New Historical Civilizations!!!

[Sargon of Akkad]

Occitan lyrics and the dynamics of ancestral makeup?
LOL

Fascinating!

I dont know what they have to do with the original topic but the last 15 posts or so were very interesting.

I love how in this forum, the most random question can become an interesting perhaps quasi scholarly discussion of some obscure subject.

Keep up the good work

[anonymous_joe]

Problem is, there's a limited number of factions in rtw, so you can't add in who you want. Hence, no Portugese, no Irish, none of the smaller peoples.

Not that us small ones would be integral to the game though. I can't see any benefit to the game in having an Irish faction, even if I'd love making Tara the capital of the world It's just of no value for anyone not Irish.

Same with the Portugese, there'd be a lot less demand from non-Portugese people for a Portugese faction, though I sympathise with their wishes.

Anyway, let's not forget game balance, a Portugese people would only start with 1, max 2 provinces, which would hardly lead to a dramatically balanced game, would it?

[Sarcasm]

Who said it should be? We did well enough, me thinks......

[Ranika]

A number of factions only start with one or two provinces. That isn't much of a problem, really. Factions that start with huge numbers of provinces often have early managerial problems, though they can be held together. However, a small starting faction can begin very focused, and is very viable. As such, the number of provinces a faction starts with is relatively unimportant in deciding what factions are used.

[bodidley]

even if I'd love making Tara the capital of the world It's just of no value for anyone not Irish.

Whoa, what about the Scottish? We're Hibernians too

[Ranika]

Gaels (technically Goidils at the time) hadn't invaded Caledonia yet, so no Scots existed. Goidils had only recently conquered Mann in this period, and while there is evidence some migrated to Caledonia, the large scale invasions that would eventually form Scots hadn't occured yet.

Also, Tara wasn't a city at this time. It was just a temple complex with a small outlying town. More important were Menapia, Ivernis, Nagnata, and Eahmain Macha.

[bodidley]

Gaels (technically Goidils at the time) hadn't invaded Caledonia yet, so no Scots existed.

Exactly my point, if they hadn't invaded Caledonia, then they would still be on Hibernia.

[Ranika]

But then we wouldn't call them Scots. We'd call them Irish, if we used modern terminology. Though, the English called the Scots Irish for centuries (they had a tendency to lump people together by their common ancestors; even the Manx, who had a huge number of Norse ancestors, were called Irish). Additionally, though, Scots do have Caledonian ancestors; why wouldn't you wish to play as Caledonians too? Aside from their being remarkably primitive with almost no armor and poor quality weapons in this period. You could make Attuaca the capitol of the world! And with your remarkably unadvanced system of politics, you could use brute force to control everything.


...Caledonians would be kind of fun, for the sake of having a barbarian faction almost exactly the way fantasy and jack asses portray all barbarians. They rely pretty much on pure brute strength to enforce rule, they have very simplified concepts of everything (as far as we can tell), and they'd have to use ambush and horde tactics to do much. It'd be a bit fun. We will have one, hopefully two or three, Caledonian units though to kick around. I will play as the Britons, purposely loose all my land except Caledonia (once I conquer Caledonia), and just hurl Caledonian thugs at people. That's a game, damn it.

[bodidley]

Of course the ancestry of any modern European people is diverse, but I was simply replying to the statement "It's just of no value to anyone who's not Irish" because the Irish are not the only people descended from Hibernians. I think we all know better than to call a Scotsman an Irishman

[Ranika]

Oh, right. Actually, we did consider Goidils; they were comparatively united and well-off in this period, but aside from shore raids and conquering Mann, they did little until the Roman conquest of Britain (which was followed by the setting up of huge numbers of Irish slave colonies along the British coast, a large raiding invasion at the request of the recently formed Picts, as well as large migrations; the latter kingdoms of Cumbria and Regydd both had substantial Gaelic populations because of this), and the conquest doesn't occur within our period, so it seems needless to use them; by that point, they'd become steadily more disunited anyway, which, due to territorial claims and the like, eventually led to the Ulaidi invading what would become Dal Riada.

[anonymous_joe]

Problem is the Irish (Gaels even) didn't really go in for cities much at this time.

And Gael/Goidil wasn't our name at that stage. That's the Welsh word for, I think "wild man" in reference to the Irish penchant for massive slave raids on poor defenceless Roman-less Welsh people.

To be fair, the Irish wouldn't add much, as we were principly a chariot and single combat people.

Still, the Irish, (and our Scottish cousins) might enjoy playing as themselves. And I'll make sure to use the Celtic units.

Btw, will Lusitanian provinces give us any troops that would benefit a Viriathus-esque style of ambushing and guerilla warfare?

[Sarcasm]

Btw, will Lusitanian provinces give us any troops that would benefit a Viriathus-esque style of ambushing and guerilla warfare?

Certainly, but bear in mind that Lusitanians were fully capable of defeating a Roman Legion in open battle. Actually, they did, and won.

[anonymous_joe]

Ok. Cool.

