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Thread: 200 reported dead as shooting goes on in Uzbekistan protests

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    Default 200 reported dead as shooting goes on in Uzbekistan protests

    UP TO 200 people were reported yesterday to have been killed and many others injured after security forces fired machineguns into crowds protesting against the authoritarian regime of President Islam Karimov in Uzbekistan.

    The shooting began on Friday night and continued yesterday in the eastern city of Andizhan as forces loyal to Karimov tried to prevent an uprising similar to those that have ousted the leaders of three other former Soviet republics in the past two years.

    “Tell the world that what is happening is terrible. They are executing us — unarmed civilian people,” said Lutfulo Shamsutdinov, a human rights activist who claimed to have seen about 200 bodies being loaded onto lorries and a bus in the city centre.

    Last night 60 bodies were counted at a mortuary in Andizhan. Many others were said to have been taken away by relatives and there were suggestions that some had been driven out of the city in an attempt to conceal the scale of the apparent massacre.

    A crowd of 1,500 people opposed to Karimov gathered defiantly around a further 15 bodies lying in one of the main squares after a day of sporadic gunfire. One opposition figure claimed that the death toll could eventually reach 500. Hundreds of Uzbeks fleeing the country later stormed government buildings in the border village of Korasuv 30 miles east of Andizhan, attacking troops and setting fire to cars.

    Several British tennis stars taking part in a tournament in Andizhan were caught up in the fighting. Richard Bloomfield, David Sherwood, Arvind Parmar and Jamie Delgado were among seven British tennis players who escaped from the city yesterday under armed guard.

    The violence began late last week when a large group of militants attacked a police station, seizing a number of weapons. The armed insurgents then stormed a prison, freeing 23 men who were on trial accused of religious extremism and 2,000 other prisoners.

    As demonstrators took to the streets to demand Karimov’s resignation, a government building was seized and several police officers were held hostage. Heavy street fighting broke out and the military was called in to quash the protests.

    “The soldiers were shooting wounded people dead, finishing them off in the street. Some were children,” said Azim Karimov, who was injured as he searched for his two children.

    “How can this be? Don’t they have children of their own? What the hell is our president thinking? How can he order to shoot at his own people?”

    The president, who has been in power since 1989 and is regarded in Washington as an ally in the war on terror, was said to have travelled to Andizhan when the trouble began but returned to Tashkent, the capital, after six hours.

    He denied that orders had been given to shoot protesters and blamed the violence on Hizb ut-Tahrir, an outlawed Islamic group. “Nobody ordered troops to fire at them,” Karimov told a press conference. He acknowledged that 10 soldiers and “many more” protesters had been killed.

    Witnesses said that on Friday 1,500 people gathered outside a cinema where some of the worst bloodshed ensued.

    “Among them were some 20 armed people. The rest were unarmed, mainly children and young people,” said Shamsutdinov. “The security forces fired into the crowd from an armoured personnel carrier cannon. Dozens were killed on the spot. The building was destroyed.”

    One unnamed witness described how a taxi in which he was a passenger was hit by the army in the city centre.

    “A boy sitting next to me was hit in the head,” he said. “There was blood everywhere. I took him myself to the hospital where he is now dying.”

    There were unconfirmed reports that several civilians were killed after militants who had barricaded themselves in a government building used them as human shields.

    Yesterday the impoverished industrial city was almost sealed off as telephone links were blocked. A government broadcast warned that “all journalists and visitors should leave within 30 minutes”.

    The Uzbek authorities also jammed foreign television channels inside the country as Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan closed their borders.

    The White House called for restraint on both sides. Karimov, a Soviet-era Communist party boss, has been allied with President George W Bush since giving permission for US forces to launch operations from Uzbekistan against the Taliban regime in Afghanistan.

    The president said his troops had been forced to shoot at demonstrators to put down an uprising. He said infiltrators from Kyrgyzstan were among the organisers of the violence and the authorities had intercepted telephone calls to Afghanistan from those taking part.

    Attempts to negotiate with the militants had failed, he said, because their ultimate goal was to create an Islamic state.

    In March protests in Kyrgyzstan culminated in the storming of the presidential building. President Askar Akayev fled the country and later resigned. Fearing the same fate, Karimov stepped up his campaign against suspected Islamic militants.

