EB - Countdown to Open Beta: Arche Seleukeia

**Sheep** · 05-24-2005, 01:26

Just noticing that the upside-down anchor (if that's what it is) does look kind of like a Corinthian helmet at the bottom. I wonder if that's where the vanilla faction icon came from?

**AntiochusIII** · 05-24-2005, 23:27

Nice...

Impressive.

My forum name simply signifies my favourite faction, after all.

And the name is better than Tsorim, which could be disputed as the various social classes of the "Carthaginians" did not actually have a "name" for themselves as we understand it, and several names could be used with no less or more accuracy than each other.

Edit: Thank you, Khelvan. Your decision is wise and respectable.

**khelvan** · 05-24-2005, 23:34

Originally Posted by AntiochusIII

By the way: Khelvan, could you delete (like - delete, not just close) that thread you created? I'm aware of the civil war in TWC (poor, poor Veronans) but you should not bring the issue, even with links, over here to the org. With respect.

This is a fair and valid point. I have locked it. I generally don't delete posts, but this one should probably go, as it will only incite the situation.

I suppose that I also let my emotions get away from me, and felt personally insulted as did the majority of our team members. My purpose was to ensure the community was aware of what was happening, but you're right, I can't let my anger at what happened allow me to make bad decisions. And that certainly was not an appropriate thing to do, so I apologize.

I hope that the decision will not be viewed too negatively, and is perhaps understandable, given that I was as shocked as the rest of you reading these things.

**saulot333** · 05-25-2005, 01:10

Originally Posted by khelvan

I suppose that I also let my emotions get away from me, and felt personally insulted as did the majority of our team members. My purpose was to ensure the community was aware of what was happening, but you're right, I can't let my anger at what happened allow me to make bad decisions. And that certainly was not an appropriate thing to do, so I apologize.

I hope that the decision will not be viewed too negatively, and is perhaps understandable, given that I was as shocked as the rest of you reading these things.

Khelvan, I admire your (and the whole EB team's) maturity. After reading the monster thread about this cursed event at TWC, full of anger, lame excuses and accusations, I found your calm and seriousness incredibly appropriate and admirable. Once again, good job EB.

**Alexander the Pretty Good** · 05-25-2005, 01:28

Yeah khelvan, it's probably for the best that you didn't keep that open and viewable for nutjobs like myself. I got angry.

And like I said, soldier on, EB, soldier on.

**Zero1** · 05-25-2005, 01:32

I too must state that I truly admire the level of maturity EB is demonstrating. I myself after reading what had transpired well, as embaressing as it is to admit blew my stack over at the RTR forum and got suspended. On top of that I was so disgusted with the behavior demonstrated, I uninstalled the mod from my computer in a fit of rage...So don't feel bad for letting your emotions get the better of you Khelvan, I'm a pro when it comes to that. =p

But on the units, they look outstanding, particularly the Hypastisti *love the overhand animation*.

**GMT** · 05-25-2005, 06:03

I'm a longtime lurker and I must say that this mod keeps getting better and better, congrats!

I'm kind of confused about something though. In the recent updates you always seem to show two different maps so I'm wondering which one will be used in the mod.

I don't see how you could use the small one (the one used in RTW) because most of the seleucid territory isn't even on the small map. Same thing with last week's update, none of Baktria's territory is on the small map. So I'm hoping you'll use the big map, if that would be possible.

Anyway, thanks for another great update and keep up the good work!

**Zero1** · 05-25-2005, 06:08

Originally Posted by GMT

I'm a longtime lurker and I must say that this mod keeps getting better and better, congrats!

I'm kind of confused about something though. In the recent updates you always seem to show two different maps so I'm wondering which one will be used in the mod.

I don't see how you could use the small one (the one used in RTW) because most of the seleucid territory isn't even on the small map. Same thing with last week's update, none of Baktria's territory is on the small map. So I'm hoping you'll use the big map, if that would be possible.

Anyway, thanks for another great update and keep up the good work!

I think thats because they use the standard RTW map to do playtesting and ballancing and what not.

**Sheep** · 05-25-2005, 10:20

Originally Posted by Zero1

I think thats because they use the standard RTW map to do playtesting and ballancing and what not.

