Newsweek Debacle

[Gawain of Orkeny]

the american media hate america and are working with the islamic militants...ill leave this for the tin foil hat crew...

Its been apparent to me all along. Its sells papers and hurts conservatives. Its a win win situtation. How else do you explain it. Bye the way I put you in the same boat as the liberal media you love to quote so much. You and those like you do more to help the terrorists than Zarqwai himself. How many times have a said those who agree with you are their only hope of winning. They count on you and you and the press never let them down.

[LittleGrizzly]

Its been apparent to me all along. Its sells papers and hurts conservatives. Its a win win situtation. How else do you explain it. Bye the way I put you in the same boat as the liberal media you love to quote so much. You and those like you do more to help the terrorists than Zarqwai himself. How many times have a said those who agree with you are their only hope of winning. They count on you and you and the press never let them down.

ahh yes, and i think your side helps the terrorists more by supporting things like the iraq war and gauntanamo bay.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

ahh yes, and i think your side helps the terrorists more by supporting things like the iraq war and gauntanamo bay.

Yes we support then by fightig and killing them. Great logic you have there. Cant we all just get along

[LittleGrizzly]

Yes we support then by fightig and killing them.

the Iraqi army was working for AQ ? your not really fighting or killing them in gauntanamo bay creating a whole load of bad pr though..

[Gawain of Orkeny]

the Iraqi army was working for AQ

Who are we killing there now?

your not really fighting or killing them in gauntanamo bay creating a whole load of bad pr though..

No you and the press are. Heres more if you can stomach the truth. This should be required listening for all conservatives.

LINK

[LittleGrizzly]

Who are we killing there now?

the Iraqi insurgency which im guessing you assume is mostly AQ ?

No you and the press are.

well you couldn't have bad pr because of gauntanamo bay without there being a gauntamano bay

[PanzerJaeger]

But to me, PJ was just sort of saying "Well, of course they would say bad things and lie, because they were to jail."

Please read what Adrian wrote. He claims that allegations made by people who have a vested interest in making the place look bad should be taken as proof.

Now do you really think that if you had spent 3 years in Gitmo, whether you were guilty or innocent, and someone gave you the opportunity to defame the place you wouldnt take it? I doubt that.

I am not even questioning the truthfulness of the detainees as much as i am questioning Adrian's idiotic assertion that their claims were "proof".

Proof where? In court? I seriously doubt such a conflict of interest would stand up in any court.

[Steppe Merc]

OK, good point. I took it out of context, sorry.

This is really the other side of this issue. I'm starting to agree with those who say that while Newsweek should get its stories straight, they can't be blamed for the reaction of psychopathic, 7th century cockroaches.

Not all of them were Taliban that were protesting.

[Paul Peru]

Please read what Adrian wrote. He claims that allegations made by people who have a vested interest in making the place look bad should be taken as proof.

Like that Chalabi fellow a couple of years ago?

[LittleGrizzly]

Now do you really think that if you had spent 3 years in Gitmo, whether you were guilty or innocent, and someone gave you the opportunity to defame the place you wouldnt take it? I doubt that.

I bet thats what happened with saddam, people get sent to jail and they make nice mr saddam look this evil guy claiming all this torture was happening to them

[Adrian II]

I bet thats what happened with saddam, people get sent to jail and they make nice mr saddam look this evil guy claiming all this torture was happening to them

LOL! So all those stories about Saddams' torture chambers come from his ex-detainees, huh?
Liars to a tee.

[PanzerJaeger]

LOL! So all those stories about Saddams' torture chambers come from his ex-detainees, huh?
Liars to a tee.

Oh and the US soldiers who found them.

[Goofball]

The Taliban, who blew up priceless Giant Budda statues, are upset because they heard a book got thrown in a toilet.

The Taliban, who fight from mosques regularly, are upset because they heard a book got thrown in a toilet.

Two very well-made points. And please don't think that this sort of hypocrisy is lost on those of us on the left, because it's not.

