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Thread: Update on Newsweek story

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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Update on Newsweek story

    FAIR's web site has a tongue-in-cheek article about Newsweek's book-in-the-john affair. I thought I'd copy it here because it reflects some of my views on the un-called for hysterics about the affair. It's not the minor cock-ups that count, either in war or in journalism; it's the big ones that cost lives.

    Newsweek, the Quran and the "Green Mushroom"
    Following the real rules of modern journalism

    Newsweek ran a sensational claim based on an anonymous source who turned out to be completely wrong. While one can't blame the subsequent violence entirely on this report, it's fair to say that credulous reporting like this contributed to a climate in which many innocent Muslims died.

    The inaccurate Newsweek report appeared in the magazine's March 17, 2003 issue, on the eve of the invasion of Iraq. It read in part:

    "Saddam could decide to take Baghdad with him. One Arab intelligence officer interviewed by Newsweek spoke of 'the green mushroom' over Baghdad—the modern-day caliph bidding a grotesque bio-chem farewell to the land of the living alongside thousands of his subjects as well as his enemies. Saddam wants to be remembered. He has the means and the demonic imagination. It is up to U.S. armed forces to stop him before he can achieve notoriety for all time."
    Unlike a more recent Newsweek item (5/9/05), involving accusations that Guantanamo interrogators flushed a copy of the Quran down a toilet, Newsweek has yet to retract the bogus report about the "green mushroom" threat. The magazine's Quran charge has been linked to rioting in Afghanistan and elsewhere that has left at least 16 dead; alarmist coverage like Newsweek's about Saddam Hussein's nonexistent weapons of mass destruction paved the way for an invasion that has caused, according to the best epidemiological research available (Lancet, 11/20/04), an estimated 100,000 excess deaths.

    Newsweek was right to retract the Quran story—mainly because the magazine claimed to have "sources" for the information, when Newsweek's subsequent descriptions of how it acquired the story mention only a single source. But it's far from clear that Newsweek's source was inaccurate in saying that U.S. investigators had uncovered abuse of a Quran in the course of a recent investigation; similar allegations have repeatedly been made by former Guantanamo prisoners (Washington Post, 3/26/03; London Guardian, 12/3/03; Daily Mirror, 3/12/04; Center for Constitutional Rights, 8/4/04; La Gazette du Maroc, 4/12/05; New York Times, 5/1/05; BBC, 5/2/05; cites compiled by Antiwar.com, 5/16/05).

    Denials by the U.S. military that such incidents have occurred mean little; when any government holds prisoners in violation of international law, and denies them access to independent counsel or human rights groups, assertions by that government about how the prisoners are being treated can be given little weight. Eric Saar, a former U.S. Army sergeant who served as a translator at Guantanamo, has accused the Pentagon of engaging in organized efforts there to deceive outsiders: Citing a new book by Saar, the Washington Post reported (4/29/05) that "the U.S. military staged the interrogations of terrorism suspects for members of Congress and other officials visiting the military prison in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, to make it appear the government was obtaining valuable intelligence."

    It's certainly not the case that the Pentagon has been so attentive to Muslim sensitivities that such treatment of a Quran would be unthinkable. The Pentagon's deputy undersecretary for intelligence is Lt. Gen. William Boykin, who is notorious for suggesting that Allah was "an idol" and saying that the United States' enemies were led by "Satan," and would "only be defeated if we come against them in the name of Jesus." It was Boykin who reportedly ordered the coercive interrogation methods used at Guantanamo to be used at Iraq's Abu Ghraib as well (London Guardian, 5/20/04).

    It has been repeatedly said—including by Newsweek itself, in its initial apology (5/23/05)—that the magazine's source erred in saying that the Quran incident was contained in a report for the Pentagon's Southern Command. In fact, the original report said that the incident was "expected" to be in the report—an expectation that could have easily been altered by the fact that the explosive allegation became public.

    Newsweek's retraction of the Quran story, contrasted with the lack of any correction of its "green mushroom" claim and other similarly erroneous WMD coverage, is quite illustrative of the actual rules—quite different from the ostensible rules that are taught in journalism school—that govern contemporary journalism:

    * Anonymous sources are fine, as long as they are promoting rather than challenging official government policy.

    * It's all right for your reporting to be completely wrong, as long as your errors are in the service of power.

