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Thread: Israel/Palestine Question

  1. #31
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel/Palestine Question

    Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our times is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the “Freedom Party” (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties. It was formed out of the membership and following of the former Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine.

    The current visit of Menachem Begin, leader of this party, to the United States is obviously calculated to give the impression of American support for his party in the coming Israeli elections, and to cement political ties with conservative Zionist elements in the United States. Several Americans of national repute have lent their names to welcome his visit. It is inconceivable that those who oppose fascism throughout the world, if correctly informed as to Mr. Begin’s political record and perspectives, could add their names and support to the movement he represents.

    Before irreparable damage is done by way of financial contributions, public manifestations in Begin’s behalf, and the creation in Palestine of the impression that a large segment of America supports Fascist elements in Israel, the American public must be informed as to the record and objectives of Mr. Begin and his movement.

    The public avowals of Begin’s party are no guide whatever to its actual character. Today they speak of freedom, democracy and anti-imperialism, whereas until recently they openly preached the doctrine of the Fascist state. It is in its actions that the terrorist party betrays its real character; from its past actions we can judge what it may be expected to do in the future.

    Attack on Arab Village

    A shocking example was their behavior in the Arab village of Deir Yassin. This village, off the main roads and surrounded by Jewish lands, had taken no part in the war, and had even fought off Arab bands who wanted to use the village as their base. On April 9 (THE NEW YORK TIMES), terrorist bands attacked this peaceful village, which was not a military objective in the fighting, killed most of its inhabitants — 240 men, women, and children — and kept a few of them alive to parade as captives through the streets of Jerusalem. Most of the Jewish community was horrified at the deed, and the Jewish Agency sent a telegram of apology to King Abdullah of Trans-Jordan. But the terrorists, far from being ashamed of their act, were proud of this massacre, publicized it widely, and invited all the foreign correspondents present in the country to view the heaped corpses and the general havoc at Deir Yassin.

    The Deir Yassin incident exemplifies the character and actions of the Freedom Party.

    Within the Jewish community they have preached an admixture of ultranationalism, religious mysticism, and racial superiority. Like other Fascist parties they have been used to break strikes, and have themselves pressed for the destruction of free trade unions. In their stead they have proposed corporate unions on the Italian Fascist model.

    During the last years of sporadic anti-British violence, the IZL and Stern groups inaugurated a reign of terror in the Palestine Jewish community. Teachers were beaten up for speaking against them, adults were shot for not letting their children join them. By gangster methods, beatings, window-smashing, and wide-spread robberies, the terrorists intimidated the population and exacted a heavy tribute.

    The people of the Freedom Party have had no part in the constructive achievements in Palestine. They have reclaimed no land, built no settlements, and only detracted from the Jewish defense activity. Their much-publicized immigration endeavors were minute, and devoted mainly to bringing in Fascist compatriots.

    Discrepancies Seen

    The discrepancies between the bold claims now being made by Begin and his party, and their record of past performance in Palestine bear the imprint of no ordinary political party. This is the unmistakable stamp of a Fascist party for whom terrorism (against Jews, Arabs, and British alike), and misrepresentation are means, and a “Leader State” is the goal.

    In the light of the foregoing considerations, it is imperative that the truth about Mr. Begin and his movement be made known in this country. It is all the more tragic that the top leadership of American Zionism has refused to campaign against Begin’s efforts, or even to expose to its own constituents the dangers to Israel from support to Begin.

    The undersigned therefore take this means of publicly presenting a few salient facts concerning Begin and his party; and of urging all concerned not to support this latest manifestation of fascism.
    ...
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  2. #32
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel/Palestine Question

    Didn't Menachem Begin die in 1980? Your article is quoting him as the current leader. What is your point with that quote?

    EDIT: I'm sorry, he died in 1992. Again, what is your point? Should we be aruging that the Palestinians are still warring against the US because of the Achille Lauro hijacking?
    Last edited by Don Corleone; 05-19-2005 at 05:05.
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  3. #33
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel/Palestine Question

    First who signed this letter?

    Second it kind of contradicts the modern view that no one lived in Palestine.

    Third it mentions some of the less then savoury methods that where used to create the current state. Which in turn is having the same methods turned back on them.

    Fourth it is always good to look at history when we are discussing a historical problem...
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
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  4. #34
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel/Palestine Question

    I apologize.

    I did not realize you were making a post based on historical arguments. Perhaps a note of editorial intent would have helped.

    One, I have no idea, you posted no signatories. I suspect that was your intent.

    Two, I personally have never subsribed to the "There was nobody living in Palestine" argument.

