Do you beleave in God(Poll)

[Fragony]

There has to be something.

[Adrian II]

There has to be something.

Coffee --> comp screen.

Don't do that, Frag!

[Fragony]

Coffee --> comp screen.

Don't do that, Frag!

Just when I was going to get philosophical that cursed lama from rotterdam rains on my parade. Begone heathen for I will smite thee.

[Adrian II]

Just when I was going to get philosophical that cursed lama from rotterdam rains on my parade. Begone heathen for I will smite thee.

The smiting on this web site is getting out of hand lately. I've been smitted, smoten and smuttered at least three times this week.

[Fragony]

The smiting on this web site is getting out of hand lately. I've been smitted, smoten and smuttered at least three times this week.

Ahhh you got the tripple s huh? Well let me tell you, no means no, even in the TMF chatrooms.

pervert.

[Adrian II]

'Yays' top 'nays' by 39:28. Bebekung Mampa Hoonanooga withdraw from world till next avatar.

[Fragony]

'Yays' top 'nays' by 39:28. Bebekung Mampa Hoonanooga withdraw from world till next avatar.

Damn you. Just when I had a witty reply you edit the post

[Adrian II]

Damn you. Just when I had a witty reply you edit the post

F**** again!

[Quietus]

A number of revered, and esteemed astrophysicists have shown that these laws are so finely-tuned (should they be in the slightest bit different, this wouldn't be here), that it cannot be random, and that there must be/have been a Creator. A number of these astrophysicists have converted from athiesm/agnosticism following this discovery/reasoning.

On the other hand, however; a number of equally revered, and esteemed astrophysicists have theorised that there is this theoretical multiverse, which contains an infinite number of universes, each with different laws,then the existence of our universe is an inevitability. Since there is no proof of a multiverse, then we have no way of knowing if the theory is true.

So, you can see, that the laws have not got the experts any where in the great theological debate.

Those are highly illogical points, sorry.

1) If there were "intelligent designs", then you would have "life" or other creatures in other planets.

2) Billions of years of evolution. That's a shade long for something intelligent. Why not spontaneous creation? Because evolution is random as well as mutation.

3) All these energy and matter in the whole universe just to create "life" in (what I usually refer to as) a 'ball of nothing' (nee' earth). The earth is so tiny, calling it a blip is an astounding exaggeration. So your god is ineffiecient too? ("Omnipotent, Omniscient, Benevolent" and 'ineffiecient' lol Excellent!).

Since there is no proof of a multiverse, then we have no way of knowing if the theory is true.

There's no proof of god either. Watch, people refer to him as human-shaped. That's because he's patterned to man's likeness as imagined by people.

A number of revered, and esteemed astrophysicists have shown that these laws are so finely-tuned (should they be in the slightest bit different, this wouldn't be here), that it cannot be random, and that there must be/have been a Creator.

Exactly, that's why it is random. The earth is full of freaks. It's all an accident if you will. Random collision of molecules, random chemical reactions fueled by the sun. Life evolved over billions of years.

Can you win a lottery in 50 years if you buy 10 tickets a day? Likely not. If anybody can win a lottery instantly, then it's not random. Fact is, it is random.

If life happened spontaneously, then call me converted, but no, it had to take billions of years in a little planet called earth that is insignicant compared to the rest of the universe. That's random!

[Don Corleone]

Well, I don't know if anybody has made this point, but I don't have the time or the inclination to read through 4 pages of "yes there is", "no there isn't", although the Frag & Aid show is entertaining, as always.

But for strictly selfish reasons, you should find a way to come to grips with a higher being. I'm going to make the Soren Kirkegaard argument. There's only four possible scenarios:

1) There's no God and you're an atheist

2) There's no God but you believed there was

3) There is a God, but you were an atheist.

4) There is a God, and you believed in him.

Of all possible outcomes, only 1 is positive. If you're an atheist, you'll either never know you're right, or you're going to have a lot of explaining to do. If you're a believer, you'll either never know you were wrong, or you're on the good foot coming into the after life.

