Do you beleave in God(Poll)

[Byzantine Prince]

A number of revered, and esteemed astrophysicists have shown that these laws are so finely-tuned (should they be in the slightest bit different, this wouldn't be here), that it cannot be random, and that there must be/have been a Creator.

Ah yes, and why does it have to be a creator?

Why are these astrophysicists so arogant as to think they figured everything out and everything is in perfect order?

[Duke Malcolm]

Ah yes, and why does it have to be a creator?

Why are these astrophysicists so arogant as to think they figured everything out and everything is in perfect order?

I don't know. I just know that these is one of their reasonings. It seemed silly to me at first, too.

[Big_John]

I don't know. I just know that these is one of their reasonings. It seemed silly to me at first, too.

that's because it is silly. obviously these revered, esteemed astrophysicists can't look at simple probabilities without getting all starry eyed.

[Duke Malcolm]

They have their arguments, but to me, there is as much reason to suggest that there is a Creator as there is to suggest that there is not a Creator, so Agnosticism is the chosen path for me.

[ah_dut]

Ah yes, and why does it have to be a creator?

Why are these astrophysicists so arogant as to think they figured everything out and everything is in perfect order?

Why not I ask? Things in science are goverened by rules are they not?

Evolution is not totally random, neither is anything else...they are governed by the rules of physics or some other rule. Therefore, can not the universe be governed by rules? Our lives are governed by things like the laws of motion and perhaps in the future Quantum Mechanics...I don't presume to understand such laws but they do exist and it is proven...thus is there not order?

Perfect order is in the eye of the beholder...it depends whether you can see the strands in seemingly meaningless data...all the things I learn by reading AS papers and A level papers in physics before GCSE level...nothing

[Mikeus Caesar]

Haha!!!

Non-believers - 44
Believers - 33

I don't believe in God because it doesn't seem logical.

[Byzantine Prince]

Why not I ask? Things in science are goverened by rules are they not?

Evolution is not totally random, neither is anything else...they are governed by the rules of physics or some other rule.

Just because there are rules doesn't make them have order. Evolution is completely random. Just because we think that we have figured out some rules and things that hapen often doesn't mean these rules were made by someone neither does it mean we cannot bend these rules. Just like the man flying. Gravity would have you think it's impossible but there you have it.

[Don Corleone]

Just because there are rules doesn't make them have order. Evolution is completely random. Just because we think that we have figured out some rules and things that hapen often doesn't mean these rules were made by someone neither does it mean we cannot bend these rules. Just like the man flying. Gravity would have you think it's impossible but there you have it.

And it was another set of rules, referred to collectively as 'Bernouli's princple' that made flight possible. What's your point?

The defintion of random, according to my friend Mr. Webster, is 'lacking aim or method, purposeless, haphazard". Defintion 2 "Not unform, of different sizes". Definition 3 "from statistics, of, pertaining to, or characterizing a set of items every member of which has an equal chance of occurring or of occurring with a particular frequency".

Clearly, definition 3 would be the most appropriate in this case, and it does not define evolution. All outcomes are not equally likely, and there are some clearly observable patterns that impact the outcome, such as weather. Just because the outcome is not deterministic doesn't mean it's random.

You guys on the "No God" side need to be careful not to hinge all of your arguments on the "universe is chaotic & random". You certainly should see that the arguments that around an ordered universe and around the existence of God are two independent considerations. I can think of working models for any of the four possible combinations (ordered universe/chaotic & God/no God).

[Byzantine Prince]

Hehe, ok Corleone, I'll bite your argument. Even though I don't agree with it I can see why you are posing it. I guess I didn't make myself clear enough.

Rules are not the same as order. Rules can be bent by other rules that we don't yet know. What we don't know is infinite. Every rule is bendable.

Does that make sense? I think it does.

God has not created rules. There's no indication for that. God's existence is the eyes of most believers comes from some sort of prophet who does a couple of crazy tricks (Jesus turning water into wine etc...) , NOT science.

So we are winning again. May it be that one day God's believers will be extinct and us rational human beings(liberals ) inherit the earth.

[Don Corleone]

After the rapture, when we're all brought home, you're welcome to it. Based on what I've read, you might want to find someplace else to vacate to, however. (And before every jumps me up, that's a joke, I personally don't believe in an 'End of Days'. I take it as an allegory for the end of YOUR days).

You completely missed my point BP. I wasn't offering the argument on the ordered vs. disordered universe as any kind of statement on the existence of God. Quite the contrary, I have several times, including in that post, allowed as how any answer to either question is congrous to any answer to the other.

