Cavalry calamity

[littlebktruck]

Hi all! I just got this game on Saturday, and I must say it's easily one of the best I've ever played. Anyway, while playing a campaign as the English (on normal), I started a war with the Spanish. This was a stupid declaration for a number of reasons, but that lesson has been learned and that has little to do with my main problem. After my attacking force was annihilated I settled into defensive mode. The problem was that the armies they sent at me were cavalry heavy. I managed to defeat them a few times (with huge casualties on both sides; I probably would have lost all the battles if they hadn't been careless with their generals.) However, I had a lot of problems with them sending their cavalry far out on the flanks. This presented quite a few problems:

1) I had to send my cavalry to meet them, so I couldn't use them for support;

2) They usually had better cavalry than I did (Jiinettes, royal knights, and even a couple of crusader knights vs. mounted sargeants for most battles);

3) Their movements stretched the field quite a bit, which is especially troublesome for a new player like me.

After a last staggering defeat (with about 800 killed/captured per side), I finally gave up. So, my question is: what should I do to keep their cavalry from running amok?

[Productivity]

What are your defensive armies like? We need to know what we have to work with.

[ichi]

Welcome to the Org littlebktruck

If I understand you correctly, these were battles where you were defense. If that is the case, then my simple answer is to not go looking for a fight and keep your cav close to support your infantry and missile troops.


I turn the battle timer off, and on defense when I am outcaved I simply wait for the AI to come to me. Stay tight and if the AI sends less than 16 units at you at one time use your cav to fight the guys right in front of you - don't go looking for a fight off on the flanks.

As the English you can build two of the best faction-specific units - Longbowmen and Billmen - both of which can be deadly against cavalry.

If you're worried about getting committed and then having the AI cav commit to the main fray, hold a cav or good anti-cav unit back as reserve.

ichi

[Kommodus]

If you're the English and are on the defensive, you have a simple enough solution. Include some units of billmen in your army, and place them on your flanks. Try to arrange your army in such a way that the enemy cannot get behind it, and instead must come at it from the front (on a hill at the back of the map works well, if possible). They will still try to attack one of your flanks, but if you group the whole thing and alt-right-click, you can rotate your whole army to face them no matter where they come from. Since the AI almost always places cavalry on the flanks, your billmen will be well-positioned to meet them, and will cut them up. You'll do even better if you have some longbowmen to thin their ranks as they approach.

As for holding the center, use the best spearmen and swordsmen available to you (or just use more billmen). It doesn't sound like this will be much of a problem for you, since you said that cavalry, and not infantry, was your problem. Just watch out for enemy knights trying to charge down your swordsmen. The key will be getting the matchups that you want - meet their cavalry with billmen or seargants.

Since your cavalry is lighter than theirs, don't try to use it to go toe-to-toe with enemy knights; instead, keep it in reserve and prepare to chase down routers or hit soft targets as they present themselves. If you're on the defensive, infantry will win the battle for you, and cavalry will simply make your win a little more decisive.

When you go on the offensive, you'll have to modify this tactic, but the principles remain the same - destroy enemy cavalry with billmen, and use your own cavalry to hit soft targets. Eventually you'll get heavier cavalry and you'll be able to send it against stronger targets, even meeting enemy cavalry (although this is not the most efficient use). Billmen are best for that - in fact, billmen are a great all-around unit, with no serious weaknesses against anything. They easily beat spearmen, and can even hold their own against swordsmen. Just keep them away from arrows if possible.

As the English, billmen and longbowmen should form the core of your army. With a few other units for support, it's an almost unstoppable combination - easily one of the best in the game.

[TonkaToys]

Welcome to the Org littlebktruck

Whilst Billmen and Longbowmen are fantastic, you should note that you cannot build them immediately. IIRC you need Wales (or is that just for the bonus), have to wait for a certain date & need a master bowyer to build Longbowmen; and similarly to build billmen - build them in Mercia (I think) to get the best bonus.

As for early armies, you need to think about the terrain and use that to your advantage.

