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Thread: WWI paper

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    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default WWI paper

    “Why was the First World War protracted and indecisive? Why did the Allies eventually win?”

    5 pages on this using robert grave's book Goodbye To All That

    oh yea

    the US shouldnt have invaded iraq
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    Senior Member Senior Member Ser Clegane's Avatar
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    Default Re: WWI paper

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
    (just so this post is allowed to stay in the backroom)
    If you think that you will get more information in the Backroom than in the Monastery that's fine with me - I just wonder why you would think so?

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: WWI paper

    Quote Originally Posted by Ser Clegane
    If you think that you will get more information in the Backroom than in the Monastery that's fine with me - I just wonder why you would think so?
    Because of what I am going to say now, USA SUXORZZZZ OMGLOL!!!

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    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: WWI paper

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony
    USA SUXORZZZZ OMGLOL!!!
    OMG you are so toooootaly right
    "That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
    -Eric "George Orwell" Blair

    "If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
    (Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
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    |LGA.3rd|General Clausewitz Member Kaiser of Arabia's Avatar
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    Default Re: WWI paper

    World War One was indecisive mainly due to the following reasons:
    1. The strategies used by generals echoed the strategies used in the Napoleonic wars
    2. In trench warefare, there is no decisive victory. Almost no assault is sucessful.
    3. THE COMMANDERS WERE IDIOTS! I mean, read up on the Somme. Yeah.

    And the allies won because:
    1. Industrial support by the United States
    2. They outnumbered the Austro-German-Turk-Bulgarians.
    3. In 1917, both sides were tired. However, a fresh influx of American soldiers with new supplies gave the allies an obvious edge over the tired and battered Germans.

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    Forum Lurker Member Sir Moody's Avatar
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    Default Re: WWI paper

    and dont foget the Financial side as well - While the allies wernt very Rosy the Germans were totally bankrupt and couldnt continue to support the war effort

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    Nec Pluribus Impar Member SwordsMaster's Avatar
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    Default Re: WWI paper

    Oh, well, as usual, the americans won the war for us europeans. what your going to do...
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    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: WWI paper

    Well, I wouldn't say the US won the war singlehandedly. But Capo has a point. Both alliances had fought themselves to a standstill, and then one side got an infusion of new capital, weapons & manpower. That had to help.
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    Nec Pluribus Impar Member SwordsMaster's Avatar
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    Default Re: WWI paper

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    Well, I wouldn't say the US won the war singlehandedly. But Capo has a point. Both alliances had fought themselves to a standstill, and then one side got an infusion of new capital, weapons & manpower. That had to help.

    With the same success you could blame the allies winning on the Russian revolution or Brusilov's breakthrough. It is never 1 circumstance, and as TW players you should know, its the sum of all circumstances that forced the war to one side or the other.

    As I said before, do you REALLY think that without american weapons the allies wouldnt have won eventually? They controlled the seas just as well, only it would have taken them maybe a bit longer.
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    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: WWI paper

    As I said before, do you REALLY think that without american weapons the allies wouldnt have won eventually? They controlled the seas just as well, only it would have taken them maybe a bit longer.[/QUOTE]

    Which american weapons? The American troops had to be equiped by the French and the British. The arrival of the American on the Battle Field shows to the Germans an endless futur supply of men and material...
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    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: WWI paper

    I actually really don't think the Allies would have prevailed anyways. I'm not saying that out of Patriotism. But the Russians had withdrawn, leaving France & England fighting Germany, Turkey & Austria. I don't think they could have prevailed. It would have gone on a lot longer, and some territory would have been swapped, but there wouldn't have been a clear 'victor'. Based on how well the peace terms of the actual war turned out, perhaps this wouldn't have been such a bad thing.
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    Nec Pluribus Impar Member SwordsMaster's Avatar
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    Default Re: WWI paper

    Which american weapons? The American troops had to be equiped by the French and the British. The arrival of the American on the Battle Field shows to the Germans an endless futur supply of men and material...
    And what does it matter to a fortified trenchline? Just another few thousand rounds of machine gun ammo and another few thousand km of barbed wire.