But the problem is not with the Taliban, or other extremists. Those are hearts and minds that America has no chance of winning, so flushing a book down a toilet really makes no difference there. The problem with the book flushing is that it gives the Taliban ammo to stir up hatred in the rest of the more moderate population.

[LittleGrizzly]

Oh and the US soldiers who found them.

i think we've come to a consenus there is no torture or mistreatment of detainees

[Adrian II]

The problem with the book flushing is that it gives the Taliban ammo to stir up hatred in the rest of the more moderate population.

Yup, they've found a propaganda theme that reverberates throughout the muslim world because it's not a 'political', but a purely religious issue. Maybe if the Pentagon had demonstrated the same sort of outrage over the Abu Ghraib incidents right from the start, instead of waiting till the truth came out despite its efforts to play them down, the ground wouldn't have been so fertile for these groups. After killing over two dozen detainees, wrapping one in an Israeli flag, telling others to pray so they could be kicked in the back of the head, forcing them to masturbate and smearing them with 'menstruation' blood -- practises that remind one of the SA concentration camps in 1930's Germany -- the U.S. shouldn't be surprised at the ease with which this report brought people out onto the streets. Oh, and the problem won't just disappear if we call the demonstrators 7th century psychopaths.

[Ser Clegane]

Here is an article from the online version of the German newsmagazine "Der Spiegel" that fits quite well into this thread (including the headline ):

The Newsweek Debacle

I first thought that the article was a bit one-sided but the end evens that out a bit, IMO

[Redleg]

Yup, they've found a propaganda theme that reverberates throughout the muslim world because it's not a 'political', but a purely religious issue. Maybe if the Pentagon had demonstrated the same sort of outrage over the Abu Ghraib incidents right from the start, instead of waiting till the truth came out despite its efforts to play them down, the ground wouldn't have been so fertile for these groups. After killing over two dozen detainees, wrapping one in an Israeli flag, telling others to pray so they could be kicked in the back of the head, forcing them to masturbate and smearing them with 'menstruation' blood -- practises that remind one of the SA concentration camps in 1930's Germany -- the U.S. shouldn't be surprised at the ease with which this report brought people out onto the streets. Oh, and the problem won't just disappear if we call the demonstrators 7th century psychopaths.

And remember the problem is not helped when irresponsible journalists publish a story that has not been adequately checked to insure it is accurate. However I guess for some of you its easier to excuse bad behavior or actions by pointing out other bad behavior.

Hell I could publish a story that all muslims in the middle-east are fanatics and want to cut the heads off of Ameicans from just one little story and an examble from the current and past situations in the Middle-East - and many would believe it. However is that responsible and ethical journalism? From what you and Goofball have stated so far in this thread would lead me to conclude that you feel that it is.

Edit: And by the way Adrian and Goofball if I was to write such an article - I would be just as wrong as the authors of the Newsweek article. Because it would not be a news report based upon factual evidence that has been verified - but would be nothing more then an editorial. And this editorial has been done in some of the worst rags here in the states. However it seems some are willing to accept it as valid not only in countries where I expect to see such emotional reactions - but even in Ser Clegane's article refers to such editorialized garbage as being accepted as real news in Europe.

The messiness of the saga -- and the fact that no one really knows what the truth is -- is disheartening. Especially given the fact that people died over what was written. And, as an editorial in Tuesday's Jordan Times rightly insists, there is, in this post-Abu Ghraib era, a "credibility deficit." In other words, the paper implies, America has already blown its image as a benevolent and sensitive conquerer. "Even an ordinary illiterate peasant understands, that Newsweek's apology was a decision by America to save itself," the paper says, quoting an Afghani Muslim cleric. "It comes because of American (administration) pressure."

[Redleg]

And now for a rant - concerning the methods used by the authors of this article and now the follow-up news articles coming from Europe and else where, coupled with the justifing and excusing scenerio's painted by some members of this forum.