    With 26m people, Uzbekistan is the most populous of the former Soviet central Asian republics. Analysts believe turmoil there could spread to other countries.

    “The militants had hoped that the chaos we saw in Kyrgyzstan would help them,” said Karimov. “But Uzbekistan is different and our people’s goals are different from the misery of the Kyrgyz people.”

    Craig Murray, the former British ambassador, warned of a risk of further bloodshed in Uzbekistan in the days ahead. “I have felt for some time this sort of protest was about to happen and these events have confirmed those fears,” he said yesterday.

    “I have spoken this morning to several friends in Tashkent and it perhaps reflects the clampdown on the media that they are unaware of what is happening. It is potentially very dangerous.”
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...612806,00.html

  2. #2
    |LGA.3rd|General Clausewitz Member Kaiser of Arabia's Avatar
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    Default Re: 200 reported dead as shooting goes on in Uzbekistan protests

    wait the presdien'ts first name is Islam?

    Why do you hate Freedom?
    The US is marching backward to the values of Michael Stivic.

  3. #3

    Default Re: 200 reported dead as shooting goes on in Uzbekistan protests

    The White House called for restraint on both sides. Karimov, a Soviet-era Communist party boss, has been allied with President George W Bush since giving permission for US forces to launch operations from Uzbekistan against the Taliban regime in Afghanistan.

    He's sure cashing in his political chips fast.. too bad we need him.

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    Scruffy Looking Nerf Herder Member Steppe Merc's Avatar
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    Default Re: 200 reported dead as shooting goes on in Uzbekistan protests

    He's a murdering bastard, and you still want to use him? Use countries that aren't total assholes! And Uzbekistan? How much help can they really give?

    We ought to be helping the rebels or whatever you want to call them, or at very least take the government off of our "friends list". It's obviously very corrupt, and not the sort of people we should be allying with.

    "But if you should fall you fall alone,
    If you should stand then who's to guide you?
    If I knew the way I would take you home."
    Grateful Dead, "Ripple"

  5. #5

    Default Re: 200 reported dead as shooting goes on in Uzbekistan protests

    Look at the location of his country. We need him much in the same way we need Pakistan.

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    Member Member bmolsson's Avatar
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    Default Re: 200 reported dead as shooting goes on in Uzbekistan protests

    Who needs enemies with allies like this....

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    Scruffy Looking Nerf Herder Member Steppe Merc's Avatar
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    Default Re: 200 reported dead as shooting goes on in Uzbekistan protests

    Exactly. If we tolerate this, we ought to ally ourselves with everyone. A lot easier that way...
    And to think we still won't trade with Cuba, but just gave this guy a warning because we need him...

    "But if you should fall you fall alone,
    If you should stand then who's to guide you?
    If I knew the way I would take you home."
    Grateful Dead, "Ripple"

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    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: 200 reported dead as shooting goes on in Uzbekistan protests

    Quote Originally Posted by Steppe Merc
    Exactly. If we tolerate this, we ought to ally ourselves with everyone. A lot easier that way...
    And to think we still won't trade with Cuba, but just gave this guy a warning because we need him...

    i totally disagree with this statement
    he is a temporary ally

    we have allies like this with the hope that we can retain the power to correct these types of regimes over a long period of time

    by picking fights, not alienating everyone at the same time
    and eventually encouraging change - we are able to strategically isolate enemies and put off other fights

    it is much easier for us to sway allies, anyway
    "That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
    -Eric "George Orwell" Blair

    "If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
    (Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
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    Scruffy Looking Nerf Herder Member Steppe Merc's Avatar
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    Default Re: 200 reported dead as shooting goes on in Uzbekistan protests

    But how can we claim to be the moral center of the world, and be respected on our actions against bad people when we support just as bad people? I mean, between Russia, Uzbekistan, Arabia, Pakistan, and a whole bunch of others, it's just as bad as the people we've declared as bad guys.

    "But if you should fall you fall alone,
    If you should stand then who's to guide you?
    If I knew the way I would take you home."
    Grateful Dead, "Ripple"

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    Ambiguous Member Byzantine Prince's Avatar
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    Default Re: 200 reported dead as shooting goes on in Uzbekistan protests

    Quote Originally Posted by Steppe Merc
    But how can we claim to be the moral center of the world
    I doubt anyone considers America the moral center of the world(now or ever).