Not to mention that the official map is still mostly a secret ;)

**LegVIIGemina-Tarraconense** · 05-25-2005, 12:03

I was trying to visualise the images from the seleukid army with a bigger size, but the quality of them decreases a lot

. What I have done is: i) Copy the images and paste them to a word document; ii) Increase their size to make them bigger. But the images loose their quality. What I am doing wrong???

Can anyone help me, please

. For instance, Big_John, How did you manage to get a picture of the thureophoroi with this size and good quality?

**Aymar de Bois Mauri** · 05-25-2005, 12:43

Originally Posted by LegVIIGemina-Tarraconense

I was trying to visualise the images from the seleukid army with a bigger size, but the quality of them decreases a lot

. What I have done is: i) Copy the images and paste them to a word document; ii) Increase their size to make them bigger. But the images loose their quality. What I am doing wrong???

Can anyone help me, please

. For instance, Big_John, How did you manage to get a picture of the thureophoroi with this size and good quality?

Have you tried clicking on the picture?

**Byzantine Mercenary** · 05-25-2005, 12:51

These new units for Seleukeia look realy good, are you going to have larger unit sizes for the less veteren units?
otherwise i fear that people will only use the elite units on custom battles,

**Meneldil** · 05-25-2005, 12:58

That's part of balancing.
If a player can recruit a lot of elite unit and win with such an army, then the game is screwed up.

**The Wizard** · 05-25-2005, 13:29

What? What happened? Civil war? Where's my rifle? And my sabre!

~Wiz

**Lord Tomyris Reloaded** · 05-25-2005, 13:43

Originally Posted by The Wizard

What? What happened? Civil war? Where's my rifle? And my sabre!

~Wiz

Allow me to elucidate:

Two teams of fans, both alike in dignity,
In fair TWC, where we lay our scene,
From ancient grudge break to new mutiny,
Where civitate blood makes civitate hands unclean.
From forth the fatal text files of these two foes
A pair of star-cross'd modifications take their life;
Whose misadventured piteous overthrows
Do with their death bury their supporters' strife.
The fearful passage of their death-mark'd data,
And the continuance of their supporters' rage,
Which, but their modification's end, nought could remove,
Is now the two hours' traffic of our thread;
The which if you with patient eyes attend,
What here shall miss, the quote button shall strive to mend.

**O_Stratigos** · 05-26-2005, 07:44

Hi all

I am one of countless others lurking in this forum watching the development of EB, astonished by the depth of the mod, the enormous amount of research and detail that is invested in it and waiting with baited breath for announcements and the eventual release!! Seen the latest factions preview- the Seleucids- and noticing that you guys go to extraordinary lengths to ensure authenticity and accuracy on everything, I felt that I had to point out couple of things, Greek been my mother tongue, so without prejudice ...

The first one is about the card that says "Babylonian Ruins"; in Greek I believe should read "Babyloniaka Ereipia" instead of "Ereipia Babyloniaka" or alternatively "Ereipia Babylonos" or even "Ereipia tis Babylonos". As it stands, it sounds as what one might call "poor Greek"...

The other one is about the choice of the name “Arche Seleukeia”. I’ve read the post by Teleclos Archelaou several times trying to understand what is meant by the choice between “Basileia” and “Empire” (Autokratoria) and as to why “Arche Seleukeia” was finally chosen, but I must confess I don’t get it..

I am sure you all know that the word APXH- arch, arche, archi- stands for “first”, “original”, “beginning”, also something akin to “the powers that be”(exousia) and it can be used to denote “greatness”; but when the word “arch” is used to signify “first” (as in the “top-one”) or “greatest” like in “archipelagos” or “archangel” and a lot of other Greek words, I believe it implies that it's “first” or “greatest” amongst others, and since there was only one Seleucid Kingdom –Empire, the choice of “Arche Seleukeia” appears quite strange... Pronounced correctly should sound as one word: “Archeseleukeia”, and with all due respect, IMVHO, this is not even “poor Greek” is more like a name just “made up” using these two words.

I believe the linguists in your team will agree that translations from one language to another can result in, some times, almost comical wording and there is no better example than this: “Our Galaxy is called The Milky Way”. To an English speaking Greek this is quite funny, because translated in Greek it means “Our Galaxy is called Galaxy” or “Our Milky Way is called Milky Way”! and who can forget the famous translation from English to Russian made by a computer of: “The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak”!!