If I was to go and state -

Given the nature of the muslim in the Middle-East if an American or other Western is taken hostage by such individuals - they will end up on a websight and have their head seperated from their shoulders in the name of Allah because we are infidels and worthly of nothing but contempt and death because of our government's actions.

Futhermore this stance of Muslim hatered for America is futher supported by the governments of Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, and Iran given that their leaders do not condemn these actions outright - nor do they activitly pursue individuals that committ such crimes. These nations allow the fanatical muslim clerics to continue to preach hate toward the west, and activitly encourage young men to go to Iraq to fight against the Americans. A leaked document from an unnamed source within the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia confirms this secert agenda of the Saudi Arabia governement.

There is futher evidence of this with a known Criminal and terrorist killer who has recently recieved medical aid from a Syrian hospital under the watchful eyes of a government offical, this story was leaked from an un-named source within the Syrian Government.

One can only conclude from such evidence that the past behavior of these muslims means that given the chance - any muslim from the Middle-East is more then willing to kill any western individuals because we are not muslim.

If you think I believe any of the crap I just wrote based upon hearsay and conjucture - then I can see exactly why you believe such shoddy reporting as what Newsweek reported with their story of descrection of the Koran in Gitmo.

[PanzerJaeger]

The problem with the book flushing is that it gives the Taliban ammo to stir up hatred in the rest of the more moderate population.

Theres another problem as well. It didnt happen.

[Ser Clegane]

but even in Ser Clegane's article refers to such editorialized garbage as being accepted as real news in Europe.

I am not quite sure were you get that message from, Redleg.

How did you get the impression that "editorial garbage" is accepted as "real news"?

At least the part of the article you quote clearly refers to an "editorial" when quoting from the Jordan Times and it seems pretty clear that they are presenting "opinions" not "facts".

[Redleg]

I am not quite sure were you get that message from, Redleg.

How did you get the impression that "editorial garbage" is accepted as "real news"?

At least the part of the article you quote clearly refers to an "editorial" when quoting from the Jordan Times and it seems pretty clear that they are presenting "opinions" not "facts".

Just from reading the whole article from the website. Its an editorial story - however it seems from reading it and the location without mentioning that its an editorial - that they are publishing it as news.

[Ser Clegane]

Just from reading the whole article from the website. Its an editorial story - however it seems from reading it and the location without mentioning that its an editorial - that they are publishing it as news.

If an article starts with

Something is wrong when respected news agencies become the makers, rather than the reporters, of news.

it seems pretty clear to me that it has quite an editorial character and that opinions of the author ought to be expected.
Also, if I am not missing something, there is no statement at all on the English overview page that there are any "news" to be expected.

[Redleg]

If an article starts with

it seems pretty clear to me that it has quite an editorial character and that opinions of the author ought to be expected.
Also, if I am not missing something, there is no statement at all on the English overview page that there are any "news" to be expected.

I could be missing it because of the way it is written - and the fact that its not mentioned as a editorial. Most articles that are written in news mags that are editorials state that they are an editorial in the heading or at the end of the article. This one does not. Neither does the overview page state that its an editorial.

My assumption is that the magizine is a news magizine not an editorial magizine only.

[Proletariat]

But the problem is not with the Taliban, or other extremists. Those are hearts and minds that America has no chance of winning, so flushing a book down a toilet really makes no difference there. The problem with the book flushing is that it gives the Taliban ammo to stir up hatred in the rest of the more moderate population.

I do see your point, although I think your absolving them a bit too much by saying the extremists are not the problem.

I don't think America has been in a position to win any hearts and minds over there ever since they stuck up for Israel. We're just two countries used to deflect attention from their own corrupt leaders. We didn't win a damn bit of good will in Bosnia or with tsunami aid or anything else we've done when we've been on the side of Muslims. Oh well.

Oh, and the problem won't just disappear if we call the demonstrators 7th century psychopaths.

No, it will go away when we realise America is where Confusion and Superstition Reign.

Maybe if the Pentagon had demonstrated the same sort of outrage over the Abu Ghraib incidents right from the start, instead of waiting till the truth came out despite its efforts to play them down, the ground wouldn't have been so fertile for these groups.