[Al Khalifah]

What'd be really funny would be if there was an afterlife, but no-one got the right religion... so everyone went to hell apart from that insane guy from Aliens.

[Fragony]

What'd be really funny would be if there was an afterlife, but no-one got the right religion... so everyone went to hell apart from that insane guy from Aliens.

That reminds me of a show by rowan atkinson, where he plays the devil. He calls for the christians: 'sorry the jews were right'

[Al Khalifah]

I'd be fuming if the scientologists were right in the end. Eternal damnation would kind of lose its bad side in such a heaven.

[Don Corleone]

I'm not sure what Scientoligists believe in for an afterlife. And this is why I think you're judged by your own conscience. That's not the same thing as moral relativisim, because in that, as long as you can rationalize your behaviors, they're not immoral. I'm talking about what you held to be right & wrong in your heart of hearts. I cannot imagine a God with any sort of mercy or understanding acting in any other way.

[Duke Malcolm]

Those are highly illogical points, sorry.

Not points, facts.

1) If there were "intelligent designs", then you would have "life" or other creatures in other planets.

2) Billions of years of evolution. That's a shade long for something intelligent. Why not spontaneous creation? Because evolution is random as well as mutation.

3) All these energy and matter in the whole universe just to create "life" in (what I usually refer to as) a 'ball of nothing' (nee' earth). The earth is so tiny, calling it a blip is an astounding exaggeration. So your god is ineffiecient too? ("Omnipotent, Omniscient, Benevolent" and 'ineffiecient' lol Excellent!).

You just contradicted yourself here. Read through points one and three...

There's no proof of god either. Watch, people refer to him as human-shaped. That's because he's patterned to man's likeness as imagined by people.

Read Genesis, or perhaps the whole pentateuch, it all makes good reading. God created man in His own image.

Exactly, that's why it is random. The earth is full of freaks. It's all an accident if you will. Random collision of molecules, random chemical reactions fueled by the sun. Life evolved over billions of years.

Can you win a lottery in 50 years if you buy 10 tickets a day? Likely not. If anybody can win a lottery instantly, then it's not random. Fact is, it is random.

If life happened spontaneously, then call me converted, but no, it had to take billions of years in a little planet called earth that is insignicant compared to the rest of the universe. That's random!

Life may have evolved (note that I am an agnostic, by-the-by) but the laws of science are so precise, that should any one of them have been different, then this universe would not exist. So it can't be random unless there is a multiverse, for which there is as much proof as God. Only then shall the chemical reactions and laws of science be random.

[Don Corleone]

Quietus,

Where did anyone in this thread hold to a terra-centric universe? Of course intelligent life could (and probably does) exist on other planets. Assuming they were advanced enough to be capable of inter-stellar travel, they almost certainly would observe our communications prior to an initial contact, and almost certainly would (rightfully) conclude that the experience would generate global termoil. We're simply not ready for that level of eye-opening. As much as I thought they were the coolest, I cannot believe a species like the Klingons would ever come about... that's a LOT of effort, energy & resources spent, just to go find new people to kill. This is why I don't believe in all of this 'abduction' business, I believe we're under quarantine.

[Al Khalifah]

I'm not sure what Scientoligists believe in for an afterlife. And this is why I think you're judged by your own conscience. That's not the same thing as moral relativisim, because in that, as long as you can rationalize your behaviors, they're not immoral. I'm talking about what you held to be right & wrong in your heart of hearts. I cannot imagine a God with any sort of mercy or understanding acting in any other way.

But then a lot of people who are really good people but judge themselves by too high standards wouldn't be good enough for heaven. For example "I saved 1000 people from burning buildings but there was one little girl I couldn't save and I'll blame myself forever"...
Also you'll have people with really bad moral codes going to paradise. Some people are really really bad people through and through. These people would be rewarded over people who do bad deads occasionally but know they've done wrong.

