalin, and in the end, is responsible for what he did.

[KafirChobee]

Agree, America did not want to go to war - nor did Britain or France (though they were secure behind the "Marginal line (ms itentional)".

Americans have hated losing their sons (daughters) in war for the proclimations of men, or the objective principle theory (if it is good for business, it is good for us all). We have always challenged them. The real reason for the end of our involvement in Vietnam was because WWII (and Korea) vets joined the children to object about their being killed.

Some, accept that war is, as their nation defines it. Ignores the premices presentend and accept the following answers for its entrance into a quagmire that was undefined, undefendable, and unacceptable in a truely democratic society.

Then again, why do have this impulse to raise my right arm to
Gawain?

SIGAZEENUTS.

Or, F' off mate. Some how you lost the path. Missed the step between America and what happened in OK before 9/11.

Hope, I am wrong. Still, for us white guys facism has its attractions. J/K

[KafirChobee]

Then again maybe it (Facism) is just about you and your new found minions - the conservative club. What a pity, that none of you can see beyond a race, an issue, a cause, religious precept or conception, that not going along means challanging the entire concept of your idea of patriotism - Americanism - rreality.

Now, I know you claim to have been in 'nam as a Marine (what else - certainly not a doggy, grunt, or fodder). Atleast, that is your claim. NOW, you have had the time to look up events, alter previous statements to conform to past reality. You, are just smart enough to create a false image. Nothing you have given, is real.

Name a date, a person that stood beside you (for me to call - I still have buds that will verify my military "experience", and the number of times those that thought they could attempted to courtmartial me - when they were the ones in need of being investigate. Still, that is another story) - just give me something to make me believe that. Like trying to remember a black (for you negroe, colored, or ex-slave) covering your butt in combat (or, maybe one did it otherwise and that is why you are so upset - with the colords that is).

Still, I rarely judge the intents of others. Question? Yes.

The new intensity that the Conservative club has attempted against a variety of arguements - well, it seems they never bother to question their principles.

Seems, what ever the victors did was good. The losers, wrong. Or, that the only thing wrong Hitler's forces did was not kill more Jews, Slavs, Gypsys, Armenians, Finlanders, etcetera.

Then again, maybe PJ and Gawain can explain that. Who knows, maybe they can stand up for their prejudice. We are after all bigots in our own way - some for mankind, others for hanging nigers.

[DisruptorX]

Then again maybe it (Facism) is just about you and your new found minions - the conservative club. What a pity, that none of you can see beyond a race, an issue, a cause, religious precept or conception, that not going along means challanging the entire concept of your idea of patriotism - Americanism - rreality.

You obviously aren't very familiar with Fascism, are you? American democracy is almost the polar opposite of Fascism. American conservatives merely seek to implement liberal policies as they were in pre-industrial times. Fascism requires monolithic central government, the United States is a federation. We literally have tens of thousands of seperate governments.

Well, actually I know what you are doing. You are using the word "fascism" because it is a strong, negative word, not because it is an accurate description.

Seems, what ever the victors did was good. The losers, wrong. Or, that the only thing wrong Hitler's forces did was not kill more Jews, Slavs, Gypsys, Armenians, Finlanders, etcetera.

"But what about all the good things Hitler did?" Good joke.

Because, you know, he did anything other than treat Eastern Europe as subhumans, and his flunkies plundered France for frikkin' art treasures. That isn't even looting for necessity of war.

Your relativist views are sickening. There is nothing nice to say about the Nazis. Every positive achievement they accoplished was on the bones of those they casually exterminated or brutally slaughtered. You can hate the allies all you like, but hearing you defend the Nazis because you think that hating the Nazis is wrong because its propaganda is too much.

[DisruptorX]

Hope, I am wrong. Still, for us white guys facism has its attractions. J/K

Fascism is merely the logical conclusion of extreme nationalism. In Facism, the state is a goal in and of itself. All parts of society are expected to work in harmony for the good of the state, the exact opposite of Democracy, in fact. To say that Fascism doesn't have attractiveness would be foolish. Fascism is a very romantic ideology that emphasises traditional pride.

America is lucky in that our nationalism is focused on pride in our constitution, which means that there is a major cultural check on our government. I'm not saying our government is better than anyone's or anything, its just interesting that we have much more nationalist sentiment than any other democracy, but do not have a right wing authoritarian government (please, no Bush jokes. )

[PanzerJaeger]

Say what?

Finland caused WWII? WOW! Who'ld a guessed. The German culture was popular? Outside of the Nazi germany (that proved their roots to Mongolia)? Who'ld have suspected the Brits were jealous enough to start WWII over that.

I jest, of course. Not that many enjoy my sarcism - or appreciate it. But, someone blaming Finland for WWII - well, I couldn't stop myself. Forgive me.
All know it was Katzmanstan.

What the hell are you talking about? Show me where i blamed finland for causing WW2...

My arguement was that Finland was an innocent nation attacked just as Poland..