    Three, I fail to see where Begin asked Zionsit settler women to ask their children to strap bombs to their bodies and blow the Brittish mandate troops up.

    Fourth, Yes it is. Interesting perspective. As I said in point one, I wish you had framed it in that light.

    Like I said to Beirut, I will say to you, I don't disagree with the idea of two homelands. Until each people have a homeland of their own, we will continue to see more of what we have seen. I am on the side of whomever will accept that compromise. Unfortunately, I see little compromise on either side. When I see a Palestinian textbook with a map of Israel, and I see an Israeli map with charted Palestinian water rights, I will believe we have a solution. Until then, I see round 9.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
    Strike for the South

  5. #35
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel/Palestine Question

    (signed)

    Isidore Abramowitz, Hannah Arendt, Abraham Brick, Rabbi Jessurun Cardozo, Albert Einstein, Herman Eisen, M.D., Hayim Fineman, M. Gallen, M.D., H.H. Harris, Zelig S. Harris, Sidney Hook, Fred Karush, Bruria Kaufman, Irma L. Lindheim, Nachman Maisel, Symour Melman, Myer D. Mendelson, M.D., Harry M. Orlinsky, Samuel Pitlick, Fritz Rohrlich, Louis P. Rocker, Ruth Sager, Itzhak Sankowsky, I.J. Schoenberg, Samuel Shuman, M. Znger, Irma Wolpe, Stefan Wolpe

    New York, Dec. 2, 1948
    ...
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
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  6. #36
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel/Palestine Question

    Aaah. Of course, Papewaio. You're so clever. Albert Einstein himself, along with other noted Jews of the time, proclaimed Israel had no right to exist. You're a genius, but where have you been for the past 57 years?
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
    Strike for the South

  7. #37
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel/Palestine Question

    So, based on the thread of your last couple of posts Pape, I assume we should take it to mean that because Uncle Albert & company thought that Begin was a terrorist, Israel has no right to exist?

    Or perhaps you could come out and say what it is you're trying to say? Do you believe in the two state solution, or do you wish to advocate the Jews keep looking for a homeland.... you've decided they don't belong there?
    Last edited by Don Corleone; 05-19-2005 at 05:43.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
    Strike for the South

  8. #38
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel/Palestine Question

    I'm saying that:

    A) Someone obviously existed in Israel prior to it.

    B) The Israelis at least owe them the same rights as Aborogines in Australia, Maoris in New Zealand and American Indians in the USA.

    C) Being against Israel/Zionism does not automatically make one a Nazi.

    D) Hate breeds Hate.

    E) People are calling the Palestinians barbaric animals while ignoring how the state of Israel came into effect.

    F) Ruling class has obligations.

    I think that the Israelis should have been a bit fairer to the Palestinians once the Israelis got to power. Also it is a case of the pot callling the kettle black when either side says the other is a terrorist organisation.

    The real issue though is not past wrongs. It is how do we go on from here and see a more balanced fairer society created? Would something like South Africas healing process (where crimes during Apartheid where generally pardoned if the person came forward, so that old wounds could be healed).

    I don't know.

    What I do know is both sides have some really poor taste in real estate over human life.
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
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  9. #39
    Chief Sniffer Senior Member ichi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel/Palestine Question

    Gosh I wish I'd said that

    Pretty nice Pape

    ichi
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  10. #40
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel/Palestine Question

    I appreciate your honest summary. If I may, I'd like to rebut. Before I begin, please allow me to remind you, I speak for me. Not conservatives, not the American Pro-Israeal lobby, just me. However.... (sorry folks, I'm too lazy tonight to cut & paste quote tags. Please try to pay attention to what was said by whom).

    A) Someone obviously existed in Israel prior to it.

    I have not argued the counter-point, and I acutally thought you all were doing a good job refuting arguments along these lines. Didn't realize this was a soft spot, sorry...

    B) The Israelis at least owe them the same rights as Aborogines in Australia, Maoris in New Zealand and American Indians in the USA.

    Yes, I support a sovereign and self-sustainable Palestine. Will you agree that a sustainable and sovereign Israel also has a right to exist?

    C) Being against Israel/Zionism does not automatically make one a Nazi.

    It depends on how you define Zionism. But you are correct, being against Israel's right to exist does not make you a Nazi. It does make you anti-Israeli, however.

    D) Hate breeds Hate.

    Sounds nice. Palestinians danced in the streets and handed out candy becauase a guy (Jim Greenleaf) I played football with and lifted weights with in high school crumbled thousands of feet in a concrete mass in the North tower. Should I continue to hate them?