Personally I quite like the Grim Fandango idea of an afterlife. Anyone who's played the game must surely agree. "The Gate opens, the Gate closes, it does not help."

[LittleGrizzly]

but the laws of science are so precise, that should any one of them have been different, then this universe would not exist. So it can't be random unless there is a multiverse,

i don't understand how the laws of science being precise can't be random without a multiverse ?

[Quietus]

Not points, facts.

Where? Give something concrete, please.

You just contradicted yourself here. Read through points one and three...

Billions of years of evolution vs. Spontaneous creation in a flash. As a human being that is undeniably smart, which do you prefer? If god made that choice of 'billions of years of evolution' over spontaneous creation. Is he being petty or inefficient? There was no plan, it's random.

Read Genesis, or perhaps the whole pentateuch, it all makes good reading. God created man in His own image.

Every single feature of our body resulted from mutation (which is random), there no outright plan or formula. Our features evolved over time, just like the chicken's features evolved over time or any other creature in this planet, even a virus, which by the way is NOT living.

Whichever mutation is favored in an environment is selected for to survive and reproduce, that's all. If trees in a certain island produce only tough seed that is bird food, those who have large enough beaks will strive, those will smaller beaks will be outcompeted and eventually wither.

God did not plan that. That's just evolution and mutation which are both random. Now, if twenty years from now, those trees were all burned out by an accidental lightning and subsequent fire. Then smaller plants that replaced those trees have small seeds that are too tiny to be picked by large beaks. Guess who will strive then? The bird with beaks that can pick.

God has nothing to do with it at all. Just because we are currently at the top of the food chain doesn't mean we will stay there. The dinosaurs used to be the main predators too. Where are they now? Certainly, god didn't create those beast in his image.

Life may have evolved (note that I am an agnostic, by-the-by) but the laws of science are so precise, that should any one of them have been different, then this universe would not exist. So it can't be random unless there is a multiverse, for which there is as much proof as God. Only then shall the chemical reactions and laws of science be random.

What I meant by random is by billions of years of chemical reaction. There's a lot of energy from the sun driving all these chemical reactions. There's no blueprint from the start. We're just an anomaly. An aberration. Evolution is `winging-it`.

[GoreBag]

That reminds me of a show by rowan atkinson, where he plays the devil. He calls for the christians: 'sorry the jews were right'

That was on South Park once. God's chosen religion was Mormonism.

One can also look at the issue of god's existence from a sociological and historical perspective. Religions, as expressions of a culture's norms and beliefs, were undoubtedly shaped after a very long time. However, this leaves every separate culture on the planet with their own Gods and their own forms of orthodoxy. Religions like Islam, Christianity and Judaism are illegitimate in the sense that they do not help reinforce cultural norms by reiterating the beliefs, values and morals of the culture; rather, they are culturally subversive and seek to create their own values and morals. This is ironically another case of creation versus evolution - Paganism evolved, Monotheism was created.

..I know I had a point when I started this rant, but it's gone now..

[Quietus]

Quietus,

Where did anyone in this thread hold to a terra-centric universe? Of course intelligent life could (and probably does) exist on other planets. Assuming they were advanced enough to be capable of inter-stellar travel, they almost certainly would observe our communications prior to an initial contact, and almost certainly would (rightfully) conclude that the experience would generate global termoil. We're simply not ready for that level of eye-opening. As much as I thought they were the coolest, I cannot believe a species like the Klingons would ever come about... that's a LOT of effort, energy & resources spent, just to go find new people to kill. This is why I don't believe in all of this 'abduction' business, I believe we're under quarantine.

I personally believe there are other "living" creatures in other pockets of the universe. however, I do not believe they are anything like use. Our line of evolution is unique and so will their evolution. Heck, not even carbon-based.

