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Thread: Settlers

  1. #1
    Senior Member Senior Member English assassin's Avatar
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    Default Settlers

    Oh goody, ANOTHER middle east thread. That's what we all need...

    But, wait. I'd like to raise a specific question. That is, what are the rights of the settlers in the occupied territories, and what should Isreal and the Palestinian Authority seek to do with them?

    NB this is about the SETTLERS only, and by extension the occupied territory, it is NOT about Isreal within the pre 1967 borders, it is NOT about toddler suicide bombers, etc etc etc.

    I raise this in part as a shameless way of posting a link and quotes that I posted in another thread and which rather sank without trace. I found the insight into the SETTLER mindset very illuminating indeed. In many ways they are wholly terrifying, as is anyone who thinks that while "God requires other, normal nations to abide by abstract codes of "justice and righteousness," such laws do not apply to Jews."

    But as ever understanding where these people come from throws up some interesting angles. Mainly that they are obviously way outside mainstream Jewish thought. So why do they have Isreal and America by the balls? Aslo, it is plainly not possible to even have a dialogue with people who espouse the views discussed in the link. Therefore it seems force, applied by Isreal very possibly, can be the only answer?

    Really, it is a very good link for anyone wanting to understand the mentality of one of the major elements in the problem. http://www.ssc.upenn.edu/polisci/fa.../lustick14.html

    Quote:
    The implication of chosenness is that the transcendental imperatives to which Jews must respond effectively nullify the moral laws that bind the behavior of normal nations. In "Messianic Realism," and other articles, Aviner considers the relationship between history, politics, and redemption. He argues that divine commandments to the Jewish people "transcend human notions of national rights." He explains that while God requires other, normal nations to abide by abstract codes of "justice and righteousness," such laws do not apply to Jews.

    Ours is not an autonomous scale of values, the product of human reason, but rather an heteronomous or, more correctly, theonomous scale rooted in the will of the Divine architect of the universe and its moral order. 7 From the point of view of mankind's humanistic morality we were in the wrong in (taking the land) from the Canaanites. There is only one catch. The command of God ordered us to be the people of the Land of Israel.
    Thus does Jewish fundamentalism utterly reject the traditional Zionist image of Jews as a normal people, bound by and rewarded according to the same laws and principles of national self-determination applicable to other nations.



    Quote:
    The Meaning of Arab Opposition to Israel. As befits an abnormal nation, the conflicts Israel encounters with its neighbors are not normal either. In their analysis of the Arab conflict with Israel, if not always in their propaganda, most Israeli leaders have sought to explain Arab hostility in practical terms-as a conflict that stems from misperceptions or specific circumstances. Accordingly, as those perceptions and circumstances change, opportunities for ending the conflict can materialize and should be awaited, identified, and exploited.

    Gush Emunim views the conflict with the Arabs in a radically different way-as the latest and most crucial episode in Israel's eternal battle to overcome the forces of evil. This stance is illustrated in the words with which Eleazar Waldman-head of the Kiryat Arba Yeshiva, Member of Knesset for the Tehiya party, and prominent student of Rav Tzvi Yehuda-reassured fundamentalist Jews troubled by the outcome of the Lebanon War. By fighting the Arabs, Waldman reminded his audience, Israel carries out its mission to serve "as the heart of the world, in contact with every organ, and with the world understanding that it must receive the blood of life from the heart."



    Quote:
    Jewish fundamentalists' assumptions about the world, however, make it essentially impossible for them to see Jews and Palestinians in comparable terms. Nor can fundamentalists acknowledge any real tie between the Palestinians, or any human group other than the Jewish people, and the Land of Israel. To do so would contradict the prophecy that the Promised Land would "vomit out" any other people that tries to live there, and that only with the return of the Jews would the land again "shoot forth branches, and yield fruit," 11 as a sign of the beginning of the messianic age. Hence, historically unsupportable notions that only under Jewish cultivation did Palestine become a productive country and that most Palestinian Arabs arrived in the area only within the past century are treated as incontrovertible

