Do you beleave in God(Poll)

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Spontaneous creation. Some life had to come after unlife, it was just a matter of time before single celled ortganisms poopped into existence and then evolved into chemical meat bags, such as us.

[Quietus]

It's all random.

The physical laws here on earth led to the chemical laws. The chemical laws led to biological laws ("life"). The biological laws led to societal laws.

Physics-->Chemistry-->Biology-->Society-->?

What's next? "The Matrix"? Maybe.... The point is, that's evolution to you.

[bmolsson]

I always wondered, how can anyone that believe in God ever be insulted over his belief ?? Frankly speaking, I really strong belief would make any attempt to mock it impossible.......

[King Henry V]

I believe in one omniscient, benevolent but not omnipotent Lord, and that all evil in the world stems from the devil. I believe in His Son, Our Saviour Jesus Christ and in the Holy Spirit. I believe that God has helped me on several occasions.

Our planet has a very special position. It is in that thin strip of the solar system where life is actually possible, and it is a wonder that we have not been destroyed by meteorites. If the stars created everything, the what created the stars? Not even the greatest scientists know that.

Religion is the basis of our laws. It is the basis of our ideas of good and evil, right and wrong. Naturally Man himself has manipulated religion to his advantage, but is that not Man's fault instead of religion?

I believe that atheism is root of the degeneration of modern society. It is the root of yobbism, of crime, of promiscuity, of the increasing number of single mothers and of the lack of morality. The world has lost its sense of right and wrong.The Pope is right: the best way to prevent AIDS is sexual abstenance.

[Al Khalifah]

God made the big-bang, therefore God made everything.

So evolution and universe expansion are true, but so is Genesis. Judgement day will come when the universe contracts again (assuming that the universe will contract and that it will not stagnate or continue to expand indefinately depending on the Hubbel constant).

Scientific discovery doesn't have to disprove God, it only enhances his reputation that so many miracles could occur out of random chance. Does that make everyone happy?

[Ja'chyra]

God made the big-bang, therefore God made everything.

So where did God come from?

Personally I don't believe but mainly because I don't care. If believing in God helps you that's fine with me, just don't try to force it on me and we'll get along fine.

[Meneldil]

I don't believe in God and I don't like biggots (Christian, Jew and Muslims biggots), though I enjoyed reading the Bible and the Koran.

[bmolsson]

So where did God come from?

Sigh... From Gods mom of course... Everyone knows that....

[Duke Malcolm]

It's all random.

The physical laws here on earth led to the chemical laws. The chemical laws led to biological laws ("life"). The biological laws led to societal laws.

Physics-->Chemistry-->Biology-->Society-->?

What's next? "The Matrix"? Maybe.... The point is, that's evolution to you.

A number of revered, and esteemed astrophysicists have shown that these laws are so finely-tuned (should they be in the slightest bit different, this wouldn't be here), that it cannot be random, and that there must be/have been a Creator. A number of these astrophysicists have converted from athiesm/agnosticism following this discovery/reasoning.

On the other hand, however; a number of equally revered, and esteemed astrophysicists have theorised that there is this theoretical multiverse, which contains an infinite number of universes, each with different laws,then the existence of our universe is an inevitability. Since there is no proof of a multiverse, then we have no way of knowing if the theory is true.

So, you can see, that the laws have not got the experts any where in the great theological debate.

[Quietus]

A number of revered, and esteemed astrophysicists have shown that these laws are so finely-tuned (should they be in the slightest bit different, this wouldn't be here), that it cannot be random, and that there must be/have been a Creator. A number of these astrophysicists have converted from athiesm/agnosticism following this discovery/reasoning.

On the other hand, however; a number of equally revered, and esteemed astrophysicists have theorised that there is this theoretical multiverse, which contains an infinite number of universes, each with different laws,then the existence of our universe is an inevitability. Since there is no proof of a multiverse, then we have no way of knowing if the theory is true.

So, you can see, that the laws have not got the experts any where in the great theological debate.

Those are highly illogical points, sorry.

1) If there were "intelligent designs", then you would have "life" or other creatures in other planets.

2) Billions of years of evolution. That's a shade long for something intelligent. Why not spontaneous creation? Because evolution is random as well as mutation.

3) All these energy and matter in the whole universe just to create "life" in (what I usually refer to as) a 'ball of nothing' (nee' earth). The earth is so tiny, calling it a blip is an astounding exaggeration. So your god is ineffiecient too? ("Omnipotent, Omniscient, Benevolent" and 'ineffiecient' lol Excellent!).

Since there is no proof of a multiverse, then we have no way of knowing if the theory is true.