Remaining_In_Awe

O_Stratigos

**khelvan** · 05-26-2005, 07:57

I am not one of our Greek speakers, myself, but we do have both native Greek speakers and Ancient Greek speakers on the team. The faction name happens to be Ancient Greek, and while I don't assume you're trying to translate it into modern Greek, until one of our Ancient Greek guys comes along to answer this, that is the best I've got. ;)

**Teleklos Archelaou** · 05-26-2005, 22:15

Originally Posted by o_megas

The other one is about the choice of the name “Arche Seleukeia”. I’ve read the post by Teleclos Archelaou several times trying to understand what is meant by the choice between “Basileia” and “Empire” (Autokratoria) and as to why “Arche Seleukeia” was finally chosen, but I must confess I don’t get it..

I am sure you all know that the word APXH- arch, arche, archi- stands for “first”, “original”, “beginning”, also something akin to “the powers that be”(exousia) and it can be used to denote “greatness”; but when the word “arch” is used to signify “first” (as in the “top-one”) or “greatest” like in “archipelagos” or “archangel” and a lot of other Greek words, I believe it implies that it's “first” or “greatest” amongst others, and since there was only one Seleucid Kingdom –Empire, the choice of “Arche Seleukeia” appears quite strange... Pronounced correctly should sound as one word: “Archeseleukeia”, and with all due respect, IMVHO, this is not even “poor Greek” is more like a name just “made up” using these two words.

I believe the linguists in your team will agree that translations from one language to another can result in, some times, almost comical wording and there is no better example than this: “Our Galaxy is called The Milky Way”. To an English speaking Greek this is quite funny, because translated in Greek it means “Our Galaxy is called Galaxy” or “Our Milky Way is called Milky Way”! and who can forget the famous translation from English to Russian made by a computer of: “The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak”!!

Remaining_In_Awe

O_Stratigos

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"arche" alpha-rho-chi-eta (feminine noun)

II. first place or power, sovereignty (not in Hom.), cf. Hdt.1.6, etc.; Arist.Pol.1284b2 : metaph., of a stroke of fortune, D.21.196: pl., A.Ch.864 (lyr.); S.Ant.744 , etc.: c. gen. rei, S.OT737 ; power over them, Th.3.90, X.Ath.2.7, etc.: prov., Biasap.Arist.EN1130a1, cf. D.Prooem.48; method of government, Th.6.54 .

2. empire, realm, Hdt.1.91, Th.4.128, etc.

3. magistracy, office, Hdt.3.80, 4.147; Id.3.89 ; Th.8.70; D.59.72, etc.; to obtain an office, Id.57.25; Th.1.96 ; Id.6.54 ; Lex ap.Aeschin.1.21; withsg. Noun, Th.4.53 ; term of office, Antipho6.42 ; POxy.119.16 (iii A.D.).

4. in pl., the authorities, the magistrates, Th.5.47 , cf. Decr. ap. And.1.83; Th.6.54; collectively, 'the board', D.47.22, cf. IG1.229, etc.; Antipho5.48 ; but of a single magistrate, PHal.1.226 (iii B.C.); against authority, A.Supp.485; Id.Ag.124 (anap.).

5. command, i.e. body of troops, LXX 1 Ki.13.17, al.

6. pl., heavenly powers, Ep.Rom.8.38, al., cf. Dam. Pr.96; powers of evil, Ep.Eph.6.12, al.

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Seleukeios, -a, -on‚ adjective

A. of Seleucus, IG11(2).203 B 22 (iii B.C.); name of a month at Ilium, OGI212.11 (iv/iii B.C.), Supp.Epigr.4.664.3 (i B.C.): festival of S., IG12(1).6.3 (Ery thrae).

----------------------------
Have posted this elsewhere, but here is the explanation of why using "empire" (for which 'arche' is the closest word and the word attested to used in the Seleukid empire) is the best way to go and hardly "made up":

Contemporary references to the state as both a kingdom 'basileia' and an empire 'arche' exist in loyalty decrees from Ilium - OGIS 219. From Sherwin-White and Kuhrt's "From Samarkhand to Sardis" ('93): (chapter 2: section on 'Defining the Seleucid State') "One factor about the Seleucid kingdom, at least, is indisputable: it was an empire, meeting two of the most basic criteria of imperial rule, i.e. (a) where one state, or central power, encompassing a large territory and incorporating a number of socities, often heterogenous in geography and culture, dominates the others by military conquest and military force, and uses the surpluses of the subordinated 'countries'; (b) there exists some sort of overarching administrative framework, which may be loose or tight. The state is created by conquest (Alexander the Great and Seleucus I) and perpetuated by military constraint (armies, colonies, military expeditions, garrisons), which permits the levy of tribute and service from the subjugated peoples. This broad definition the Seleucid kingdom fits."