[PanzerJaeger]

Now, I know you claim to have been in 'nam as a Marine (what else - certainly not a doggy, grunt, or fodder). Atleast, that is your claim. NOW, you have had the time to look up events, alter previous statements to conform to past reality. You, are just smart enough to create a false image. Nothing you have given, is real.

What a horrible person you are..

Then again, maybe PJ and Gawain can explain that. Who knows, maybe they can stand up for their prejudice. We are after all bigots in our own way - some for mankind, others for hanging nigers.

Bitter as well. Bitter that America can see past the elementary race baiting and class baiting your ilk have used on us for years. Bitter that Americans are proud of their country - proud of their success.. maybe youre not so successful? Is that why you hate this country?

Maybe the government hasnt given you what you think you deserve.. is that why youre so bitter? Are you upset because America has gotten over the 60's.. and possibly left you behind? Have people stopped listening to your rants in the coffee shop? Has the fall of your beloved Soviet Union, the socialist beacon in the world, hurt you?

Or maybe a republican simply ran over your dog.. really, its hard to see where such hatred of a fellow veteran and some guy youve never met could come from..

[Brenus]

I wanted to bring my contribution to the debate on few points:
The bombing of the German’s towns: I could start by “who started? (Rotterdam, Coventry, the bombing and killing of the refugees) but I won’t. I will just remind that after the WW1 the German were able to deny the defeat because they didn’t see any sign in Germany proper of the defeat. In 1944, they couldn’t deny the defeat. That is also the reason why this time, the Allies wanted an total surrender (unconditional) and a occupation zone.
What happened after WW1: The aggressor suffered no loses on his territory and was able to rearm. That wasn’t possible after 1945.

Using the atomic bomb SAVED Japanese lives. People who don’t believe that just have to go for the statistic for Tarawa, Okinawa and other Iwo Jima. Why during an invasion of their soil, the Japanese should have been less fanatic?

The war wasn’t DECLEARED by any Allies’ countries; they were attacked by aggressive powers, and were obliged to go to war to protect others countries. You can’t blame France and England for Munich AND blame them to declare war on Germany for the invasion of Poland. The US tried to stay out of the war (not Roosevelt, on that I agreed) by they were clearly attacked.

No, France and England didn’t declare war to protect the Jews. The war was opened September 1st 1939 when the Stuka dropped their bomb on a bridge on the Vistule, and the Final Solution decision was finalised in January 1942, during the Wannzee Conference and Ghettos were official only in 1939, at the start of the war.
So, to deny the morality of the Allies Causes on this is just crap.

To depict you enemy under dark colours is usual when you are in war. The times were like that. Just to remind people: I belong to a country which was described not so long ago as “surrendering cheese eater monkeys” by somebody quiet well known, and just read what some people wrote in this site in the French Bashing game….

The opening of the Italian front obliged Hitler to withdraw few of his best units (SS) from the Eastern Front. It is called Strategy. A second front was vital for the Russian.
I agreed about the Allies’ atrocities, just remember that a Russian soldier had no pity to spare for the German after discovering what happened in Karkov, Minsk and other thousands ignored villages, remember the Einsatzgruppen.

There are wars you have to fight. There are just causes, and the war against Nazism IS none of these. If one day you go to France in holidays, just go to visit a village named Oradour sur Glane. And you will touch physically what Nazism is about. The French kept the village like the 2 SS DAS REICH left it. Burned to the ground…

[Adrian II]

(..) it was a big concern over here... whether our men would be able to deal with the guilt & angst.

Was there that much guilt & angst after Pearl Harbour? I always thought December 7, 1941, was the start of a fast, almost spontaneous recruitment drive throughout the country because Americans were so angry about the cowardly attack.

[Don Corleone]

Was there that much guilt & angst after Pearl Harbour? I always thought December 7, 1941, was the start of a fast, almost spontaneous recruitment drive throughout the country because Americans were so angry about the cowardly attack.

You asked why America was so pervasive with propaganda that dehumanized the Japanese. I'm telling you it was done in no small part because they didn't want to have to worry about millions of soldiers having a crisis of conscience out on the battlefield. Of couse Pearl Harbor was a big rallying cry. And it played a big part in the propaganda. "But did they declare war and attack us like men? No, they pulled a sneak attack because that's all they're capable of".

[Meneldil]

The real truth is far, far worse. The Nazis viewed all non-aryan races as fit for nothing other than slave labour, followed by death.

Quite untrue. There was a 'race ladder' established by Hitler and his fellows.
Obviously, Jews were at the bottom of it, which meant systematical extermination.
Slavs were a bit higher, as they were considered as sub-human, but still worth something. Many were hired as soldiers to help the Germans (white russians, poles, ukrainians, etc.). Of course, they were used for dangerous tasks, but they were not supposed to be killed on sight, except in some cases (invasion of USSR).
Higher, there were French, Italians, and other non germanic people considered as civilized, then non-aryan germanic people (Anglo-saxons, Dutch, etc.) and eventually, the so called Aryans.

All these so called races weren't considered equal by the Nazis.