Like Kommodus says, use the rear-most part of the field to position your main army, that makes it difficult to rear-flank you. Try to position a flank against a wood or an impassable object (rock / cliff) so that one flank is protected.

Give your archers as much time as possible to pick off the oncoming enemy, but don't leave them out to dry as they may rout straight through your troops and cause them to break (which is really bad if you are at the back of the map!)
Don't forget that your archers can fire over your own troops, but that you should avoid firing into a melee for fear of friendly-fire.

Try to keep some troops in reserve, especially fast ones like your light cav; these can be used to bolster weakened areas of your line, or if you are lucky can be used to run out wide and encircle / flank an engaged enemy.

Use spears against horsemen, swords against spearmen and cav against swords.

Finally, if you are on defence, you can leave the timer on (sorry Ichi) and try to delay them so that they lose on the basis of time - even if they wipe out half your army, hide a bunch in a wood (not the general as he cannot hide - look at their troop icon and if there is a tree showing that means they are successfully hidden) and keep them away from the enemy.


Good Luck!

[Odin]

Unit types (as mentioned) is the major element for your defense but dont underestimate the ability to pick your position. As the defender you get to pick where your units deploy. That little bonus is often crucial when defending against superior numbers.

Specific to cavalry, put a few spear units in the woods and use a high value unit (royal knights) to lure thier horsemen into the woods, you will shread them.

Also use place ranged units on higer ground supported by cavalry and bait them into range. Worst case scenario you have enemy horsemen charging up a slope to engage your forces. At that point you use your reserve horsemen to charge down and hit them hard. (remember to stop your ranged units fire once your engaged).

the advice on units the other memebers have given is excellent. In addition to that take a few minutes at the start of battle and get the lay of the land and position your troops accordingly ! More emphasis on your initial deployment is an important factor for defensing against superior numbers, even if its AI on a low setting if you just slap them anywhere you'll be flanked and routed.

[edyzmedieval]

Welcome to the org!!!

Firstly, to defend against heavy cavalry you need some serious spearmen, halberdiers, pikemen or Billmen.... The Swiss(one of my fav factions) have the best pikemen in the game...Those Swiss Armoured Pikemen are (I mean they are the best!!!) .......We need to know what armies did you have....Otherwise, we can't give much help than giving you info on the best spearmen and pikemen.....

[Eternal Champion]

There has been given a lot of good advice for early. Most new players start off in early (before year 1205) so I assume you did the same based on the fact your main cav is mounted sergeants. In early your best defense against cav is spears, in ranks three or four deep, on hold position and hold formation. This is very important as they will receive bonuses on defense. The enemy cav will now have a difficult time with your spears, once they are engaged you can flank them with urban militia or better yet your cav and charge them in the rear. Also do not discount the value of plain archers especially in early when everybody's armor is light. Archers can reach out pretty far and you can take down alot of your enemy before he even reaches your line. Defensive armies should contain lots of spears and archers, a few sword/axe units and just a couple cav units to help cover flanks and run down routers. Another thing nobody mentioned is high command generals make a huge difference. The more stars a general has the harder and longer his troops will fight. This can make a huge difference as can your general going down.

Also look at your tech tree and always use the best troops you can afford and build. Once you get accustomed to what you need to build different types of troops you'll be surprised how quickly you can tech up.

[ichi]

Finally, if you are on defence, you can leave the timer on (sorry Ichi) and try to delay them so that they lose on the basis of time - even if they wipe out half your army, hide a bunch in a wood (not the general as he cannot hide - look at their troop icon and if there is a tree showing that means they are successfully hidden) and keep them away from the enemy.

No reason to apologize, how each person plays is a matter of style. Most MP battles are fought with the timer off. I was never satisfied with a timer victory when I first started playing, I think it was after the second hide and seek thingy when I turned off my timer. I felt, well, . . . cheesy, but like I said, others may feel differently and that's OK.

ichi

[Procrustes]

All great advice. Couple small comments....

As the English you can get Frydmen quite quickly in early - they are sturdy spears, equivalent to Feudal Sgts and a lot better than plain spearmen. (Billmen and longbows are available in High, and the build requirments are greater.)

