Myths of WWII

[bmolsson]

I just watched a movie with Christian Slater as Winston Churchill an Amercian GI who hooked up with Princess Elisabeth. Another view on what really happened in WWII....

[KafirChobee]

Agree, America did not want to go to war - nor did Britain or France (though they were secure behind the "Marginal line (ms itentional)".

Americans have hated losing their sons (daughters) in war for the proclimations of men, or the objective principle theory (if it is good for business, it is good for us all). We have always challenged them. The real reason for the end of our involvement in Vietnam was because WWII (and Korea) vets joined the children to object about their being killed.

Some, accept that war is, as their nation defines it. Ignores the premices presentend and accept the following answers for its entrance into a quagmire that was undefined, undefendable, and unacceptable in a truely democratic society.

Then again, why do have this impulse to raise my right arm to
Gawain?

SIGAZEENUTS.

Or, F' off mate. Some how you lost the path. Missed the step between America and what happened in OK before 9/11.

Hope, I am wrong. Still, for us white guys facism has its attractions. J/K

[KafirChobee]

Then again maybe it (Facism) is just about you and your new found minions - the conservative club. What a pity, that none of you can see beyond a race, an issue, a cause, religious precept or conception, that not going along means challanging the entire concept of your idea of patriotism - Americanism - rreality.

Now, I know you claim to have been in 'nam as a Marine (what else - certainly not a doggy, grunt, or fodder). Atleast, that is your claim. NOW, you have had the time to look up events, alter previous statements to conform to past reality. You, are just smart enough to create a false image. Nothing you have given, is real.

Name a date, a person that stood beside you (for me to call - I still have buds that will verify my military "experience", and the number of times those that thought they could attempted to courtmartial me - when they were the ones in need of being investigate. Still, that is another story) - just give me something to make me believe that. Like trying to remember a black (for you negroe, colored, or ex-slave) covering your butt in combat (or, maybe one did it otherwise and that is why you are so upset - with the colords that is).

Still, I rarely judge the intents of others. Question? Yes.

The new intensity that the Conservative club has attempted against a variety of arguements - well, it seems they never bother to question their principles.

Seems, what ever the victors did was good. The losers, wrong. Or, that the only thing wrong Hitler's forces did was not kill more Jews, Slavs, Gypsys, Armenians, Finlanders, etcetera.

Then again, maybe PJ and Gawain can explain that. Who knows, maybe they can stand up for their prejudice. We are after all bigots in our own way - some for mankind, others for hanging nigers.

[DisruptorX]

Hope, I am wrong. Still, for us white guys facism has its attractions. J/K

Fascism is merely the logical conclusion of extreme nationalism. In Facism, the state is a goal in and of itself. All parts of society are expected to work in harmony for the good of the state, the exact opposite of Democracy, in fact. To say that Fascism doesn't have attractiveness would be foolish. Fascism is a very romantic ideology that emphasises traditional pride.

America is lucky in that our nationalism is focused on pride in our constitution, which means that there is a major cultural check on our government. I'm not saying our government is better than anyone's or anything, its just interesting that we have much more nationalist sentiment than any other democracy, but do not have a right wing authoritarian government (please, no Bush jokes. )

[DisruptorX]

Then again maybe it (Facism) is just about you and your new found minions - the conservative club. What a pity, that none of you can see beyond a race, an issue, a cause, religious precept or conception, that not going along means challanging the entire concept of your idea of patriotism - Americanism - rreality.

You obviously aren't very familiar with Fascism, are you? American democracy is almost the polar opposite of Fascism. American conservatives merely seek to implement liberal policies as they were in pre-industrial times. Fascism requires monolithic central government, the United States is a federation. We literally have tens of thousands of seperate governments.

Well, actually I know what you are doing. You are using the word "fascism" because it is a strong, negative word, not because it is an accurate description.

Seems, what ever the victors did was good. The losers, wrong. Or, that the only thing wrong Hitler's forces did was not kill more Jews, Slavs, Gypsys, Armenians, Finlanders, etcetera.

"But what about all the good things Hitler did?" Good joke.

Because, you know, he did anything other than treat Eastern Europe as subhumans, and his flunkies plundered France for frikkin' art treasures. That isn't even looting for necessity of war.

Your relativist views are sickening. There is nothing nice to say about the Nazis. Every positive achievement they accoplished was on the bones of those they casually exterminated or brutally slaughtered. You can hate the allies all you like, but hearing you defend the Nazis because you think that hating the Nazis is wrong because its propaganda is too much.