    Quote:
    The Jews are authorized by the living God and creator of the universe as a legitimate, eternal people with unalienable rights to the entire Land of Israel. The Palestinians have absolutely no legitimate claim to nationhood or to any part of the country. They have experienced no real suffering, and have drawn together as an entity only out of opposition to the Jews. Theirs is a "suicidal" struggle for the elimination of the state and people of Israel. As such, Israel must recognize the Palestinians as the most destructive and dangerous emanation of Arab hostility, and stand ready to destroy them as they seek to fulfill their collective "deathwish."
    "The only thing I've gotten out of this thread is that Navaros is claiming that Satan gave Man meat. Awesome." Gorebag

  2. #2
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Settlers

    They get what they deserve when they are blown to bits.

  3. #3
    Tree Killer Senior Member Beirut's Avatar
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    Default Re: Settlers

    Quote Originally Posted by English assassin
    What are the rights of the settlers in the occupied territories?
    None. They are violent miscreants and thieves who want nothing more than to antagonize the local population ans steal their land and water so they can feel special and create the opportunity to play cowboy and get some trigger time shooting Palestinians.

    Quote Originally Posted by English assassin
    And what should Isreal and the Palestinian Authority seek to do with them?
    Throw them out!
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  4. #4
    Senior Member Senior Member Ser Clegane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Settlers

    Quote Originally Posted by Beirut
    They are violent miscreants and thieves who want nothing more than to antagonize the local population ans steal their land and water so they can feel special and create the opportunity to play cowboy and get some trigger time shooting Palestinians.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony
    They get what they deserve when they are blown to bits.
    We don't want to re-use that big brush in this thread as well to paint the other side of the fence, do we?

    I have some serious doubts that all Israeli settlers and their families in the occupied territories are hellspawn that derserve to be "blown up".

    I expect some more "objectivity"... as would EA like to see in the thread he started, I assume.

  5. #5
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Settlers

    Quote Originally Posted by Ser Clegane
    We don't want to re-use that big brush in this thread as well to paint the other side of the fence, do we?

    I have some serious doubts that all Israeli settlers and their families in the occupied territories are hellspawn that derserve to be "blown up".

    I expect some more "objectivity"... as would EA like to see in the thread he started, I assume.
    Well sorry, but they are. Why relativate ethnic cleansing?

  6. #6
    Senior Member Senior Member Ser Clegane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Settlers

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony
    Well sorry, but they are. Why relativate ethnic cleansing?
    Because we are getting in the same situation as in the other thread - only the other way around. You are judging all settlers by the actions of the most hateful and aggressive ones.

    There is a difference in having the opinion that these settlements should not be were they are and should therefore be removed, and saying that all the people who live in these settlements are monsters that are guilty of ethnic cleansing and derserve to be killed.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Settlers

    is this what they hope to get?


  8. #8
    Tree Killer Senior Member Beirut's Avatar
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    Default Re: Settlers

    I am not, nor would I, say anything negative about the Jews as a people. But the settlers are an extremist element of those people. They know bloody well that what they are doing is hurting people, stealing their land and water, forcing confrontation and destroying any chance of peace.

    I would not condemn any race of people, but regardless of race, anyone who steals from me is a thief. The settlers are thieves. They steal land, steal water, and wander about with guns with the hope of getting some trigger time. They are the equivalent of gang members and they should be thrown out of the occupied territories. Every last one of them.

    Especially the ones in Gaza. What kind of a sadistic moron moves into a painfully overcrowded piece of land with his family and takes over, by force, the best parts and then steals as much water as he can, to the detriment of the locals. And then demands the army set up watchtowers with snipers so he can go about his apartheid existence of plenty amongst the disenfranchised poor.

    Throw the bums out. Every single one of them.
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  9. #9
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Settlers

    Quote Originally Posted by Templar Knight
    is this what they hope to get?