Do you know what "intelligent design" means? It means a 'God' designed everything from the start and he knows the final product, which is US. Now that is the dumbest, most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

A being that powerful will opt for spontaneous creation instead. But no, there are no spontaneous creation because there is no god. As a lowly human being, do you use a remote control or do you stand up all the time? snail-mail or e-mail?

What's the purpose of Mars? Venus, Mercury, Pluto? 8 out of 9 in our solar system have no life whatsoever. Where's the "intelligent design"?

[Don Corleone]

I think you're vastly oversimplifying, and there's no need to belittle people who don't subscribe to your theories 100%. Okay, I'm done with this conversation... clearly Quietus already has all the answers and anyone who doesn't agree is ridiculous

[Quietus]

I think you're vastly oversimplifying, and there's no need to belittle people who don't subscribe to your theories 100%. Okay, I'm done with this conversation... clearly Quietus already has all the answers and anyone who doesn't agree is ridiculous

Don Corleone, no, I'm calling the "intelligent design" term (which is the by-word of the moment) ridiculous. Perhaps, you'd like to google it.

No, no, I'm not calling you.

[Duke Malcolm]

Where? Give something concrete, please.

That many astrophysicists believe that there is a Creator, because they believe the laws are so "finely-tuned", that they cannot simply be random.
or
that there is not a Creator, and that there are an infinite number of universes each with different laws, so the existence of this universe is inevitable.
And that there is as much proof for a multiverse, or the lack of God, as there is for an abundance of God

Billions of years of evolution vs. Spontaneous creation in a flash. As a human being that is undeniably smart, which do you prefer? If god made that choice of 'billions of years of evolution' over spontaneous creation. Is he being petty or inefficient? There was no plan, it's random.

To be honest, I prefer Spontaneous creation. I don't like to think that my ancestors used to be apes and lived up trees...
Is there not also the possibility that God created the laws of science, to create the universe as he sees fit? He started the ball rolling, and now it is in motion until it comes to his chosen design? Maybe to God, billions of years pass quickly...

Every single feature of our body resulted from mutation (which is random), there no outright plan or formula. Our features evolved over time, just like the chicken's features evolved over time or any other creature in this planet, even a virus, which by the way is NOT living.

Whichever mutation is favored in an environment is selected for to survive and reproduce, that's all. If trees in a certain island produce only tough seed that is bird food, those who have large enough beaks will strive, those will smaller beaks will be outcompeted and eventually wither.

God did not plan that. That's just evolution and mutation which are both random. Now, if twenty years from now, those trees were all burned out by an accidental lightning and subsequent fire. Then smaller plants that replaced those trees have small seeds that are too tiny to be picked by large beaks. Guess who will strive then? The bird with beaks that can pick.

God has nothing to do with it at all. Just because we are currently at the top of the food chain doesn't mean we will stay there. The dinosaurs used to be the main predators too. Where are they now? Certainly, god didn't create those beast in his image.

No, only man was created in his own image. As I said, read Genesis. The theory of evolution still has not been fully proven, by-the-by. Could it also not be that evolution is God's way of finding the best creature. Perhaps God creates a change whenever He feeld one is necessary, perhaps He kills of species which he doesn't like because they are not suited.

What I meant by random is by billions of years of chemical reaction. There's a lot of energy from the sun driving all these chemical reactions. There's no blueprint from the start. We're just an anomaly. An aberration. Evolution is `winging-it`.

Chemical reactions are not necessarily random, so billions of years' worth of chemical reaction are not necessarily random either.

[Quietus]

That many astrophysicists believe that there is a Creator, because they believe the laws are so "finely-tuned", that they cannot simply be random.
or
that there is not a Creator, and that there are an infinite number of universes each with different laws, so the existence of this universe is inevitable.
And that there is as much proof for a multiverse, or the lack of God, as there is for an abundance of God

It's random because molecules collide randomly.

To be honest, I prefer Spontaneous creation. I don't like to think that my ancestors used to be apes and lived up trees...
Is there not also the possibility that God created the laws of science, to create the universe as he sees fit? He started the ball rolling, and now it is in motion until it comes to his chosen design?