Don't neglect militia sgts - they can be deadly against most everything, though their moral isn't the greatest. (They are decent polarms - early versions of halbs/billmen.)

I've found that the half-square formation can be quite good when you have a foot army defending against a mounted one. Mix in a few spears, archers, and militia sgts. Set it up around a copse of woods if you can - have the woods to the backs of your men so your archers can fire out at oncoming enemy, and your soldiers can retreat backwards into the woods if they are charged by the cav (cav fight poorly in woods) or if you start getting rained with arrows. A little elevation is a plus. Don't let the enemy lure you out of your position too early, or they will slaughter you in the open. Often the enemy will attack one side of your square; then you can shift the units from the free side over if things start getting hairy.

(The easiest way to set up is to select the half-square formation, select and then group all your units, then click on the place where you want them to be. Now if you position your cursor and alt-click you can rotate the whole formation to get it exactly where you want it.)

[bretwalda]

Spear units in the woods are not always a good idea as their rank bonuses are negated by the trees. (You can see their lines broken by the tree trunks...) Why not Halbs or other armor piercing?

[Procrustes]

Spear units in the woods are not always a good idea as their rank bonuses are negated by the trees. (You can see their lines broken by the tree trunks...) Why not Halbs or other armor piercing?

Hi,

Was this directed at me?

You're right, spears are most effective when they are in formation - just keep their flanks protected and don't let them tangle with swords or get cut down by missiles. Cav are still so poor in the woods that I find that spears will still fair well, though. Axes or polearms are deadly against cav in woods. Halbs are fantastic everywhere if you can get them, but it needs to be after 1205, you need a citadel, and you need three levels of town watch. You can get MS w/ a keep and two levels of town watch, they are much cheaper, and they are suprisingly effective. (imho)

A lot of my experience facing heavy cav with foot soldiers has come from meeting the Golden Horde as the Danes. Without some woods to retreat into you can just get shot to pieces before they decide to close - those steppe heavy cav and GH warriors all carry bows. With some woods behind you, you can step back into relative shelter and then move forward when they decide to charge.

Best,

[PittBull260]

english is easy to defend
Billmen+longbowmen+chiv men-atarms
that's probhably the best overall army u can get wit the english

[Eternal Champion]

english is easy to defend Billmen+longbowmen+chiv men-at arms that's probhably the best overall army u can get wit the english

You are right except they are not available in Early period

[ichi]

Bribe the rebel Longbowmen in Wales to start the game, the take good care of them, hide them behind Spears and Fyrds, and you can get a lot of kills in Early with them.

ichi

[littlebktruck]

Thanks for all the replies! I should note that it was in Early and that I don't have the expansion pack.

I think the problem may be with my setup. Most (or all) of my spearmen were on the front line, so my flanks were vulnerable to cavalry. I hated to break the line so I didn't shift them. Also, my infantry were in kind of a valley; there were high hills on both sides that I tried to protect (and did reasonably well for most of the battle) with cavalry. As for army makeup, I think I had 5 feudal sargeants, 5 feudal men-at-arms, 4 mounted sargeants, and 2 hobilars (one of which had a 4 star general). I refought one of the battles from that campaign last night. I didn't do much better this time; I kept the cavalry that they sent wide at bay, but it didn't go well in the middle. I think the lack of archers really hurt, as, when their infantry approached, they just stood there while their archers fired, forcing me to initiate the contact and break up my line. They also had extra units of royal knights that hit my center after the infantry came. My mounted sargeants did admirably, but I lost track of them as I tried to save the center and they wandered to the edge of the map. I lost the battle and suffered 690 casualties (out of about 920) and caused about 630 (out of 1140 or so). I find that my battles are unusually high casualty affairs. Even in a good battle I suffer about 280, and, if I do well, I catch a lot of routers and I can kill/capture about 550 of them.

[TonkaToys]

Thanks for all the replies! I should note that it was in Early and that I don't have the expansion pack.

Make sure you at least have the latest patches. Also have you read Frogbeastegg's guide? It is a brilliant introduction to the game and is available on the Org downloads area (as well as in the guides section of the forum).