    Well 'to get' is a bit off, 'to take' is more apropiate.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Settlers

    Who planned this greater Israel anyway? or is it just the 'promised' land?

  11. #11
    Senior Member Senior Member English assassin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Settlers

    Especially the ones in Gaza. What kind of a sadistic moron moves into a painfully overcrowded piece of land with his family and takes over, by force, the best parts and then steals as much water as he can, to the detriment of the locals. And then demands the army set up watchtowers with snipers so he can go about his apartheid existence of plenty amongst the disenfranchised poor
    well, that's what was interesting about the article, it explained why they do that. What especially interested me was that they (well, Gush Eminum) do expressly reject any idea that they should behave "normally", so eg an argument that it is obviously unfair than one person should have 100 times more water than another is just considered meaningless if one is a settler and the other an arab. But they do not actually wish harm on the arabs. They simply think God demands that they live there and if an arab happens to be in the way thats too bad.

    This has moved my appreciation on, although not necessarily positively, in that it is obviously good that the objective is not actually the extermination of arabs, but bad that it is apparently the case that no "normal" dialogue is possible. You simply cant talk to someone who says (and give them credit for honesty) "I know by human standards it is wrong to take the land/water, but I must because God commands it". (This is bad also for Isreal of course, its interesting to see the settlers do not appear to regard the current state of Isreal with very much more affection than they do the arabs.)

    There is not much point debating the views of religiious nut jobs, of course, though as I say its helpful to know what they are. I don't suppose anyone on the board is about to say that God really does command these people to live there. I really don't understand yet why the Isreali government, or the Amercians, has chosen to walk down Crappy street for the sake of people who do not accept the basic premises of either state. They, if not the settlers, can be counted on to act rationally, or at least to be open to rational argument. Yet their actions in support of the settlers seem to be bringing danger to the whole of Isreal and making Amercia hated in the whole Muslim world.

    So, why are they doing it?

    (Oh, and, really trying to keep this on topic, could we explain where that map of greater Isreal came from and how it reflects that settlers actually hope for, or else not get too drawn into it please? I wasn't aware that the settlers claimed much more than the current occupied territories)
    Last edited by English assassin; 05-20-2005 at 11:59.
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  12. #12
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Settlers

    And Hitler wasn't so bad, after all he was believing in what he was doing. I don't think the jews really cared about that back then.

  13. #13
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Settlers

    I think we should cut off the settlers' funding in the same way we (try to) cut off the funding of islamist terrorists. Treating them in the same category as the 'other' beards would send a sobering message both to the more reasonable settlers, their sympathizers inside and outside of Israel, and the government in Tel Aviv.
    Last edited by Adrian II; 05-22-2005 at 13:27.
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  14. #14
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Settlers

    Bump
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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Settlers

    I think we should cut off the settlers' funding in the same way we (try to) cut off the funding of islamist terrorists.
    Come on you mean we should stop giving Israel money. We dont Directly fund the settlers. Many ignore the reason we give Israel money is the agreement Carter made . We bribed both Israel and Egypt not to fight eachother. Adrian you dont suggest we break our treaty now are you?
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    Banned Snowhobbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Settlers

    Perhaps he's suggesting a boycott of goods made by the settlers?

  17. #17
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Settlers

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    Come on you mean we should stop giving Israel money.
    No, I said 'settlers' and I mean settlers. Find out how they earn or get their money and cut it off. If we can do it to beards with guns hiding in caves, we can do it to beards with guns hiding behind barbed wire.
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  18. #18
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Settlers

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowhobbit
    Perhaps he's suggesting a boycott of goods made by the settlers?
    No, I'm suggesting to cut off their money supply just like we do with Al Qaida.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

  19. #19
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Settlers

    No, I'm suggesting to cut off their money supply just like we do with Al Qaida.
    How? We give money to the Israelis and they give it to the settlers. I hear almost all of what we gave them last year went to pay for new homes in Israel for those settlers who moved out of the occupied territories.
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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Settlers