There's no proof of god either. Watch, people refer to him as human-shaped. That's because he's patterned to man's likeness as imagined by people.

A number of revered, and esteemed astrophysicists have shown that these laws are so finely-tuned (should they be in the slightest bit different, this wouldn't be here), that it cannot be random, and that there must be/have been a Creator.

Exactly, that's why it is random. The earth is full of freaks. It's all an accident if you will. Random collision of molecules, random chemical reactions fueled by the sun. Life evolved over billions of years.

Can you win a lottery in 50 years if you buy 10 tickets a day? Likely not. If anybody can win a lottery instantly, then it's not random. Fact is, it is random.

If life happened spontaneously, then call me converted, but no, it had to take billions of years in a little planet called earth that is insignicant compared to the rest of the universe. That's random!

[Don Corleone]

Well, I don't know if anybody has made this point, but I don't have the time or the inclination to read through 4 pages of "yes there is", "no there isn't", although the Frag & Aid show is entertaining, as always.

But for strictly selfish reasons, you should find a way to come to grips with a higher being. I'm going to make the Soren Kirkegaard argument. There's only four possible scenarios:

1) There's no God and you're an atheist

2) There's no God but you believed there was

3) There is a God, but you were an atheist.

4) There is a God, and you believed in him.

Of all possible outcomes, only 1 is positive. If you're an atheist, you'll either never know you're right, or you're going to have a lot of explaining to do. If you're a believer, you'll either never know you were wrong, or you're on the good foot coming into the after life.

[Al Khalifah]

What'd be really funny would be if there was an afterlife, but no-one got the right religion... so everyone went to hell apart from that insane guy from Aliens.

[Fragony]

What'd be really funny would be if there was an afterlife, but no-one got the right religion... so everyone went to hell apart from that insane guy from Aliens.

That reminds me of a show by rowan atkinson, where he plays the devil. He calls for the christians: 'sorry the jews were right'

[Duke Malcolm]

Those are highly illogical points, sorry.

Not points, facts.

1) If there were "intelligent designs", then you would have "life" or other creatures in other planets.

2) Billions of years of evolution. That's a shade long for something intelligent. Why not spontaneous creation? Because evolution is random as well as mutation.

3) All these energy and matter in the whole universe just to create "life" in (what I usually refer to as) a 'ball of nothing' (nee' earth). The earth is so tiny, calling it a blip is an astounding exaggeration. So your god is ineffiecient too? ("Omnipotent, Omniscient, Benevolent" and 'ineffiecient' lol Excellent!).

You just contradicted yourself here. Read through points one and three...

There's no proof of god either. Watch, people refer to him as human-shaped. That's because he's patterned to man's likeness as imagined by people.

Read Genesis, or perhaps the whole pentateuch, it all makes good reading. God created man in His own image.

Exactly, that's why it is random. The earth is full of freaks. It's all an accident if you will. Random collision of molecules, random chemical reactions fueled by the sun. Life evolved over billions of years.

Can you win a lottery in 50 years if you buy 10 tickets a day? Likely not. If anybody can win a lottery instantly, then it's not random. Fact is, it is random.

If life happened spontaneously, then call me converted, but no, it had to take billions of years in a little planet called earth that is insignicant compared to the rest of the universe. That's random!

Life may have evolved (note that I am an agnostic, by-the-by) but the laws of science are so precise, that should any one of them have been different, then this universe would not exist. So it can't be random unless there is a multiverse, for which there is as much proof as God. Only then shall the chemical reactions and laws of science be random.

[Don Corleone]

Quietus,

Where did anyone in this thread hold to a terra-centric universe? Of course intelligent life could (and probably does) exist on other planets. Assuming they were advanced enough to be capable of inter-stellar travel, they almost certainly would observe our communications prior to an initial contact, and almost certainly would (rightfully) conclude that the experience would generate global termoil. We're simply not ready for that level of eye-opening. As much as I thought they were the coolest, I cannot believe a species like the Klingons would ever come about... that's a LOT of effort, energy & resources spent, just to go find new people to kill. This is why I don't believe in all of this 'abduction' business, I believe we're under quarantine.

[Al Khalifah]

I'm not sure what Scientoligists believe in for an afterlife. And this is why I think you're judged by your own conscience. That's not the same thing as moral relativisim, because in that, as long as you can rationalize your behaviors, they're not immoral. I'm talking about what you held to be right & wrong in your heart of hearts. I cannot imagine a God with any sort of mercy or understanding acting in any other way.

