Feudal Japan and Dynastic China: The military

[RollingWave]

To give an idea of the change of warfare during the eastern Zhou era, here's a comparason, the original fedual battles were often like the greek city states phalanx battles, the two sides meet (sometimes at designated locations.) and they form up formations, ususally with the chariots as the center of the army while each chariots has bout a dozen infantry to support it. both sides fire arrows at each other until one side decide to charge. and then either both side charge other or the other side will try to hold their formation and withstand the charge... either way the first side to break formation lose.

battles were usually fought by feudal warriors only (the higher class are the charioteer, ususally on the left of the chariots with a bow and sword, the center is the rider and the left is a middle or lower class warrior holding a polearm ) afterwards the lose side sometimes give the winning side cities/lands or goods.... sieging was very rare.

But as the fedual system begin to fall apart mass total warfare begin to happen, battles were no longer fought at arranged places, cities will be sieged, commoners will be dragged into war (towards the late warring states saw several battles where both sides practically pitched in every able male within their realm) there is no more rules to the battle (night attacks, out manuvers, spies/assasins, every trick in the book is used) and as battle became less predictable, the less flexible chariots slowly begin to fade out of use as it is no good in any difficult terrain. while infantry became the core of the army and calvary began to be used.)

Here's an example of a early warring states clash .
Battle of Ma ling. 342 b.c
The Kingdom of Wei attacked it's weaker neighboring kingdom of Han to their south, the Han send emmisaries to the Kingdom of Chi, which is another strong kingdoming on the east of Wei.

The Chi army was led by Tian Ji and Sun Bin, Sun Bin is acturally a decendent of Sun Tzu himself.

Seeing that the main forces of the Wei is in Han, instead of heading their army to the kingdom of Han they headed strait for the Wei capital of Da Lian.

The Wei general (whowas a friend of Sun Bin back in their younger days but betrayed him later) Pon Jiuan realizing that the Chi army was heading for their capital, lift the siege in Han and headed strait home. trying to cut off the Chi army before they reached Da lian.

In close pursuit, they keep seeing the camps left behind by the Chi army in the previous few days. examianing the camps he realized that the camp are smaller by the day and less cooking fire were left behind with every camp they find, he assumed that the Chi army tired of the long march and feared being so deep in enemy territory were starting to see deserters. and then he realize that they were starting to head off course and instead of heading to Da Lian they look like they were trying to turn around and head home.

So Pon decided to pursue the Chi army as fast as he could, leaving behind the slow infantries behind them and pursuit with the faster light infantries and chariots.

As he closed in on the Chi forces around Ma Ling (a rather narrow vally pass.) at night. he suddenly realized that the Chi forces and cut down many trees and laid them in the pass, thinking that this was a stalling tactic he pressed on, and then (this part might be made up...) he realized that the Chi forces left one big tree standing and seem to have written something on it.

written on the bark says "Pon Jiuan dies under this tree" and suddenly Chi archers and crossbowmens sprang from their ambush on the mountian and in the woods, unleashing their amunition to the densly packed and dissarrayed Wei army below. and then the remaining Chi forces charged from both ends on the shocked and already tired Wei troops, whom were without the support of their heavy infantries, they were soon utterly defeated with Pon Jiuan dead.

The battle ended in a grand victory, this battle reversed the early warring states situation where Wei was the strongest.. now Chi replaced them and they remained a major powerhouse throughout the warring states.

The battle description give an clear idea on the logic of Chinese warfare, you try to gain as much of an edge as possible, you try to force the enemy to react to your manuverings, you try to fake them into assuming wrong things about you, you try to fight them while ur fresh and they are tired, you try to divide them and surprise them. you should try to let them run up against ur well prepared defense, while only do full out attack when you have the surprise or they are already in dissarray, you try to pick the most favorable position for urself.

Pon lost because he got fooled by the deception of the reduced camp and manuvering of the Chi, thinking they were retreating in dissary while instead they were waiting for him in ambush. the deception not only got him to divide he's forces but also let down he's guard and easily fell into an ambush. but even if he hadn't fall into the ambush with he's force divided and tired from the force march, a defeat is almost inevitable as well.

[sapi]

That's a very interesting story, RollingWave, i can use that as an example of the less noble and more 'just win it' Chinese culture (warring states period) compared to the rituialistic and moral-based japanese samurai warfare that emerged later.

I know that this is not the same period as the samurai but i can use the 'just win it' Chinese methos in that period as an example of their way of fighting.

Re: nokhor, i will look at the books you suggested if i can find them

Thanks for all the help; any more is of course welcome...i'll try to repay the favour one day to someone else asking for help once i have the knowledge!

[RollingWave]

It seems like a general pattern in history to evolve from ritualistic warfare to all out total war. just that in China it happaned a lot sooner than in Japan

The japanese warfare in Shangouku jida (sp?) were also far from noble, with muskets and assasins and all the commoners dragged into war and bribing part of ur oppenent to join you etc....

Ritualistic warfare is IMHO a product of feudal eras in general... if you wish to maintain the feudal ways you must stick to the rules... if you simply want to conquer ur enemy you throw the rules out the window.

There were several warring divided periods in China, but Warring States usually referr to 475b.c-221 b.c , which was before the Han dynasty, the period between the Han and Sui has less agreed on name, in our forum we preferr to call it the age of fragmentation though.

[sapi]

There were several warring divided periods in China, but Warring States usually referr to 475b.c-221 b.c , which was before the Han dynasty, the period between the Han and Sui has less agreed on name, in our forum we preferr to call it the age of fragmentation though.

lol i just came back to fix that - i realised that although Han -> Sui was a period of disunity it was not the warring states period, but you beat me to it :)


Yes, it is interesting to note the relationship between feudalism and the sense of nobility and values in combat - knights in europe, early chinese fighting, samurai in japan....