    About weapons, I just said it to make the point.

    actually really don't think the Allies would have prevailed anyways. I'm not saying that out of Patriotism. But the Russians had withdrawn, leaving France & England fighting Germany, Turkey & Austria. I don't think they could have prevailed. It would have gone on a lot longer, and some territory would have been swapped, but there wouldn't have been a clear 'victor'. Based on how well the peace terms of the actual war turned out, perhaps this wouldn't have been such a bad thing.
    Well, I think they would have. Both France and England had access to almost unlimited resources in the form of huge empires with nearly infinite manpower should they need it. Yeah, of course it would have taken a bit longer to train divisions in India or Vietnam and then ship them to Europe, but they would have done it if they were forced to.

    The decomposition of the Russian army allowed the germans to march deep into russian territory thus stretching their supply lines and drawing more and more men to keep those supply lines viable. Even after peace was signed, the germans had a fair bit of new territotries to pacify, control, and exploit and that drew a good bit of resources too.
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    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: WWI paper

    Okay, well, you learn something new every day. America played an extraneous role in WWI and has no business talking about playing a role in it. I'm sure that'll make you feel better, now let's move on to other topics.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
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    Resident Northern Irishman Member ShadesPanther's Avatar
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    Default Re: WWI paper

    It's more that America gave the huge potential for the Germans to be crushed, they knew it so they decided to get out of the war before that and get favourable terms.

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    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: WWI paper

    Oh no, no, no Shades. Just ask Swords... the French and the Brittish already had the Germans ready to surrender. We just showed up, marched around in a few parades and took credit for essentially doing nothing.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
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    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: WWI paper

    Quote Originally Posted by SwordsMaster
    With the same success you could blame the allies winning on the Russian revolution or Brusilov's breakthrough. It is never 1 circumstance, and as TW players you should know, its the sum of all circumstances that forced the war to one side or the other.

    As I said before, do you REALLY think that without american weapons the allies wouldnt have won eventually? They controlled the seas just as well, only it would have taken them maybe a bit longer.

    who knows, if the americans showed no sign of entering the war, maybe the later offensives of the germans wouldnt have happened as they wouldnt have seen themselves as running out of time (thus taking mind boggling chances)

    the mistakes wouldnt have been as disasterous for them

    and maybe the french army would have collapsed first

    it is all speculative

    the american arrival into the war most deffinately tipped the scale andwon the war



    if someone throws a basketball from across the court when the score is 15-17 with 2 seconds left on the clock and wins the game by a point, they most definitely won the game

    but they wouldnt have instantly won if the game wasnt so close already
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    This comment is witty! Senior Member LittleGrizzly's Avatar
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    Default Re: WWI paper

    Oh no, no, no Shades. Just ask Swords... the French and the Brittish already had the Germans ready to surrender. We just showed up, marched around in a few parades and took credit for essentially doing nothing.

    he didn't say you did nothing, infact he said you quickened victory, i happen to agree...
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    Default Re: WWI paper

    As I said before, do you REALLY think that without american weapons the allies wouldnt have won eventually? They controlled the seas just as well, only it would have taken them maybe a bit longer.

    I recently read an essay that basically said the Germans were planning on utilizing the vast farming regions they won from russia and the food shortages that were the main factor in German surrender would be alleviated.

    I think the US made a huge impact on the outcome of WW1 - not so much the fighting, but the outcome.

    Of course WW1 really isnt my forte, so who knows?

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    Nec Pluribus Impar Member SwordsMaster's Avatar
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    Default Re: WWI paper

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    Oh no, no, no Shades. Just ask Swords... the French and the Brittish already had the Germans ready to surrender. We just showed up, marched around in a few parades and took credit for essentially doing nothing.
    Oh, sorry for having an opinion. I meant yeah, of course, the US saved the world again as they always do. Where would the world be without the US hand to guide us through the darkness, and I wonder how did the world survive without the US for thousands of years.

    How will we ever pay you back for all the times you protected us, stupid and lowly non US peoples?

    he didn't say you did nothing, infact he said you quickened victory, i happen to agree...
    Exactly. Thanks.

    I recently read an essay that basically said the Germans were planning on utilizing the vast farming regions they won from russia and the food shortages that were the main factor in German surrender would be alleviated.
    Well, yes, but that wouldnt be possible immediately. It would have been years before the germans could establish a food supply to the front in France from the devastated russian lands. Im not saying the plans were not there, just that it wouldnt be a short term goal.