But then a lot of people who are really good people but judge themselves by too high standards wouldn't be good enough for heaven. For example "I saved 1000 people from burning buildings but there was one little girl I couldn't save and I'll blame myself forever"...
Also you'll have people with really bad moral codes going to paradise. Some people are really really bad people through and through. These people would be rewarded over people who do bad deads occasionally but know they've done wrong.

Personally I quite like the Grim Fandango idea of an afterlife. Anyone who's played the game must surely agree. "The Gate opens, the Gate closes, it does not help."

[Quietus]

Quietus,

Where did anyone in this thread hold to a terra-centric universe? Of course intelligent life could (and probably does) exist on other planets. Assuming they were advanced enough to be capable of inter-stellar travel, they almost certainly would observe our communications prior to an initial contact, and almost certainly would (rightfully) conclude that the experience would generate global termoil. We're simply not ready for that level of eye-opening. As much as I thought they were the coolest, I cannot believe a species like the Klingons would ever come about... that's a LOT of effort, energy & resources spent, just to go find new people to kill. This is why I don't believe in all of this 'abduction' business, I believe we're under quarantine.

I personally believe there are other "living" creatures in other pockets of the universe. however, I do not believe they are anything like use. Our line of evolution is unique and so will their evolution. Heck, not even carbon-based.

Do you know what "intelligent design" means? It means a 'God' designed everything from the start and he knows the final product, which is US. Now that is the dumbest, most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

A being that powerful will opt for spontaneous creation instead. But no, there are no spontaneous creation because there is no god. As a lowly human being, do you use a remote control or do you stand up all the time? snail-mail or e-mail?

What's the purpose of Mars? Venus, Mercury, Pluto? 8 out of 9 in our solar system have no life whatsoever. Where's the "intelligent design"?

[Quietus]

Not points, facts.

Where? Give something concrete, please.

You just contradicted yourself here. Read through points one and three...

Billions of years of evolution vs. Spontaneous creation in a flash. As a human being that is undeniably smart, which do you prefer? If god made that choice of 'billions of years of evolution' over spontaneous creation. Is he being petty or inefficient? There was no plan, it's random.

Read Genesis, or perhaps the whole pentateuch, it all makes good reading. God created man in His own image.

Every single feature of our body resulted from mutation (which is random), there no outright plan or formula. Our features evolved over time, just like the chicken's features evolved over time or any other creature in this planet, even a virus, which by the way is NOT living.

Whichever mutation is favored in an environment is selected for to survive and reproduce, that's all. If trees in a certain island produce only tough seed that is bird food, those who have large enough beaks will strive, those will smaller beaks will be outcompeted and eventually wither.

God did not plan that. That's just evolution and mutation which are both random. Now, if twenty years from now, those trees were all burned out by an accidental lightning and subsequent fire. Then smaller plants that replaced those trees have small seeds that are too tiny to be picked by large beaks. Guess who will strive then? The bird with beaks that can pick.

God has nothing to do with it at all. Just because we are currently at the top of the food chain doesn't mean we will stay there. The dinosaurs used to be the main predators too. Where are they now? Certainly, god didn't create those beast in his image.

Life may have evolved (note that I am an agnostic, by-the-by) but the laws of science are so precise, that should any one of them have been different, then this universe would not exist. So it can't be random unless there is a multiverse, for which there is as much proof as God. Only then shall the chemical reactions and laws of science be random.

What I meant by random is by billions of years of chemical reaction. There's a lot of energy from the sun driving all these chemical reactions. There's no blueprint from the start. We're just an anomaly. An aberration. Evolution is `winging-it`.

[Duke Malcolm]

Where? Give something concrete, please.

That many astrophysicists believe that there is a Creator, because they believe the laws are so "finely-tuned", that they cannot simply be random.
or
that there is not a Creator, and that there are an infinite number of universes each with different laws, so the existence of this universe is inevitable.
And that there is as much proof for a multiverse, or the lack of God, as there is for an abundance of God

Billions of years of evolution vs. Spontaneous creation in a flash. As a human being that is undeniably smart, which do you prefer? If god made that choice of 'billions of years of evolution' over spontaneous creation. Is he being petty or inefficient? There was no plan, it's random.

To be honest, I prefer Spontaneous creation. I don't like to think that my ancestors used to be apes and lived up trees...
Is there not also the possibility that God created the laws of science, to create the universe as he sees fit? He started the ball rolling, and now it is in motion until it comes to his chosen design? Maybe to God, billions of years pass quickly...

Every single feature of our body resulted from mutation (which is random), there no outright plan or formula. Our features evolved over time, just like the chicken's features evolved over time or any other creature in this planet, even a virus, which by the way is NOT living.