    * The human cost of bad reporting need only be counted when people who matter are doing the counting.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Update on Newsweek story

    How does this site get the name FAIR? It seems to have an agenda to me.
    Fighting for Truth , Justice and the American way

  3. #3

    Default Re: Update on Newsweek story

    How does this site get the name FAIR? It seems to have an agenda to me.
    Seems ???? read the "about us" link at the top of their page it spells out their agenda quite clearly

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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Update on Newsweek story

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    It seems to have an agenda to me.
    So do you. Theirs has been more eloquent until now.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Update on Newsweek story

    So do you. Theirs has been more eloquent until now.
    I dont go around trying to claim to be fair or balanced. Im anti liberal and proud of it. I suppose you are though. If your going to call yourself FAIR at least make some kind of attempt at it.
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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Update on Newsweek story

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    If your going to call yourself FAIR at least make some kind of attempt at it.
    If you have an issue with the article, at least try to articulate it. So far you are stating that author is wrong simply because he has a view, which is a ridiculous statement.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Update on Newsweek story

    The article is a lame attempt at humor that only a liberal would enjoy Its funny how these guys jump all over conservatives but when the press(newsweek of coutse is a rightwing rag) getsa it all wrong instead of critizing them, they make lihgt of it and just use it as another excuse to Bash the adminstration. FAIR my a$$. They wrote a big thing about how Rush lied and he tore then a new one.
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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Update on Newsweek story

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    (..) when the press (newsweek of coutse is a rightwing rag) getsa it all wrong, they make lihgt of it.
    Ahem! They assert that Newsweek got it all very wrong, but on a different occasion...
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Update on Newsweek story

    Yes and as you see it was so funny and clever that only I even answered it. As I said a very lame attempt at humor.
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    Member Senior Member Proletariat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Update on Newsweek story

    Give me a break. Because they had an article on WMDs right before the invasion of Iraq that means this latest screw-up is trivial and over-blown?

    I bet everyone slain during the riots with a cynical sense of humor thinks this article is 'hysterical.'

  11. #11
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Update on Newsweek story

    Quote Originally Posted by Proletariat
    Give me a break. Because they had an article on WMDs right before the invasion of Iraq that means this latest screw-up is trivial and over-blown?
    Indeed, the latest 'screw-up' (which I think wasn't one at all) is far, far less serious. Mind you, in both cases an anonymous source was at the root of the trouble, but the first article was never withdrawn and there have been many like that in the American press. That is why a majority of Americans still believe Osama was sitting on Uncle Saddam's lap playing with a live nuke in 2003. I know that even nowadays, many supporters of this war don't worry how and why they were misled by their government in 2002 and 2003. It just goes to show that most lies succeed because people want to believe them.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

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    Member Senior Member Proletariat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Update on Newsweek story

    Quote Originally Posted by AdrianII
    Indeed, the latest 'screw-up' (which I think wasn't one at all) is far, far less serious. Mind you, in both cases an anonymous source was at the root of the trouble, but the first article was never withdrawn and there have been many like that in the American press. That is why a majority of Americans still believe Osama was sitting on Uncle Saddam's lap playing with a live nuke in 2003. I know that even nowadays, many supporters of this war don't worry how and why they were misled by their government in 2002 and 2003. It just goes to show that most lies succeed because people want to believe them.

    1) The US didn't invade based on Newsweek's article. The first botch-job didn't directly cause the 'far, far more serious' loss of life. The second f up directly caused those fatal riots, even if it was the straw that broke the camel's back.

    2) People are dumb. We need a global monarchy.


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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Update on Newsweek story

    Quote Originally Posted by Proletariat
    1) The US didn't invade based on Newsweek's article.
    LOL! Who said they did? What that earlier Newsweek article did was help spread the lies of a U.S. government that was cooking the books to start a war.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Update on Newsweek story

    This is getting very old and tiresome. So its just another Bush lied thread in disguise.

    What that earlier Newsweek article did was help spread the lies of a U.S. government that was cooking the books to start a war.
    We all admit they got carried away. The difference is that some of us think there was no need to exagerate or lie as there was more than enough reason to attack without all this. In fact it was our duty to do so since your beloved UN cant back up its own resolutions. Once more I dissagreed with the invasion but not because Bush lied or as you keep trying to maintain it was illegal. Give it up.
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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Update on Newsweek story

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    We all admit they got carried away.
    Oh, now the buzz word is they got 'carried away'. Carried away by what exactly?
    Give it up.
    You admit your government lied and you say you don't care. That's what I call giving up.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Update on Newsweek story

    Oh, now the buzz word is they got 'carried away'. Carried away by what exactly?
    With trying to convince people like you that the war was needed or legal

    You admit your government lied and you say you don't care. That's what I call giving up.
    No I said they may have exaggerated. I never said I dont care. In fact Ive said it was stupid.
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    Member Senior Member Proletariat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Update on Newsweek story

    Quote Originally Posted by AdrianII
    LOL! Who said they did?
    Your article.

    ...alarmist coverage like Newsweek's about Saddam Hussein's nonexistent weapons of mass destruction paved the way for an invasion that has caused, according to the best epidemiological research available (Lancet, 11/20/04), an estimated 100,000 excess deaths.
    How does this make the outcry over the more recent mistake 'hysterical'?

  18. #18
    Member Senior Member Proletariat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Update on Newsweek story

    If you are saying that F Up One is > than F Up Two, because more lives were lost due to FU1, then you have to think there was an equal causality between the FUs and the lives they're responsible for.

    There isn't an equal causality. Without FU1, Iraq would've been invaded. Without FU2, this instance of rioting would not have occured.