    Besides, the main german problem, as in WWII was oil. They had no oil supply for tanks, planes and trucks, and thus were forced into a defensive war. The russian territories didnt have oil either.
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    Senior Member Senior Member English assassin's Avatar
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    Default Re: WWI paper

    looking for the middle ground, once the USA was in the war germany was bound to lose (see if you can find anything on the offensives planned for 1919) but if you can find the statistics for the numbers of American troops actually in the line and fighting by the time the Germans were in retreat in 1918 its pretty modest compared to the French and the British (empire). But that wasn't the guy's question.

    The reason the war went on so long was IMHO essentially technological. At that period defensive technology was simply in the ascendency. If you can get you hands on John Keegan's book "the face of battle", reading his account of the Somme will tell you all you need to know. Specifically, read his account of the British artillery fire programme (redleg this would interest you I imagine) which shows how even the largest barrage ever fired was wholly inadequate to neutralise well constructed trench lines. he is also good on machine guns and "industrial war" generally.

    Add to this the fact that the railway network enabled the defender to concentrate troops behind a sector that was going to be attacked in hours (and the artillery fire needed to cut the wire, never mind try to destroy the bunkers, meant the defender had days of warning, not hours), whereas the attacker would have to move his second phase troops to exploit any bridgehead accross miles of shell-ploughed land, usually under artillery fire.

    As for why the allies won, the effect of four years of blockade on germany was pretty severe IIRC. but essentially I think they simply had more men.
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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: WWI paper

    Anyone who claims the allies would have won either WW1 or WW2 without US aid is is just in denial. Weve been over this a thousand times. No the US didnt win either war alone nor did it provide the majority of soldiers in either war. It was however the determining factor in both of these wars for the allies winning,.

    but if you can find the statistics for the numbers of American troops actually in the line and fighting by the time the Germans were in retreat in 1918 its pretty modest compared to the French and the British (empire). But that wasn't the guy's question.
    Ive posted these before but cant find them now. They in fact say just the opposite of what you do. It shows that the Germans had nore guns per mile than the allies until the US troops came online at which point the allies gained a huge advantage and that US troops held 25% of the line. Most likely the British would have starved before the Germans due to U boats if not for US help in that area of the war.
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    One of the Undutchables Member The Stranger's Avatar
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    Default Re: WWI paper

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiser of Arabia
    World War One was indecisive mainly due to the following reasons:
    1. The strategies used by generals echoed the strategies used in the Napoleonic wars
    2. In trench warefare, there is no decisive victory. Almost no assault is sucessful.
    3. THE COMMANDERS WERE IDIOTS! I mean, read up on the Somme. Yeah.

    And the allies won because:
    1. Industrial support by the United States
    2. They outnumbered the Austro-German-Turk-Bulgarians.
    3. In 1917, both sides were tired. However, a fresh influx of American soldiers with new supplies gave the allies an obvious edge over the tired and battered Germans.
    yup that's right. the germans were actually winning till the americans came in. and the generals were idiots indeed, best example is the somme

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    One of the Undutchables Member The Stranger's Avatar
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    Default Re: WWI paper

    till 1917 it 0-0 with the germans winning. when russia withdrawed, the soldiers on the eastern front could go to the west. the german weapons were far more advanced so without the weapons of the americans the allies were already in a disadvantage. so if the americans didn't helped at all the germans would have crushed the allies. but because the advantage of no eastern front and better weapons couldn't be exp[loited cuz the americans came in with fresh and mobilized troops. while the german troops were tired. also the blockade helped the germans loosing the war. the citizens were starving and eventually turned against their kaiser. there was no destroyed house in germany cuz the war never got that far.

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    Resident Northern Irishman Member ShadesPanther's Avatar
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    Default Re: WWI paper

    http://home.versatel.nl/rene.brouwer/
    stats on men mobilised and casulties

    http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWcosts.htm
    Shows Costs in Dollars

    http://users.tibus.com/the-great-war/figures.htm
    Shows British Army (interesting that cavalry numbers increased in 1918 compared to 1914)


    http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/historyonline/us32.cfm

    scroll down to bottom of page for stats

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    Senior Member Senior Member English assassin's Avatar
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    Default Re: WWI paper

    Ive posted these before but cant find them now. They in fact say just the opposite of what you do. It shows that the Germans had nore guns per mile than the allies until the US troops came online at which point the allies gained a huge advantage and that US troops held 25% of the line. Most likely the British would have starved before the Germans due to U boats if not for US help in that area of the war
    I'll see if I can turn anything up on the troop numbers off line tonight at home. A brief trawl of the web showed that the Americans were holding six miles in total of the line at the time of the last serious German offensive in March 1918, (and not the six miles that were attacked either) with all the American other troops in France still in training, but it was an Australian regimental website and whilst I've no reason to suppose it is inaccurate I'd like to find something a bit less obscure.