[Don Corleone]

Why do you read a word KhafirChobee has to say? I used to get upset about his rants too, but why bother? I already know, without reading a single word, what he's going to say... that conservatives are stupid, thuggish, cowardly and have abused the political system to take over the country. Pretty much any invective he can think of will be hurled. There's plenty of people I disagree with around here I do actually listen to, because I see a thought process behind what they're saying. But he just hates Republicans and that's all you're going to get.

[DisruptorX]

Why do you read a word KhafirChobee has to say? I used to get upset about his rants too, but why bother? I already know, without reading a single word, what he's going to say... that conservatives are stupid, thuggish, cowardly and have abused the political system to take over the country. Pretty much any invective he can think of will be hurled. There's plenty of people I disagree with around here I do actually listen to, because I see a thought process behind what they're saying. But he just hates Republicans and that's all you're going to get.

*sigh*, that's just what I ranted about randomly in another thread. His entire cynical anti-Ally rant comes from his belief that actions are good or bad depending on the personal opinions of those who do them, rather than whether the actions themselves are good or bad. There's relativism for ya. The communists in Russia caused millions of deaths for the sake of an ideal, that does not make their actions right, it makes them all the worse. Heck, so did the Nazis. Whether a policy is conservative or liberal does not make something good or bad, whether the effects are good or bad make the policy good or bad.

Of course, he's starting to rant like a zeolot, which is always ironic. Some people treat their political leaning like a religion, complete with commandments that cannot be broken for any reason and an enemy to wage a holy war on.

Obvious the allies were evil, duh, Churchill was a conservative, after all.

Thanks for the warning. As portent.net shut down, I no longer can get my political fix and came here. Portent had actual standards that were observed, though. The point was debate based on issues, not debate based on political leaning. You're right in that I just took his flamebait.

TThe new intensity that the Conservative club has attempted against a variety of arguements - well, it seems they never bother to question their principles.

That pretty ends your rant pre-maturely. You just told other people to question their principles while you play devil's advocate for the Nazi party. Wonderful. Do you even have principles? It would seem not, as you have show only a cynical, relativist view that sees the entire world as being victims of those countries now most succesful. The great thing is, unlike in those wonderful countries you mentioned, in America we let you think what you like, if it hurts no one. Think about that for a moment, really think about it.

[Adrian II]

(..) it was a big concern over here... whether our men would be able to deal with the guilt & angst.

Was there that much guilt & angst after Pearl Harbour? I always thought December 7, 1941, was the start of a fast, almost spontaneous recruitment drive throughout the country because Americans were so angry about the cowardly attack.

[PanzerJaeger]

Say what?

Finland caused WWII? WOW! Who'ld a guessed. The German culture was popular? Outside of the Nazi germany (that proved their roots to Mongolia)? Who'ld have suspected the Brits were jealous enough to start WWII over that.

I jest, of course. Not that many enjoy my sarcism - or appreciate it. But, someone blaming Finland for WWII - well, I couldn't stop myself. Forgive me.
All know it was Katzmanstan.

What the hell are you talking about? Show me where i blamed finland for causing WW2...

My arguement was that Finland was an innocent nation attacked just as Poland..

[PanzerJaeger]

Now, I know you claim to have been in 'nam as a Marine (what else - certainly not a doggy, grunt, or fodder). Atleast, that is your claim. NOW, you have had the time to look up events, alter previous statements to conform to past reality. You, are just smart enough to create a false image. Nothing you have given, is real.

What a horrible person you are..

Then again, maybe PJ and Gawain can explain that. Who knows, maybe they can stand up for their prejudice. We are after all bigots in our own way - some for mankind, others for hanging nigers.

Bitter as well. Bitter that America can see past the elementary race baiting and class baiting your ilk have used on us for years. Bitter that Americans are proud of their country - proud of their success.. maybe youre not so successful? Is that why you hate this country?

Maybe the government hasnt given you what you think you deserve.. is that why youre so bitter? Are you upset because America has gotten over the 60's.. and possibly left you behind? Have people stopped listening to your rants in the coffee shop? Has the fall of your beloved Soviet Union, the socialist beacon in the world, hurt you?

Or maybe a republican simply ran over your dog.. really, its hard to see where such hatred of a fellow veteran and some guy youve never met could come from..