    E) People are calling the Palestinians barbaric animals while ignoring how the state of Israel came into effect.

    I, personally, allow wrongs have been done on all sides. Can you?

    F) Ruling class has obligations.

    Yes, to defend itself, and then seek to defend others. What's your point with that statement?

    What I do know is both sides have some really poor taste in real estate over human life.
    Amen.
    Last edited by Don Corleone; 05-19-2005 at 06:06.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
    Strike for the South

  11. #41
    Chief Sniffer Senior Member ichi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel/Palestine Question

    F) Ruling class has obligations.

    Yes, to defend itself, and then seek to defend others. What's your point with that statement?
    Rulers have an obligation to be benevolent and ensure fairness.

    or at least that's what I thought he meant

    ichi
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  12. #42
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel/Palestine Question

    Can you ensure the fairness of others and be benevolent while fighting for survival?
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
    Strike for the South

  13. #43

    Default Re: Israel/Palestine Question

    Thanks for the well thought out responses guys.. answered my question well.

    The real question seems to be:

    Do they have inherent rights to the land simply because they lived there - even though it was actually Britain's property.

    Thats certainly a debatable question...

  14. #44
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel/Palestine Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone

    A) Someone obviously existed in Israel prior to it.

    I have not argued the counter-point, and I acutally thought you all were doing a good job refuting arguments along these lines. Didn't realize this was a soft spot, sorry...
    Its okay I was just outlining some of my points of view with the standard IMDHO by the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    B) The Israelis at least owe them the same rights as Aborogines in Australia, Maoris in New Zealand and American Indians in the USA.

    Yes, I support a sovereign and self-sustainable Palestine. Will you agree that a sustainable and sovereign Israel also has a right to exist?
    A sustainable and sovereign Israel has probably at this point of time more of a reason to exist then a separate Palestine.

    My main point is that even if a minority is different to the majority they should have got a fair go from the outset. It gets more and more difficulty to heal wounds when both sides are making fresh cuts. If they want to be a nation then they have obligations to all within its borders.

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    C) Being against Israel/Zionism does not automatically make one a Nazi.

    It depends on how you define Zionism. But you are correct, being against Israel's right to exist does not make you a Nazi. It does make you anti-Israeli, however.
    To be precise I am not against Israels borders I am against how it does things inside of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    D) Hate breeds Hate.

    Sounds nice. Palestinians danced in the streets and handed out candy becauase a guy (Jim Greenleaf) I played football with and lifted weights with in high school crumbled thousands of feet in a concrete mass in the North tower. Should I continue to hate them?
    No you shouldn't because how is the hate going to make you feel better if you don't do anything with it? Hate is as much a cancer to the holder as anything else.

    Also I thought the images of Palestinians dancing in the streets after 9/11 where refuted as being media libarary images from a separate event.

    Either way do you really what to condemn an entire group of people based on the actions of a few?

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    E) People are calling the Palestinians barbaric animals while ignoring how the state of Israel came into effect.

    I, personally, allow wrongs have been done on all sides. Can you?
    Since I referred to the pot calling the kettle black I definitly do think wrongs are done on both sides. I personnally think the Palestinians have done a lot of more wrong with their terrorist activities. I don't think though Israel is lilly white and I don't think their harsh tactics have helped create a long term solution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    F) Ruling class has obligations.

    Yes, to defend itself, and then seek to defend others. What's your point with that statement?
    That Israels are in charge. That they do rule the Palestinians. That as long as they have them in their borders that they should treat them as human beings. Likewise the Palestinians should treat the Israelis as human beings as well.

    At the moment the only ones benefiting are the right wing fundamentalists on both sides. As a state of terror gives them far more power then they would have say in a state of 'hippy-peace'.

    Can you image how little political clout Hamas would have if the Palestinians had a first world middle class lifestyle...
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
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  15. #45
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel/Palestine Question

    Bah, Panzer, come on, we have no right to sovereignty if you're going to use that criteria. Anything East of the Ohio, north of the Tennessee belongs to England, and the rest to Spain and France. You can always find prior owners.

    What we're really talking about is

    Is each side going to give the other the chance to survive? Will Israel give enough fertile land and water rights to allow Palestine to grow? Will Palestine ever acknowledge a neighbor?

    Will any of us ever forgive?
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
    Strike for the South

  16. #46
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel/Palestine Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Papewaio

    No you shouldn't because how is the hate going to make you feel better if you don't do anything with it? Hate is as much a cancer to the holder as anything else.

    Also I thought the images of Palestinians dancing in the streets after 9/11 where refuted as being media libarary images from a separate event.