Nice. So Soldiers should be Guilty Until Proven Otherwise but extremist detainees should all get a visit from a lawyer.

[Proletariat]

I think I'll have a conversation with myself, since anytime I've put thought into a post on this thread it gets drowned out by 13 posts of nit picking.

I just can't believe that the story made so many people go crazy. Wow.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised when some lunatics go crazy b/c the book that tells them how to live their lives is flushed down the toilet.

If you were a protestant in 1640 England you would be pretty upset if something similar happened to the bible. That's the analogy.

Would we allow any Christian to get away with this excuse? It's the 21st century. We know better, they could know better if they wanted to. But, they don't.

You're speaking as a person who's part of a society that has gone through the Reformation and the Enlightenment. And even though you're a big religious person, you accept the fundamental tenets of tolerance and people-centric thought that provide the ideological underpinnings of this society.

Most muslim countries -especially in Pakistan and Afghanistan- are societies that haven't gone through the reformation and the enlightenment. God has a literal presence in most people's lives and in their thinking and it's not an accident that there's always a "GOd Willing" or "Praise God" in virtually everything that's written.

These are God-centric societies and disputes over minor detail of dogma are important.

Obviously, I think they re wrong and out of their minds, but I also understand that they have different conceptions of the world, while the historical process that would allow these societies to reach a level that's close to ours is a long and arduous one.

And yes, comparing contemporary Muslim societies with 1640 -perhaps even 1550- England is very apt if one wants to understand what's going on there.

No, it's not. 1550s England had no Enlightenment to model itself after. 21st Century Muslims do. Yet they ignore it. This is why the Iraq invasion was so necessary -- drag them kicking and screaming into the modern world. No matter what the cost of doing so in this decade, it far dwarfs the cost that would come due in the form of a suitcase nuke in next decade if the cause was now foresaken in the name of a misidentified and false "peace."

There was no "peace" in the Middle East. They were already at war with us, just as Germany was already at war with the rest of Europe in 1936. George Bush, unlike Bill Clinton, was willing to recognize this.

You say that because you haven't studied how difficult it is for a country to model itself after another. Models aren't simply copied. They are brought over, fought over, rejected, brought back in again until they are assimilated into a peculiar hybrid.

No country has managed to replicate enlightenment and its institutions outside its cultural milieue in Western Europe and the US. Sure, many countries have nominal institutions of democracy and the free market but there's something missing which make these societies not quite right. It's not the same, because you can replicate the forms, but you can't replicate the historical development that gave birth to the prototype. See Latin America and its struggles with authoritarianism and the capitalist system for example. They know what to copy, but they ve still mangled it.

Most importantly, societies aren't a singular human being to make an easy choice of a prepackaged option. They are diverse and multifaceted with many interests and trends fighting against each other trying to impose their vision.

Also if you notice, the western values most Arab countries adopted were nationalism and socialism . That's what the Baath parties and Nasserism is. Granted, they now seem either failed (socialism) or passe (nationalism) but at the time they were adopted they had a very strong intellectual appeal.

It's these children of western thought that the radical muslims are fighting against.

Somehow, someway, muslim societies need to get through their reformation and their enlightenment, but it's hard. It took 4 or 5 centuries for Europe to do it and it was partly a happy accident.

Uh... ...you guys DO realize that without the enlightened Islam of the time of the Dark Ages, while Europe was under a cloud of Roman Catholic suppression and repression, which kept alive ancient learning from Greece and earlier, there would have been no Enlightenment and no Reformation....don't you?

The Enlightenment was built on knowledge preserved through the European Dark Ages by Islam, especially in Moorish Spain. Our science is built on their work. Furthermore, the spiritual impulses which eventually led to the Reformation owe a lot to the Sufis.

Islam kept the lamp of knowledge alive and well through a time when Europe was awash in mud and superstition.

A little respect is in order.

Ad infinitum

[Paul Peru]

You tell her, girl!