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    Scruffy Looking Nerf Herder Member Steppe Merc's Avatar
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    Default Re: 200 reported dead as shooting goes on in Uzbekistan protests

    My point was what right do we have to tell others what is right and wrong when we support people who are most deffinetly doing things wrong?

    "But if you should fall you fall alone,
    If you should stand then who's to guide you?
    If I knew the way I would take you home."
    Grateful Dead, "Ripple"

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    Patriot Member IliaDN's Avatar
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    Default Re: 200 reported dead as shooting goes on in Uzbekistan protests

    Well it is not bad it is just ordinary for a country to take any actions that will lead the state the profitable way.
    Actually USSR wanted the same thing ( in my opinion ) that USA want now - global dominance ( at least economical ).

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    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: 200 reported dead as shooting goes on in Uzbekistan protests

    Quote Originally Posted by Steppe Merc
    But how can we claim to be the moral center of the world, and be respected on our actions against bad people when we support just as bad people? I mean, between Russia, Uzbekistan, Arabia, Pakistan, and a whole bunch of others, it's just as bad as the people we've declared as bad guys.

    who ever said that he was "a good guy"?

    are you saying that the only way to be a good country is to alienate yourself entirely?

    or rather that we should be allies with everyone?

    you honestly dont understand the concept of picking your battles?

    can you propose an alternative to the way in which we handle our touchy aliances? should we support coups of every government around the world and be edged out of competition in their spheres? eventually that would lead to less power to alter the situations in troubled parts of the world

    im interested in hearing alternatives
    "That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
    -Eric "George Orwell" Blair

    "If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
    (Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
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    Things Change Member JAG's Avatar
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    Default Re: 200 reported dead as shooting goes on in Uzbekistan protests

    Steppe you are just realising your countries foreign policy has no morals other than greed and self preservation?! Wow take your time. It is the reason the world doesn't believe Iraq is for the good of the Irai people in 'getting rid of a tyrant', because that is simply not how the US works - me, me, me.

    Read a book by Chomsky and have your eyes opened.
    GARCIN: I "dreamt," you say. It was no dream. When I chose the hardest path, I made my choice deliberately. A man is what he wills himself to be.
    INEZ: Prove it. Prove it was no dream. It's what one does, and nothing else, that shows the stuff one's made of.
    GARCIN: I died too soon. I wasn't allowed time to - to do my deeds.
    INEZ: One always dies too soon - or too late. And yet one's whole life is complete at that moment, with a line drawn neatly under it, ready for the summing up. You are - your life, and nothing else.

    Jean Paul Sartre - No Exit 1944

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    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: 200 reported dead as shooting goes on in Uzbekistan protests

    Quote Originally Posted by JAG
    Read a book by Chomsky and have your eyes opened.

    do yourself a favor and do just that
    and read ALOT of it

    i came to some of my conclusions from reading some of his ideas

    and honestly, out of his madness, there are many lessons
    "That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
    -Eric "George Orwell" Blair

    "If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
    (Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

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    Evil Sadist Member discovery1's Avatar
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    Default Re: 200 reported dead as shooting goes on in Uzbekistan protests


    Read a book by Chomsky and have your eyes opened.
    Media Control: He talks to you like you're a child. Don't bother with that work. Just be cynical. Can't comment on other works.

    *sighs* It wouldn't be so bad(not by much though) if W didn't go on and on about the war against tyrrany. Maybe he plans to stab our current allies in the back down the road. Oh so many deserve it.


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    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: 200 reported dead as shooting goes on in Uzbekistan protests

    Quote Originally Posted by discovery1
    Maybe he plans to stab our current allies in the back down the road. Oh so many deserve it.
    we do take them to task down the road, but in a way that "allies" take one another to task
    "That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
    -Eric "George Orwell" Blair

    "If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
    (Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

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    |LGA.3rd|General Clausewitz Member Kaiser of Arabia's Avatar
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    Default Re: 200 reported dead as shooting goes on in Uzbekistan protests

    Quote Originally Posted by JAG
    Steppe you are just realising your countries foreign policy has no morals other than greed and self preservation?! Wow take your time. It is the reason the world doesn't believe Iraq is for the good of the Irai people in 'getting rid of a tyrant', because that is simply not how the US works - me, me, me.