The universe is huge and expanding, the earth is too tiny to be God's plan all along.

Maybe to God, billions of years pass quickly...

You're giving human characteristics to god. Even the way human senses.

No, only man was created in his own image.

No. Every part of our body mutated randomly and evolved slowly.

As I said, read Genesis. The theory of evolution still has not been fully proven, by-the-by.

It's already proven genetically.

Could it also not be that evolution is God's way of finding the best creature.

Survival of the fittest but god has nothing to do with it.

Perhaps God creates a change whenever He feeld one is necessary, perhaps He kills of species which he doesn't like because they are not suited.

All the forces around us are already present. There's no divine hand. If you throw an object in the air, it will keep on moving, unless it is acted upon by another force which is in our instance is gravity.

Chemical reactions are not necessarily random, so billions of years' worth of chemical reaction are not necessarily random either.

Different molecules collide randomly in nature. There's no special collision.

[Hurin_Rules]

Yaaay atheists. This must be one of the few times we're in the majority. Good to be around so many fellow heathens!

[Duke Malcolm]

Right-ho, first off, I don't know where you get half of the stuff you are replying to, such as the forces being present, the molecules colliding, Earth being too tiny, and giving God human characteristics.
Anyhoo, Molecules may appear to collide randomly, but are guided by the endless laws, such as the infamous Laws of Motion, the theories of General and Special relativity (which also include the Laws of Gravity). If one does physics, and sees the equations, and how everything fits together, then it can hardly be sheer randomness that produced this universe. There surely must be either an inevitable combination produced within the multiverse, or a finely-tuned by a Creator. We can predict the motion of molecules, disproving their random movements.

I don't know what that is about a "special collision", and I don't see how molecules appearing to collide randomly has anything to do with the revelations in astrophysics I have pointed out.

And also, it is a popular scientific belief that the survival of the fittest theory is also wrong. Read The Selfish Gene for further information.

[Quietus]

Right-ho, first off, I don't know where you get half of the stuff you are replying to, such as the forces being present, the molecules colliding, Earth being too tiny, and giving God human characteristics.

Which part are you unsure of?

Anyhoo, Molecules may appear to collide randomly, but are guided by the endless laws, such as the infamous Laws of Motion, the theories of General and Special relativity (which also include the Laws of Gravity). If one does physics, and sees the equations, and how everything fits together, then it can hardly be sheer randomness that produced this universe.

That's not what I meant. I meant, all molecules do collide randomly. Elements collide randomly.

There surely must be either an inevitable combination produced within the multiverse, or a finely-tuned by a Creator. We can predict the motion of molecules, disproving their random movements.

What do you mean by multiverse? You have a large number of mass or elements. It's random.

I don't know what that is about a "special collision", and I don't see how molecules appearing to collide randomly has anything to do with the revelations in astrophysics I have pointed out.

Well, "life" as we know it is just a sophiticated set of chemical reaction that has built up over time. If you want to be specific with these revelations, feel free. All I know is elements and molecules collide randomly. Collision is different from binding by the way, if that's what you mean.

And also, it is a popular scientific belief that the survival of the fittest theory is also wrong. Read The Selfish Gene for further information.

Sorry, that's already a mistake. Evolution and survival of the fittest are sound principles. We are the greatest proof to this, we already own the earth!

Can you tell me what the "Selfish Gene" is saying in short?

[PanzerJaeger]

Yaaay atheists. This must be one of the few times we're in the majority. Good to be around so many fellow heathens!

Was there ever any doubt?

[Husar]

Exactly my thoughts about Molecules, Malcolm.
There´s not much in science that seems to be random and even if there is, maybe we just didn´t find the right law. 2000 years ago there was not as much scientific knowldge as today, but nobody said "Everything is random and that proves there is no god". Just because we can´t explain something doesn´t mean there is no explanation at all.