    Can you help me understand what one has to do with the other or why they're being compared here?

  19. #19
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Update on Newsweek story

    FAIR doesn't say that Newsweek paved the way for war, but that alarmist coverage like Newsweek's did.
    Quote Originally Posted by Proletariat
    How does this make the outcry over the more recent mistake 'hysterical'?
    Because a paper that has done a good propaganda job for the government is now accused of left-wing bias. I'm always amused by right-wing Chomsky's who allege that the media is (sic) a left-wing conspiracy.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Update on Newsweek story

    Because a paper that has done a good propaganda job for the government is now accused of left-wing bias.
    Fir then to be doing propoganda for the administration they would have had to know the information was faulty and they willing went along with it. Im sure they were only too glad to admit they were wrong. I know the Times must have enjoyed taking back their support emensely.

    I'm always amused by right-wing Chomsky's who allege that the media is (sic) a left-wing conspiracy.
    Your article is a good example of left wing bias.
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    Member Senior Member Proletariat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Update on Newsweek story

    Quote Originally Posted by AdrianII
    I'm always amused by right-wing Chomsky's who allege that the media is (sic) a left-wing conspiracy.
    Me too. I prefer leaving the foil hats to the more creative minds of the left.

    So you think it's the US mainstream media that caused Operation Iraqi Freedom?
    (Yeah, yeah. Amongst other things.)

    Even if that's true (which I do not believe), how does this negate FU2?

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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Update on Newsweek story

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    Im sure they were only too glad to admit they were wrong.
    As far as I can tell they never did. And no one in Washington ever raised a stink about that article, even though it might well have been, so to speak, the straw that broke the camel's back...
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Update on Newsweek story

    Quote Originally Posted by Proletariat
    Even if that's true (which I do not believe), how does this negate FU2?
    Such answers negate themselves, thank you.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Update on Newsweek story

    As far as I can tell they never did. And no one in Washington ever raised a stink about that article, even though it might well have been, so to speak, the straw that broke the camel's back...
    What are you talking about. You just posted an article where they admit they were mistaken. The Times had big headlines apologising for being mistaken on the run up to the war. Ive never seen them so proud to be wrong.
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    Member Senior Member Proletariat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Update on Newsweek story

    When you have time, could you address my earlier post (#18) before it gets lost? I've had a bad streak recently of posts that I really would like answered getting buried.


    Last edited by Proletariat; 05-22-2005 at 02:21.

  26. #26
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Update on Newsweek story

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    What are you talking about. You just posted an article where they admit they were mistaken. The Times had big headlines apologising for being mistaken on the run up to the war. Ive never seen them so proud to be wrong.
    It wasn't quite clear from your post what you meant. I thought you meant Newsweek retracted the 2003 article, which they didn't as far as I know. And yes, the Times is doing a decent job, as is the Post. They're big papers with a lot of clout and they often use it in impressive ways. Besides, I've come to know some of the Times' staff. I've worked with them on the Khan case, so I was in a position to compare the things they wrote in their paper to the things we discussed and the sources we used on the ground, and they were certainly professionals.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

  27. #27
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Update on Newsweek story

    Quote Originally Posted by Proletariat
    When you have time, could you address my earlier post (#18) before it gets lost? I've had a bad streak recently of posts that I really would like answered getting buried.
    Both FU's were based on an anonymous source. In the first case, the info wasn't checked with a second source. In the second case, it was. In the first case, Newsweek went with the goverment view that Saddam was a clear and present danger to mankind. In the second case, it went against the government's policy to cover up or polish up prisoner abuse. In the first case Newsweek knew it was supporting the drive to war which would cost many lives, because that is what wars do. In the second case, Newsweek could have had no idea that an article about a holy book down the john would trigger such bloody protests and a bigger outcry than was caused by the treatment of prisoners in Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo.

    They made a real professional mistake in the second case though, which I've noticed only after reading the thing closely once more. They wrote that the book/john incident was going to be mentioned in a forthcoming U.S. Army report. Such announcements of forthcoming acts by authorities can be self-defeating in that they give rise to developments that cause the authorities to refrain from the act.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

  28. #28
    Member Senior Member Proletariat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Update on Newsweek story

    Quote Originally Posted by AdrianII
    They made a real professional mistake in the second case though, which I've noticed only after reading the thing closely once more. They wrote that the book/john incident was going to be mentioned in a forthcoming U.S. Army report. Such announcements of forthcoming acts by authorities can be self-defeating in that they give rise to developments that cause the authorities to refrain from the act.
    Interesting.

    I see what you're saying, but I still do not agree about the causality of the two pieces.

    The Debussy is very nice.

  29. #29
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Update on Newsweek story

    Quote Originally Posted by Proletariat
    The Debussy is very nice.
    Good to hear that.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

  30. #30
    Member Senior Member Proletariat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Update on Newsweek story

    What bumper sticker do I go with?


    "Newsweek lied, people died"

    or

    "Newsweek doesn't kill people, Muslims do"

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