    Read a book by Chomsky and have your eyes opened.
    Your nation wouldn't be half of what it is without our nation, so maybe you should reassess your opinions of the world.

    Why do you hate Freedom?
    The US is marching backward to the values of Michael Stivic.

  19. #19

    Default Re: 200 reported dead as shooting goes on in Uzbekistan protests

    Jag is acting as though doing things for your country's own interests and doing things for another country's interests are mutually exclusive actions.

    Did Chomsky teach you that?

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    Ambiguous Member Byzantine Prince's Avatar
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    Default Re: 200 reported dead as shooting goes on in Uzbekistan protests

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiser of Arabia
    Your nation wouldn't be half of what it is without our nation, so maybe you should reassess your opinions of the world.
    The UK would be huge without your nation as a separate entity.

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    Things Change Member JAG's Avatar
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    Default Re: 200 reported dead as shooting goes on in Uzbekistan protests

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiser of Arabia
    Your nation wouldn't be half of what it is without our nation, so maybe you should reassess your opinions of the world.
    And your nation wouldn't exist if it wasn't for mine. Need we continue this pathetic debate Capo?

    Jag is acting as though doing things for your country's own interests and doing things for another country's interests are mutually exclusive actions.

    Did Chomsky teach you that?
    They are not mutually exclusive no, but in reality they are. What it means is that it is just co incidential if it benefits other countries and if it benefits the US to renegade on certain aspects even though they will mess another country up, they will do it. In the long run it is mutually exclusive.

    Also I am not even saying the US position is rare, most countries look after #1 - that being themselves - but unfortunately the US like to kid themselves they are the holiest of the holy and are morally superior because they look after others etc, etc. Which is bollocks. Other countries at least accept they are only out for themselves, the US likes to pretend and kiss their own arses, which is very annoying.
    GARCIN: I "dreamt," you say. It was no dream. When I chose the hardest path, I made my choice deliberately. A man is what he wills himself to be.
    INEZ: Prove it. Prove it was no dream. It's what one does, and nothing else, that shows the stuff one's made of.
    GARCIN: I died too soon. I wasn't allowed time to - to do my deeds.
    INEZ: One always dies too soon - or too late. And yet one's whole life is complete at that moment, with a line drawn neatly under it, ready for the summing up. You are - your life, and nothing else.

    Jean Paul Sartre - No Exit 1944

  22. #22
    Scruffy Looking Nerf Herder Member Steppe Merc's Avatar
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    Default Re: 200 reported dead as shooting goes on in Uzbekistan protests

    Steppe you are just realising your countries foreign policy has no morals other than greed and self preservation?! Wow take your time. It is the reason the world doesn't believe Iraq is for the good of the Irai people in 'getting rid of a tyrant', because that is simply not how the US works - me, me, me.
    Of course I have realized that, but I still don't understand how it can be justified. And you are correct, the US supporting countries like this is why no one believes the US on its reasons, whether justified or not.

    Jag is acting as though doing things for your country's own interests and doing things for another country's interests are mutually exclusive actions.
    Perhaps that is correct, but it's what people think about it that often is all that matters. Bush may be doing this out of the goodness of his heart, but no one will believe that when he is buddies with Putin and this fellow, and a whole bunch of others.

    who ever said that he was "a good guy"?

    are you saying that the only way to be a good country is to alienate yourself entirely?

    or rather that we should be allies with everyone?

    you honestly dont understand the concept of picking your battles?

    can you propose an alternative to the way in which we handle our touchy aliances? should we support coups of every government around the world and be edged out of competition in their spheres? eventually that would lead to less power to alter the situations in troubled parts of the world

    im interested in hearing alternatives
    My point was that we can't expect people to believe us about how we are helping one country's people, while we are supporting just as bad people.
    We either can take the high ground everytime, or we can't. It's hypocritical to expect people to listen to us about what is right or wrong when we only will take actions against what is wrong when it serves us.

    "But if you should fall you fall alone,
    If you should stand then who's to guide you?
    If I knew the way I would take you home."
    Grateful Dead, "Ripple"

  23. #23

    Default Re: 200 reported dead as shooting goes on in Uzbekistan protests

    They are not mutually exclusive no, but in reality they are. What it means is that it is just co incidential if it benefits other countries and if it benefits the US to renegade on certain aspects even though they will mess another country up, they will do it. In the long run it is mutually exclusive.