[LittleGrizzly]

I can think of working models for any of the four possible combinations (ordered universe/chaotic & God/no God).

I agree i don't see why whether the universe is choatic or not has a bearing on whether theres a god ?

[Husar]

Hehe, ok Corleone, I'll bite your argument. Even though I don't agree with it I can see why you are posing it. I guess I didn't make myself clear enough.

Rules are not the same as order. Rules can be bent by other rules that we don't yet know. What we don't know is infinite. Every rule is bendable.

Does that make sense? I think it does.

God has not created rules. There's no indication for that. God's existence is the eyes of most believers comes from some sort of prophet who does a couple of crazy tricks (Jesus turning water into wine etc...) , NOT science.

So we are winning again. May it be that one day God's believers will be extinct and us rational human beings(liberals ) inherit the earth.

Sorry, but you´re not winning anywhere.

You say that believers just follow someone who did some crazy tricks.
And you follow scientists who work with rules, but you said yourself that every rule is bendable. If rules are bendable and scientists work with them, how can you say that science can be believed, maybe all the rules they use are wrong?

You say that religion is based on thoughts or stories that cannot be proven, but the theory about the big bang has not been proven yet as well, that´s why it´s called a theory.
there have been a lot of scientific "proofs" that were later found to be wrong, so how can you say that today´s scientists are right?
You cannot see science as the ultimate source of wisdom.

Don´t get me wrong, I like physics very much, and I´m not saying it´s all wrong, but there are topics where even scientists can only guess and have no proof for what´s going on.


An example from our physics-lessons:

If you have a screen to display positions of incoming photons and then you send single photons through a single hole, one after the other, you will see on the screen that they arrive just as if you would spray paint through that hole.
Now if you send these single photons through two holes, you will get an interference-figure on your screen, even though you sent all photons alone.

Can anyone tell me how a single photon can know if there is just one hole and it can do what it wants or if there are two holes and it has to create the interference-figure?
Well our teacher said that physicians have no explanation for this other than micro-tiles having their own rules we can´t understand.

[Byzantine Prince]

Sorry, but you´re not winning anywhere.

You say that believers just follow someone who did some crazy tricks.
And you follow scientists who work with rules, but you said yourself that every rule is bendable. If rules are bendable and scientists work with them, how can you say that science can be believed, maybe all the rules they use are wrong?

I never said what people should or should not do. What right do you have to judge me on things I didn't say?

You say that religion is based on thoughts or stories that cannot be proven, but the theory about the big bang has not been proven yet as well, that´s why it´s called a theory.

Did I mention any theories such as big bang? NO! I was talking about things like attraction and thermodynamics, not the far out stuff. Again you have no right to judge me on this.

there have been a lot of scientific "proofs" that were later found to be wrong, so how can you say that today´s scientists are right?

I didn't!

You cannot see science as the ultimate source of wisdom.

I don't!

You might not realize this but I don't give a crap about science. I trust philosophy more then any physics. I was simply responding to Don Corleone's silly argument that the world has rules that are now accepted and that therefore god must exist.

Of course like the coward he is he then backed off saying that there was no relation and that he wasn't trying to make any point at all. BS! He was trying to prove exactly that and he failed.

[Papewaio]

An example from our physics-lessons:

If you have a screen to display positions of incoming photons and then you send single photons through a single hole, one after the other, you will see on the screen that they arrive just as if you would spray paint through that hole.
Now if you send these single photons through two holes, you will get an interference-figure on your screen, even though you sent all photons alone.

Can anyone tell me how a single photon can know if there is just one hole and it can do what it wants or if there are two holes and it has to create the interference-figure?
Well our teacher said that physicians have no explanation for this other than micro-tiles having their own rules we can´t understand.

Your 'physics' teacher is a Moron!

wave-particle duality
The inherent contradiction in the way energy behaves. At the turn of the 20th century, it was believed that light was electromagnetic waves and electrons were particles. By the 1930s, it was determined that light behaves as if it were made up of particles (photons) as well as waves, and electrons also behave like waves. This has driven scientists to drink and is one of the most puzzling phenomena in the universe

He should not be teaching physics if he hasn't heard of quantum physics, photoelectric effect, Uncertainty Principle, Schrodingers Equation.

PS Physicians may or may not understand that there is a model called wave-particle duality but Physicists should.

[Physicians = A person licensed to practice medicine; a medical doctor.]