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    How? We give money to the Israelis and they give it to the settlers. I hear almost all of what we gave them last year went to pay for new homes in Israel for those settlers who moved out of the occupied territories.
    You farshlepte krenk, you should read more Jewish papers. Here’s how Ha’aretz describes the glorious settler movement. The money for the extremists comes from Dutch Protestant morons, from Jews in Toronto, bingo halls in California, you name it. Stop the funding, seize the funds, prosecute anyone who does business with them.
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  21. #21
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Settlers

    Oh your speaking private money like they used to and may still do for the IRA. It going to be hard to close down a jewish bingo hall. Seperation of church and state you know.


    I can see where these settkers come from. The land they live on was called Judea. Jerusalem is the ancient capital of Israel and even in recent times has been mainly Jewish in population. Much as I sympathise with them , this is wrong. If they really want to live there let the Palestinians have their state and then buy land there. If both countries are free and democratic your religion should be of little consequence in either.
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    Member Member sharrukin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Settlers

    So it's perfectly acceptable for Arab villages to exist in Isreal and to spew hate at the Isreali's and Americans (dancing in the streets when the two towers went down). What is not acceptable is for Jewish nutjobs to live in the westbank regions. Why is that? Why is OK for Arabs to live where they want but not for Jews?
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  23. #23
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Settlers

    Quote Originally Posted by sharrukin
    So it's perfectly acceptable for Arab villages to exist in Isreal and to spew hate at the Isreali's and Americans (dancing in the streets when the two towers went down). What is not acceptable is for Jewish nutjobs to live in the westbank regions. Why is that? Why is OK for Arabs to live where they want but not for Jews?
    So if the promised land was relocated to Canada and you were made a second class citizen you would be okay with that as long as it alleviated Europeans of WWII guilt complex?
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  24. #24
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Settlers

    So if the promised land was relocated to Canada and you were made a second class citizen you would be okay with that as long as it alleviated Europeans of WWII guilt complex?
    Bad analogy as Canada is a soverign nation. Well almost



    Much like Australia I might add
    Last edited by Gawain of Orkeny; 05-23-2005 at 02:58.
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  25. #25
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Settlers

    Not really a bad one particularly if prior groups is used.

    Aborogines for Australia.
    Moa Hunters for NZ.
    Eskimos for Canada (or French perhaps).
    American Indians for the US.

    etc. All it takes is a colonial type power to take over one of these nations and then award the lands to prior inhabitants...
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
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  26. #26
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Settlers

    How about Jews from Israel ? Or Palestine as it is now reffered to.
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  27. #27
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Settlers

    There has been a long time between the orginal nation of Israel and the new nation of Israel. Inbetween quite a few different nations have controlled those lands. From Romans to Ottomans it has changed hands between empires.

    So how is that any different from say France invading Canada and awarding the country to the eskimos who predate the current Canadians?
    Last edited by Papewaio; 05-23-2005 at 03:21.
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  28. #28
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Settlers

    There has been along time between the orginal nation of Israel and the new nation of Israel. Inbetween quite a few different nations have controlled those lands. From Romans to Ottomans it has changed hands between empires.
    Its been a long time since the indians owned america also.The Palestinians NEVER had a government and they are not a peoples. Most of them migrated there recently just like the Jews.

    and this

    American Indians for the US.
    It wasnt the US that took the land from the indians but the French, English and Spanish. We bougth those territories from them. We werent even around until 1776. Was it fair? No? Was it legal. It seems that way. Might indeed does make right when it comes to ownership of land. Again to me its no more than the evolution of man. The better race or species takes over. Only the strong survive. Its the law of nature.
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  29. #29
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Settlers

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    Might indeed does make right when it comes to ownership of land. Again to me its no more than the evolution of man. The better race or species takes over. Only the strong survive. Its the law of nature.
    Don't confuse moral might with technological might.

    Nor confuse 'racial' strength with whom has the best scientists...
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  30. #30
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Settlers

    Im not confused in the least.
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