[Brenus]

I wanted to bring my contribution to the debate on few points:
The bombing of the German’s towns: I could start by “who started? (Rotterdam, Coventry, the bombing and killing of the refugees) but I won’t. I will just remind that after the WW1 the German were able to deny the defeat because they didn’t see any sign in Germany proper of the defeat. In 1944, they couldn’t deny the defeat. That is also the reason why this time, the Allies wanted an total surrender (unconditional) and a occupation zone.
What happened after WW1: The aggressor suffered no loses on his territory and was able to rearm. That wasn’t possible after 1945.

Using the atomic bomb SAVED Japanese lives. People who don’t believe that just have to go for the statistic for Tarawa, Okinawa and other Iwo Jima. Why during an invasion of their soil, the Japanese should have been less fanatic?

The war wasn’t DECLEARED by any Allies’ countries; they were attacked by aggressive powers, and were obliged to go to war to protect others countries. You can’t blame France and England for Munich AND blame them to declare war on Germany for the invasion of Poland. The US tried to stay out of the war (not Roosevelt, on that I agreed) by they were clearly attacked.

No, France and England didn’t declare war to protect the Jews. The war was opened September 1st 1939 when the Stuka dropped their bomb on a bridge on the Vistule, and the Final Solution decision was finalised in January 1942, during the Wannzee Conference and Ghettos were official only in 1939, at the start of the war.
So, to deny the morality of the Allies Causes on this is just crap.

To depict you enemy under dark colours is usual when you are in war. The times were like that. Just to remind people: I belong to a country which was described not so long ago as “surrendering cheese eater monkeys” by somebody quiet well known, and just read what some people wrote in this site in the French Bashing game….

The opening of the Italian front obliged Hitler to withdraw few of his best units (SS) from the Eastern Front. It is called Strategy. A second front was vital for the Russian.
I agreed about the Allies’ atrocities, just remember that a Russian soldier had no pity to spare for the German after discovering what happened in Karkov, Minsk and other thousands ignored villages, remember the Einsatzgruppen.

There are wars you have to fight. There are just causes, and the war against Nazism IS none of these. If one day you go to France in holidays, just go to visit a village named Oradour sur Glane. And you will touch physically what Nazism is about. The French kept the village like the 2 SS DAS REICH left it. Burned to the ground…

[Don Corleone]

Was there that much guilt & angst after Pearl Harbour? I always thought December 7, 1941, was the start of a fast, almost spontaneous recruitment drive throughout the country because Americans were so angry about the cowardly attack.

You asked why America was so pervasive with propaganda that dehumanized the Japanese. I'm telling you it was done in no small part because they didn't want to have to worry about millions of soldiers having a crisis of conscience out on the battlefield. Of couse Pearl Harbor was a big rallying cry. And it played a big part in the propaganda. "But did they declare war and attack us like men? No, they pulled a sneak attack because that's all they're capable of".

[Meneldil]

The real truth is far, far worse. The Nazis viewed all non-aryan races as fit for nothing other than slave labour, followed by death.

Quite untrue. There was a 'race ladder' established by Hitler and his fellows.
Obviously, Jews were at the bottom of it, which meant systematical extermination.
Slavs were a bit higher, as they were considered as sub-human, but still worth something. Many were hired as soldiers to help the Germans (white russians, poles, ukrainians, etc.). Of course, they were used for dangerous tasks, but they were not supposed to be killed on sight, except in some cases (invasion of USSR).
Higher, there were French, Italians, and other non germanic people considered as civilized, then non-aryan germanic people (Anglo-saxons, Dutch, etc.) and eventually, the so called Aryans.

All these so called races weren't considered equal by the Nazis.

[Adrian II]

There are wars you have to fight. There are just causes, and the war against Nazism IS none of these.

I suppose you mean: the war against Nazism is one of these, not 'none' of these.

Of course it was a just cause. That's why the Allied war effort was necessary and the outcome was predominantly good, but certainly not in every sense. The outcome in Europe was almost as bad as a German victory would have been, because that outcome relied so much on the contribution of that other ruthless dictatorship, the USSR. 'Potsdam' was both a victory and a defeat for freedom. The war generation hasn't forgotten this ambivalence; they were well aware at the time that 'Potsdam' was necessary in order to crush the beast, but that it was a defeat at the same time. Russians soldiers realised this just as much, judging by the story I linked to above. They were happy with Germany's defeat, not with Uncle Joe's triumph.