    Either way do you really what to condemn an entire group of people based on the actions of a few?
    Of course I don't. I wouldn't have offered the point for debate if I still clung to it. Honestly, Pape, don't know where you're getting your 'they weren't celebrating' proof from, but I saw it on BBC, not exactly a pro-America proganda channel.

    This is my point. You say "Hate breeds hate". I say no it doesn't. Somebody has to stand up and say "I'll take it and let it end with me". As long as we're trying to sort out who did what to whom, we play the devil's game. It's been hard, harder than you could ever possibly know, but I have come to a place where I pray for Palestinians, to have a safe and happy home. I know they hate me. I know they'll continue to, long into the future. That's not the point. The point is, when my number comes up, I can answer "Yes sir, I did as you told me. I forgave". I think it's time for everyone else to.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
    Strike for the South

  17. #47
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel/Palestine Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    This is my point. You say "Hate breeds hate". I say no it doesn't. Somebody has to stand up and say "I'll take it and let it end with me". As long as we're trying to sort out who did what to whom, we play the devil's game. It's been hard, harder than you could ever possibly know, but I have come to a place where I pray for Palestinians, to have a safe and happy home. I know they hate me. I know they'll continue to, long into the future. That's not the point. The point is, when my number comes up, I can answer "Yes sir, I did as you told me. I forgave". I think it's time for everyone else to.
    Which makes yourself far more mature then the majority in the world. The question then is how did can we get more people to follow your example?

    BTW went to Snopes.com, they confirmed the CNN footage was accurate. What a screwed up thing to celebrate.

    CNN used old footage to fake images of 'Palestinians dancing in the street' after the terrorist attack on the USA.
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
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  18. #48
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel/Palestine Question

    Pape, I respect you too much to get into this. Was every picture broadcast on 9/12 a live image? No. But let's not kid ourselves. Arafat had his guards out in the street ripping film out of foreign journalists cameras. So, did they resort to stock footage? Yes. We all know what happened. If you really insist, I'll waste my day off tomorrow dredging up links, but as a shortcut, go to Al Jazeera, they still have them in their archives, if you search with the right terms.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
    Strike for the South

  19. #49
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel/Palestine Question

    Dude read the link it confirms that CNN footage was not faked.
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
    Pape for global overlord!!
    Quote Originally Posted by English assassin
    Squid sources report that scientists taste "sort of like chicken"
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    The rest is either as average as advertised or, in the case of the missionary, disappointing.

  20. #50
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel/Palestine Question

    Sorry, I read the headline, which was actually the claim proven to be false.

    I stand by my original claim. We are all going to have to suck it up. I'm not going to lie and pretend I'm not boiling just thinking about all of this again. But it's not going to end until it does....


    Man, this is harder to type then I thought it was going to be...


    ..... Okay, they're not looking for forgiveness, but I don't care. I give it. I just want them to know they celebrated the murder of a good man, a decent man, and a guy who was very good to me. Jim Greenleaf was a hell of a guy, and for all the stereotypes of jocks, he used to make the rest of us go do charity work. The world lost something when he left.


    Anyways, enough with the emotional rants. They're going to have to come to a place where they can say and do what they claim they want. I dont' argue that Israel makes it easy, but, as I mentioned above, forgiveness never is.

    Two states everyone?
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
    Strike for the South

  21. #51

    Default Re: Israel/Palestine Question

    Bah, Panzer, come on, we have no right to sovereignty if you're going to use that criteria. Anything East of the Ohio, north of the Tennessee belongs to England, and the rest to Spain and France. You can always find prior owners.

    No, you will find we have plenty of documentation from the Spanish, English and French that stands as proof of either our purchase of the land or our winning it in a war.

  22. #52
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel/Palestine Question

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but did we not, at different times, defend claims with each of the above mentioned nations, with force of arms, at one point or another? I'm not arguring we weren't right to do so, I'm arguing as far as they were concerned, the matter was far from settled.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
    Strike for the South

  23. #53

    Default Re: Israel/Palestine Question

    Actually i believe our issues with those countries were settled.

    Spain ceded florida and some other territory first with Jackson and ending with the Spanish American war.

    England was forced to cede the colonies of course and subsequently(after another war) acknowledged the fact that the US did in fact own the land England once did.

    And France simply sold us a lot of land if im not mistaken.


    My point is that its hard to tell if the palestinians ever owned any of the land they seek. It was turkish, then it was ceded, legally, to Britain.