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I will see to it that the noun-adjective word order is reversed in the Babylonian description.

**O_Stratigos** · 05-27-2005, 05:27

Impressive references indeed to say the least, especially to an amateur enthusiast like me!! but- and there is always a “but” isn’t there, lol- it looks to me like a kind of a circular argument here, so please indulge me..

I thought scholars would need more than one source-reference to accept something, and because “From Samarkand to Sardis” asserts that the Seleucid Kingdom meets the criteria for an Empire, that does not necessarily makes it so. “(a) where one state, or central power, encompassing a large territory and incorporating a number of socities, often heterogenous in geography and culture, dominates the others by military conquest and military force, and uses the surpluses of the subordinated 'countries'; (b) there exists some sort of overarching administrative framework, which may be loose or tight. The state is created by conquest (Alexander the Great and Seleucus I) and perpetuated by military constraint (armies, colonies, military expeditions, garrisons), which permits the levy of tribute and service from the subjugated peoples.”.
That “episode” in 1066 meets the criteria but does not an Empire make.. OGIS 219 is constantly referring to the “Kingdom” and “King Antiochus, son of King Seleucus” “the King and his sister the Queen” and then someone comes along and says “no no, you are not a Kingdom you are an Empire because you meet MY criteria”..

But this discussion is not about whether the Seleucids where an Empire or not, is about the use of the word APXH “arche”, and obviously here is used having the meaning of: government, low and order, powers that be, exousia etc.
In this case I find it very hard to believe that a scholar or native Greek speaker with some knowledge of Ancient Greek will accept that APXH = AYTOKPATOPIA. The word APXH, APXAI, TON APXON (both Os Omega) refers to the government or whatever power is in control at the time, and it will be a huge leap to accept it as meaning Empire.

TH 4.128 -on the same day he arrived at Arnissa, which is in the dominion of Perdiccas.

Hdt 1.91 For when the god told him that, if he attacked the Persians, he will destroy a mighty empire.

I am not sure if these are what you are referring to, but if they are, since I have no access to the original Greek texts nor the fluency to read them and translate them correctly, I can only speculate ( shame on me)

: If in the original, APXH is for dominion that does not Empire means (sic) and if the text states “he will destroy a mighty APXH” knowing that Persia was a mighty Empire… you can guess the rest

What I am trying to say is that you scholars find mistakes in old translations all the time, but I am far from been qualified to even suggest….

What I meant by, that looks like a “made up” name, was about IF it was one word Archeseleukeia – Arche as in first, greatest etc, then it looked like is “made up”; as the name is obviously made of two words Arche Seleukeia- using Arche as meaning government, exousia or even (

)Empire-, then I think that grammatically you are required to have the second word ending with “s” to signify as to whom Arche denotes to, so I believe it should be ARCHE SELEUKEIAS. But then if we accept ARCHE to mean Empire then it should be SELEUKEIAKH ARCHE, SELEUKEIAKH APXH… after all it was the British Empire not the Empire British.. oh boy..

So what we have is this: using “From Samarkand to Sardis” as a source the Seleucid Kingdom is made an Empire > using APXH to an extreme stretch, the word is made to mean Empire > put the two together the Seleucid Kingdom becomes the Seleucid Empire > hence ARCHE SELEUKEIA!

Hmmm.. it looks circular to me, but then again what do I know...

Please don’t get me wrong, this is YOUR mod and if you say you want to call that faction North Korea or Supercalifragilistic I am all for it..

(just release the friging Beta already!!

lol)

Finally, I must confess I did try to translate Arche Seleukeia to modern Greek or even English, attempting to understand what it means- no luck…- like you guys do with these almost unpronounceable barbarian names and then you go to great lengths to spell the correct pronunciation and translation, especially about what Tsorim is and why the name was chosen.
Now this begs a question: the name Carthage was changed and one of the reasons given is that Tsorim is what they called themselves, so it makes one wonder… what did the Arche Seleukeis (Seleukeides?) called themselves…

Still_Remaining_In_Awe

O_Sratigos

**Idomeneas** · 05-27-2005, 20:14