Whichever mutation is favored in an environment is selected for to survive and reproduce, that's all. If trees in a certain island produce only tough seed that is bird food, those who have large enough beaks will strive, those will smaller beaks will be outcompeted and eventually wither.

God did not plan that. That's just evolution and mutation which are both random. Now, if twenty years from now, those trees were all burned out by an accidental lightning and subsequent fire. Then smaller plants that replaced those trees have small seeds that are too tiny to be picked by large beaks. Guess who will strive then? The bird with beaks that can pick.

God has nothing to do with it at all. Just because we are currently at the top of the food chain doesn't mean we will stay there. The dinosaurs used to be the main predators too. Where are they now? Certainly, god didn't create those beast in his image.

No, only man was created in his own image. As I said, read Genesis. The theory of evolution still has not been fully proven, by-the-by. Could it also not be that evolution is God's way of finding the best creature. Perhaps God creates a change whenever He feeld one is necessary, perhaps He kills of species which he doesn't like because they are not suited.

What I meant by random is by billions of years of chemical reaction. There's a lot of energy from the sun driving all these chemical reactions. There's no blueprint from the start. We're just an anomaly. An aberration. Evolution is `winging-it`.

Chemical reactions are not necessarily random, so billions of years' worth of chemical reaction are not necessarily random either.

[Byzantine Prince]

A number of revered, and esteemed astrophysicists have shown that these laws are so finely-tuned (should they be in the slightest bit different, this wouldn't be here), that it cannot be random, and that there must be/have been a Creator.

Ah yes, and why does it have to be a creator?

Why are these astrophysicists so arogant as to think they figured everything out and everything is in perfect order?

[Duke Malcolm]

Ah yes, and why does it have to be a creator?

Why are these astrophysicists so arogant as to think they figured everything out and everything is in perfect order?

I don't know. I just know that these is one of their reasonings. It seemed silly to me at first, too.

[Big_John]

I don't know. I just know that these is one of their reasonings. It seemed silly to me at first, too.

that's because it is silly. obviously these revered, esteemed astrophysicists can't look at simple probabilities without getting all starry eyed.

[Duke Malcolm]

They have their arguments, but to me, there is as much reason to suggest that there is a Creator as there is to suggest that there is not a Creator, so Agnosticism is the chosen path for me.

[ah_dut]

Ah yes, and why does it have to be a creator?

Why are these astrophysicists so arogant as to think they figured everything out and everything is in perfect order?

Why not I ask? Things in science are goverened by rules are they not?

Evolution is not totally random, neither is anything else...they are governed by the rules of physics or some other rule. Therefore, can not the universe be governed by rules? Our lives are governed by things like the laws of motion and perhaps in the future Quantum Mechanics...I don't presume to understand such laws but they do exist and it is proven...thus is there not order?

Perfect order is in the eye of the beholder...it depends whether you can see the strands in seemingly meaningless data...all the things I learn by reading AS papers and A level papers in physics before GCSE level...nothing

[Mikeus Caesar]

Haha!!!

Non-believers - 44
Believers - 33

I don't believe in God because it doesn't seem logical.

[Byzantine Prince]

Why not I ask? Things in science are goverened by rules are they not?

Evolution is not totally random, neither is anything else...they are governed by the rules of physics or some other rule.

Just because there are rules doesn't make them have order. Evolution is completely random. Just because we think that we have figured out some rules and things that hapen often doesn't mean these rules were made by someone neither does it mean we cannot bend these rules. Just like the man flying. Gravity would have you think it's impossible but there you have it.

[Don Corleone]

Just because there are rules doesn't make them have order. Evolution is completely random. Just because we think that we have figured out some rules and things that hapen often doesn't mean these rules were made by someone neither does it mean we cannot bend these rules. Just like the man flying. Gravity would have you think it's impossible but there you have it.

And it was another set of rules, referred to collectively as 'Bernouli's princple' that made flight possible. What's your point?

The defintion of random, according to my friend Mr. Webster, is 'lacking aim or method, purposeless, haphazard". Defintion 2 "Not unform, of different sizes". Definition 3 "from statistics, of, pertaining to, or characterizing a set of items every member of which has an equal chance of occurring or of occurring with a particular frequency".

Clearly, definition 3 would be the most appropriate in this case, and it does not define evolution. All outcomes are not equally likely, and there are some clearly observable patterns that impact the outcome, such as weather. Just because the outcome is not deterministic doesn't mean it's random.

You guys on the "No God" side need to be careful not to hinge all of your arguments on the "universe is chaotic & random". You certainly should see that the arguments that around an ordered universe and around the existence of God are two independent considerations. I can think of working models for any of the four possible combinations (ordered universe/chaotic & God/no God).