    The U Boat war was won by introducing convoys and rationing in 1917, not by the USN.
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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: WWI paper

    The U Boat war was won by introducing convoys and rationing in 1917, not by the USN.
    At the time the United States entered the war the enormous toll of shipping gathered by the U-boat in the East Atlantic and the boast of von Hindenburg that the submarine blockade of England would starve her out and win the war, indicate the seriousness of the naval situation in those waters at that time.

    Inasmuch as the principal field of British naval activities was the North Sea and English Channel, the task of breaking the U-boat blockade in the Atlantic naturally became the immediate mission of the United States Navy. The prompt dispatching of destroyers, yachts, and all other available craft of a type useful against the submarine to the East Atlantic, and the splendid work these vessels and others later sent to augment their strength have done in cleaning up these waters of U-boat devastation is a matter of record, the importance of which in winning the war is conceded from all quarters. This was the first step in preparation for sending the United States Army overseas.
    LINK

    I'll see if I can turn anything up on the troop numbers off line tonight at home. A brief trawl of the web showed that the Americans were holding six miles in total of the line at the time of the last serious German offensive in March 1918, (and not the six miles that were attacked either) with all the American other troops in France still in training, but it was an Australian regimental website and whilst I've no reason to suppose it is inaccurate I'd like to find something a bit less obscure.
    Well I found mine on a WW! website but I cnat remember how. It was about how in 1916 the russians were out of the war and the germans were sending the armies from the east west. The Germans were making their largest advances since the start of the war. The French had routed and the British were exahusted. Only the US forces stopped the Germans and allowed the French to rally. It went on to give statistics on the effect of the AEF on the final battles of WW1.
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    Senior Member Senior Member English assassin's Avatar
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    Default Re: WWI paper

    well I never thought I would say it but I think that's maybe unfair on the French. As best i can make out for now French and Empire troops defeated the last offensives, although its true American forces then came into the line in increasing numbers in the counterattacks.

    I've done a bit better now:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/special_r...r_i/206154.stm
    http://www.channel4.com/history/micr...view_1918.html
    http://www.channel4.com/history/micr...merican_2.html

    This seems to me to be glory enough for the US surely:

    The United States' entry into the war made ultimate Allied victory certain. America's contribution to the Allies' success was not the direct result of anything it did on the battlefield, but lay in its vast potential. Following the failure of the 'Michael Offensive', which drained the already depleted German resources, the prospect of endless supplies of American men, money and munitions flooding into Europe completely obliterated all hopes of a German victory
    The U-boat successes increased steadily in March (560,000 tons) and in April 1917, when the USA finally declared war on Germany, reached its peak with 860,000 tons. In May, however, the numbers of the sunk tonnage dropped to 616,000 tons, because the British Admiralty was finally able to convince itself to introduce the only really working counter measure against the U-boat threat: the convoy system. Of the 16,693 merchant vessels being escorted from May 1917 to November 1918 in one of the 1,134 convoys, 99% safely reached their destination. Although sinkings in June increased again to 696,000 tons, the drooping numbers of July (555,000 tons) were already foreshadowing the final outcome. It was the convoy system, which finally rendered the unrestricted campaign as unsuccessful and led to the defeat of Germany.
    Article: http://uboat.net/history/wwi/part5.htm
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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: WWI paper

    It was the convoy system, which finally rendered the unrestricted campaign as unsuccessful and led to the defeat of Germany.
    Guess who escorted most of the convoys after 1917? Ill give you a hint it wasnt Britain.
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    Senior Member Senior Member English assassin's Avatar
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    Default Re: WWI paper

    Well, you are just messing with me now, you KNOW its not going to be easy to find statistics showing who escorted what ships.

    Anyway I am not trying to say the USN did nothing I am taking issue with the claim that Britain would most likely have starved but for American action in the U boat war.
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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: WWI paper

    Anyway I am not trying to say the USN did nothing I am taking issue with the claim that Britain would most likely have starved but for American action in the U boat war.

    Maybe not in WW1 but most likely in WW2
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