Finally, practice practice practice.

[English assassin]

Hmm. Lack of any missile troops at all is going to give you a problem if they stand off and shoot you up, fair enough. Though if they have vanilla archers and they are firing on FS its worth seeing how many causalties you are actually taking before moving out of a good position. Often its best just to take the fire.

I'm not too sure about the position either, height offers a big advantage in defence. I can see why a valley might look good in terms of flank protection but if you don't hold the hills at either end the protection turns into a launchpad for enemy units. might you have been better set up on the hill?

I second the advice about not looking for trouble (and not matching cav with cav if you don't have to). you could try a shorter line, maybe three FS and 2 FMMA, and stack up the remaining 2 FS and 3 FMMA in two columns behind the two units on either flank. Put the cav in the middle. This way you have a reserve force on each flank to either turn 90 degrees to meet a flank attack, to pop out and extend your line if need be, or to come round and flank as the chance presents itself. Ignore the enemy cav poncing around unless and until it actually commits itself to an attack.

You are quite cavalry heavy too. You might consider taking all the cav out of the Inf formation (but not putting it so far away you can be taken out in detail) and having it some way out to pile round en masse once the enemy is committed to your infantry. 4 MS would have a fair impact, I'd leave the hobilars maybe. You might have to move your inf forward to make him attack, if he shows signs of wanting to chase your cavalry instead.

[tigger_on_vrb]

If you are fighting a Spanish army heavy in Jinettes (which they often are in early) I would recommend a starting army of (roughly) 4 spears, 4 archers, 2 swords (or MS), 2 cavalry.
-Put the spears in a half hexagon - two at the front and two at the sides at an angle with no gap.
-Put a unit of archers just behind each spear unit facing the same way.
-Cavalry and swords just behind to deal with flank attacks.
Dont break the formation until you have to. The Jinettes will get mauled by your archers (the horse is a big target and they have low armour)
Once you have destroyed / routed enough jinettes charge the centre with your spears and flank with swords and cavalry - the rest of the army will go pretty easily, especially if they have a lot of javelinmen which the Spaniards tend to use too many of.

[littlebktruck]

Bribe the rebel Longbowmen in Wales to start the game, the take good care of them, hide them behind Spears and Fyrds, and you can get a lot of kills in Early with them.

ichi

Yeah, I did that. You're right, they're great. My most frustrating point of the game, in fact, was when when the Germans took 38 or so of them in a crusade. I really ought to take them out of Flanders (the Germans love to go there with their crusades as they can hop onto my ship network and go places quickly).

It's around 1180 in my new game and I've made almost no progress. My total province gain is Flanders, Wales, Brittany, Sweden, and Toulouse. I probably have the military might to go after other people, but I'm very cautious by nature (I play Civ III like this, too) and I'm afraid to attack anyone after last game's debacle. Also, attacking anyone is likely to lose me a lot of trade income. The obvious target is France (all they have left is Ile de France), but I'm a bit worried by their 6-7 units of royal knights, all of which have royals in them.

[ichi]

We might share some characteristics.

Leave the French until they get distracted/weakened by war with the HRE or Spanish.

Take the time to produce sufficient agents (Emissaries or religious types work well in this case) so that you can see what is happening on the other side of the French.

Build up your trade/farms until you trade from Finland to Sicily, and upgrade your unit training facilities as much as possible.

Look for rebel provinces to pick up, especially in the Danes lands, and consolidate the British Isles.

When the time is right those French Royals will get sucked into conflict elsewhere, and if you're ready to strike when that happens you can pulse forward.

Pulse Forward? Since the Pope will scold you and threaten you if you don't cease hostilities within two turns, you must move as quickly as you can, advancing one province out along the entire length of your border simultaneously if possible. Be ready with some siege equipment so that you can take the castles when El Popo gives his ultimatum.

When the enemies are strong then I build up, when enemies are weak I stop building production and focus on quickly picking up territory.

and always thinking about chokepoints and minimizing the number of provinces that I must keep full stacks in, maximizing the number with only a few units.

ichi