  24. #54
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel/Palestine Question

    Well, not to bash France, but where do you think Pancho Villa got his guns and money from? Dude, listen to yourself. You're describing what's going on over there, right now.... THERE ARE ALWAYS territorial disputes. Some peaceful, some not so. Did the Palestinians call themselves Palestinians 60 years ago? Probably not. Did they think they were signed on for a Jewish state? I guarantee not. Maybe they have to learn to bend. Maybe we do. But we have to move past this who can F*%k the other worse, because I've got news, it all hurts.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
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  25. #55

    Default Re: Israel/Palestine Question

    If the group has no legal claim on the land, how is this a two sided coin?

    From what i have gathered from this thread, Britain did in fact give the land to the Israelis.. the only claim the palestinians have seems to be a vague link to the Turkish, but they lost that land after WW1.

    So who is occupying whose land here?

    Maybe they have to learn to bend. Maybe we do. But we have to move past this who can F*%k the other worse, because I've got news, it all hurts.
    We can all get a circle and hold hands if you like but, as is so often the case, it is usually the side that can F*%k the other that ends up on top.

    I have little sympathy for Israel and even less for the animals that currently co-habitate that area, but if we take emotion out of the equation it seems quite clear who legally owns the land.

  26. #56
    Master of useless knowledge Senior Member Kitten Shooting Champion, Eskiv Champion Ironside's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel/Palestine Question

    PanzerJager

    Estonia, Finaland and (I think) Livonia didn't exist as states, anytime in history, until the Russian civil war in WW1 (1917). Should they exist?

    Or are you claiming that (only) might makes it right?

    In that case, if the Palestinians would suddenly defeat Israel and force them to sign a contract that gives Israel to the Palestinians, it would be perfectly fair and right.
    Actually kidnapping Sharon and force him to sign this contract would make it right.

    Edit:
    Anyway Israel was given Israel, not Gaza, the Westbank and the Golan hights. That was Egyptian, Jordanian and Syrian territory.
    Last edited by Ironside; 05-19-2005 at 08:37.
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  27. #57
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel/Palestine Question

    Yeah, I'm such a peace-nick, that's how I'm known around these parts.

    Honestly, what is your answer? You either have to eradicate them entirely, or give them a place to go. I'm not aruging Israel has to fall over and give Palestine everything they claim, but come on, how can you justify the settlements over there? If you want to play this 'lines are lines' game, isn't that screwing your game up?
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
    Strike for the South

  28. #58
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel/Palestine Question

    Estonia, Finaland and (I think) Livonia didn't exist as states, anytime in history, until the Russian civil war in WW1 (1917). Should they exist?
    And Israel didnt exist until 1948 Should it exist? Its the same damn thing the winners divide the spoils the way they see fit.

    In that case, if the Palestinians would suddenly defeat Israel and force them to sign a contract that gives Israel to the Palestinians, it would be perfectly fair and right
    Have the Israelis forced the Plaestinians to sign a contract that gives Plaestine to the Israelis? It would be perfectly fair and right.

    Anyway Israel was given Israel, not Gaza, the Westbank and the Golan hights. That was Egyptian, Jordanian and Syrian territory.
    Yes it was until they attacked Israel and lost. Would you like every nation to give back any land that it got by defendiing themselves?

    All this talk of who lived there and when doesnt matter a hoot. Its all irelevant. The land was given to Britain and they gave it to Israel and Jordan case clkosed. The Palestinians were then also promised a land of their own even though they and the Jordanians are the same people but turned it down. Still they had this land for 20 years and nver asked for an independant nation until they lost another war and the land.
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  29. #59
    Lord of the House Flies Member Al Khalifah's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel/Palestine Question

    Yes it was until they attacked Israel and lost. Would you like every nation to give back any land that it got by defendiing themselves?
    Gawain, you are the master of putting it best.
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  30. #60
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel/Palestine Question

    Yes* the slaves should've been given the land, and in some cases they were given land only to have it confiscated at a later date. I don't think the example of how ex-slaves were sold out, should be used as a model for anything.
    I guess if your a share cropper and your landlord dies you should get his land also.

    Why should jews who never lived in the middle east be allowed to emigrate there and displace people who already lived there?
    Why should arabs who never lived in Palestine be allowed to emigrate there and displace people who already lived there?

    No, because when you rent a house from a man you sign a legal contract, IIRC slaves did not sign legal contracts.
    The palestinians were not slaves but rented the land they lived on and had a legal contract to do so. The land belonged to Turkish landlords not the people working on the land.

    *I'm not in favor reperations, but in the period following the Civil War I would've been in favor of compensating ex-slaves for their un-paid labor.
    And who would pay then the south? They were broke. Why should the North pay they freed them.
    Fighting for Truth , Justice and the American way

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