The outcome in the East was a crucial grab for power by the Chinese Communists -- enabled by the Japanese defeat just as much as by Chiang's incompetence -- and a series of devastating colonial wars ending in national independence and a flurry of native dictatorships taking over from the colonial powers. Count your blessings...

I have been thinking about Don Corleone's and Proletariat's question what I got out of the article. I've been thinking both about the answer to that question and about the question itself.

If different birds like Panzerjager, KafirChobee and I all get something out of it for our own reasons, the author must be doing something right. His article lacks all the popular markers of conservatism, PC or leftist lunacy that Americans seem to be trained to look for these days. Maybe that's what makes it confusing to some. They keep looking for the subliminal message buried in the text that whispers: 'America bad, Communism/Jihadism good' or something to that effect. It isn't there. The article leaves no room for an easy way out.

What I got out of it? I think the main thrust of the article is that the triumph of a good cause always, or at least very often, requires some costly compromise with evil. The victory over fascist Japan and Nazi-Germany required a compromise with the USSR, an understanding with the Chinese Communists and undue tolerance for the old British, French and Dutch colonial bastards who wanted to resume exploitation-as-usual in their former overseas empires. The victory in the Cold War required costly compromises with unpalatable forces all over the world, some of which have come to haunt us in the shape of islamist terrorism that grew out of the islamic movements fostered by the West as an antidote against Arab and South East Asian Communism.

There's a lesson there for everyone. Foreigners who demand that America fight a 'clean' war on terrorism are just as deluded as Americans who expect their country to win a decisive victory over 'evil' in the world.

If we want to fight islamist terrorism, it is going to require another compromise, another 'Potsdam'. Who should be our partners? What will be the new iron curtain drawn across the world, cutting right through our own societies and probably our own hearts and minds?

Proletariat, you wrote some months ago that Anericans should keep guns at home and keep them well-greased, just in case the Patriot Act turns out to be the beginning of an all-out offensive against liberty in their country and they would have to defend themselves. Osama would love to see Americans fight their own government. Are you willing to compromise and accept your won 'Potsdam'?

[Meneldil]

Hum, I think western world already signed a Postdam to get rid of terrorism, by supporting all tyrannical gvts who are supposedly fighting terrorism (though IMO they're only making the issue bigger) : Pakistan, Arabia, Egypt, Algeria, etc.

[Brenus]

ADRIAN II, thank for the rectification. Of course it was one of…

About the result, no, I don’t think a German victory and a Russian (read Communist) victory would have the same effect, The Russians succeeded to escape from Communism. No escape for the Unter-menshen in case of Nazism.
Do not misunderstand me. I refuse the choice offered in the 70’ between left and right. To be awake at 4 in the morning by the Gestapo or the KGB and to finish in the Wilhemstrass or the Lubianka isn’t a choice. To choose between Castro and Pinochet, no thank you.
But between plague and cholera choose cholera. With a lot of water and perfusion you may survive. But not all...
I agree: there aren’t easy ways.
Concerning the actual fight against “Evil”, just the choice of the word shows a big mistake, and both camps use it to qualify their opponents. Both Bush Jr and Bin Laden think God is with them.
If you fight Evil, no compromise is possible. It allowed the dilemma “who isn’t with me is against me” not only in politic, but also in economy and other aspects of our life. Like in good 70” when a Peruvian, Bolivian or Chilean was a “Commy” when he asked for a better salary or for his dignity.
For the Muslim, this allowed them to think of the Umma, the community of the Believers which never existed, except as a dream.
There aren’t clean wars or intelligent weapons. A soldier is a human being and will react to some stress wit inappropriate behaviour. The French won the “dirty war” in Algeria military speaking but lost it politically, but they also lost the aims of the Republic expressed in their own Constitution and their own Universal Right Chart. That’s one of the lessons the decolonisation. It is absurd but true: some torturers in the French Army were themselves tortured by the Gestapo… I just hope the US army and the US won’t loose their own values in Iraq.
The outcome of the WW2 shows there isn’t a clear victory of the goodies against the badies.

We are farm from the Myths of the WW2. Well, yes and no. If you read the pamphlet distributed by the English in 1942? (I am not sure of the date) to the Iraqis, it was also to save them from a tyrant. And the result was quiet the same…

[Ser Clegane]

@KafirChobee:

Please refrain from using this thread as a vehicle to insult and slander patrons who happen to have a different political opinion than you - this thread is a bout the article AdrianII posted and not about what you think about the Conservative Club.

You got a PM...