    So you dont think President Bush and his team could have sat down and decided that taking out Saddam would be good for both America and the Iraqi people? Its only possible to think of the interests of the US or Iraq?

    Also I am not even saying the US position is rare, most countries look after #1 - that being themselves - but unfortunately the US like to kid themselves they are the holiest of the holy and are morally superior because they look after others etc, etc. Which is bollocks. Other countries at least accept they are only out for themselves, the US likes to pretend and kiss their own arses, which is very annoying.

    Who says america is morally superior to the others? Your opinion shows your liberal mentality. Simply pointing out that Iraq, for example, shouldnt have a brutal dictator isnt putting America morally above anyone, its common sense.

    Also, America spent countless billions and hundreds of thousands of lives helping other people. If americans shouldnt be proud of that, you should at least acknowledge it.

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    |LGA.3rd|General Clausewitz Member Kaiser of Arabia's Avatar
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    Default Re: 200 reported dead as shooting goes on in Uzbekistan protests

    Quote Originally Posted by JAG
    And your nation wouldn't exist if it wasn't for mine. Need we continue this pathetic debate Capo?
    I'd take my chances. I hate english, such a simple and boring language.

    Anyway, we may ally with dictators, so what? We'll get around to them soon. We only have 3.1 million men employed in our military and our retarted pentagon wants to shrink that, we cant occupy every dicatiorship. We should return the draft (i'm exempt for about 10 different reasons)

    Why do you hate Freedom?
    The US is marching backward to the values of Michael Stivic.

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    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: 200 reported dead as shooting goes on in Uzbekistan protests

    IMDHO

    Is it in the interests of the USA to support a country that has a despotic regime?

    So the all powerful US needs to ally with such a power?

    Don't you think the oppressed people of this nation are going to turn against its leaders and those who support them?

    Would it not now be morally just for the oppressed to strike out at their oppressors with the same scope (women and children)?

    So in turn isn't this justifying an attack against the women and children of the oppressors by the oppressed?
    Last edited by Papewaio; 05-16-2005 at 05:49. Reason: Spelling...
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    Member Member bmolsson's Avatar
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    Default Re: 200 reported dead as shooting goes on in Uzbekistan protests

    It's a tough nut to crack, but I am sure that CIA can get the blame later.....

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    Master of useless knowledge Senior Member Kitten Shooting Champion, Eskiv Champion Ironside's Avatar
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    Default Re: 200 reported dead as shooting goes on in Uzbekistan protests

    (i'm exempt for about 10 different reasons)
    List them
    We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?

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    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: 200 reported dead as shooting goes on in Uzbekistan protests

    Not for nothing, but other than the word of the rebels, does anyone KNOW that this guy is a murdering thug? I honestly don't know much about him, but it looks to me like you're all jumping to conclusions that the protestors are automatically right. What's not in debate is that they stormed an armory, armed themselves, and then overran a police station to break some people out. I'm not saying that they're wrong, but that isn't Ghandi & MLK over there....
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
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  29. #29
    Master of useless knowledge Senior Member Kitten Shooting Champion, Eskiv Champion Ironside's Avatar
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    Default Re: 200 reported dead as shooting goes on in Uzbekistan protests

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    Not for nothing, but other than the word of the rebels, does anyone KNOW that this guy is a murdering thug? I honestly don't know much about him, but it looks to me like you're all jumping to conclusions that the protestors are automatically right. What's not in debate is that they stormed an armory, armed themselves, and then overran a police station to break some people out. I'm not saying that they're wrong, but that isn't Ghandi & MLK over there....
    Is the Human Right Watch good enough for you?

    HRW Uzbekistan

    The US has cut the aid to Uzbekistan in July 2004 for the human right issue BTW.
    We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?

    Project PYRRHO, Specimen 46, Vat 7
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    Scandinavian and loving it Member Lazul's Avatar
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    Default Re: 200 reported dead as shooting goes on in Uzbekistan protests

    hmm how pathetic of you "bushites" to try and defend the situation. Have to say that this situation proves that war-corporatism is the active system.

    watch = http://www.knife-party.net/flash/barry.html
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