[Ranika]

Actually, chariot war wasn't that popular in Ireland except in modern Ulster and some of the flatter regions. The rest of Ireland was just too much of a logistical pain in the ass to use them as anything but a sign of wealth or power. Also, the Goidils did fight in large numbers, not just single combat, and Goidil was their own name; Goidilic war actually degenerated into less organized war during the 300s-600s; before hand evidence shows huge numbers engaging in large battles, and not usually with other Goidils (as they had been substantially more unified, though they did engage in ritual tribal war, which WAS single combat); they had other enemies, which they recorded in their stories, often with decent accuracy (such as Caledonian raiders, raiders from Britain, etc., all of which they tended to destroy, though some of the Caledonians they gave a parcel of land for turning on their 'allies', which explains the presence of a completely different culture in a small section of Ulster). The Welsh took the name Goidiluae (Goidil) from them (a huge amount of what we call 'Welsh' has substantial Gaelic influence); it was a bastardization of an Iberian name by most accounts, as a large number of the early Goidils came from Iberia. It simply came to mean 'wild men' in the old Welsh because of how the Welsh associated them (as raiders). Also, the Goidils did have cities; several of them. Menapia was a huge trade city (burned by the vikings), Eahmain Macha was of massive size (mostly destroyed during the 200s, then ravaged by the vikings later, etc., but, hey, Navan is still kicking), Nagnata was pretty big, but then completely destroyed at some point, Brege was large, but destroyed and Dublin built over it, and Ivernis was also huge, and survived into the middle of the dark ages when it was burned. There were a few other main cities, but they weren't near the size, and more or less just large towns, but the Goidils were capable of city building (though Nagnata was actually a Belgic-Celtic place originally, not Goidilic-Celtic).

The decision to not include the Goidils hinged largely on expansion. They completed their conquest and the subsequent 'Gaelicization' of Ireland and Mann in this period, but they didn't do anything else important on the scale we're displaying. The Casse (Britons, who would've been replaced) at least exercised defacto control over southern Britain near the end of the period, though that fell apart before the second Roman invasion.

[bodidley]

Certainly, but bear in mind that Lusitanians were fully capable of defeating a Roman Legion in open battle. Actually, they did, and won.

Of course, many of the "barbarians" that are popularly considered inferior soldiers to the Romans challenged and defeated them in open battle on many occasions. Even Sparticus' slave revolt defeated Roman armies in pitched battle (though many of those slaves were captured warriors, so they had distinct advantages compared to most slave revolts).

[Sarcasm]

Not to mention they were green, small and poorly led armies.

[Dux Corvanus]

Not to mention they were green, small and poorly led armies.

If they were blue and small I would think they were the Smurfs, but being green... That's flu.

[Sarcasm]

LOL


....or those little green men from Moby's video!

[anonymous_joe]

Actually, chariot war wasn't that popular in Ireland except in modern Ulster and some of the flatter regions. The rest of Ireland was just too much of a logistical pain in the ass to use them as anything but a sign of wealth or power. Also, the Goidils did fight in large numbers, not just single combat, and Goidil was their own name; Goidilic war actually degenerated into less organized war during the 300s-600s; before hand evidence shows huge numbers engaging in large battles, and not usually with other Goidils (as they had been substantially more unified, though they did engage in ritual tribal war, which WAS single combat); they had other enemies, which they recorded in their stories, often with decent accuracy (such as Caledonian raiders, raiders from Britain, etc., all of which they tended to destroy, though some of the Caledonians they gave a parcel of land for turning on their 'allies', which explains the presence of a completely different culture in a small section of Ulster). The Welsh took the name Goidiluae (Goidil) from them (a huge amount of what we call 'Welsh' has substantial Gaelic influence); it was a bastardization of an Iberian name by most accounts, as a large number of the early Goidils came from Iberia. It simply came to mean 'wild men' in the old Welsh because of how the Welsh associated them (as raiders). Also, the Goidils did have cities; several of them. Menapia was a huge trade city (burned by the vikings), Eahmain Macha was of massive size (mostly destroyed during the 200s, then ravaged by the vikings later, etc., but, hey, Navan is still kicking), Nagnata was pretty big, but then completely destroyed at some point, Brege was large, but destroyed and Dublin built over it, and Ivernis was also huge, and survived into the middle of the dark ages when it was burned. There were a few other main cities, but they weren't near the size, and more or less just large towns, but the Goidils were capable of city building (though Nagnata was actually a Belgic-Celtic place originally, not Goidilic-Celtic).

The decision to not include the Goidils hinged largely on expansion. They completed their conquest and the subsequent 'Gaelicization' of Ireland and Mann in this period, but they didn't do anything else important on the scale we're displaying. The Casse (Britons, who would've been replaced) at least exercised defacto control over southern Britain near the end of the period, though that fell apart before the second Roman invasion.

Yeah, schooling's gone downhill in Ireland.

I bow to your superior knowledge, I don't think Eamhain Macha was supposed to be massive though, what I hear is it was a palace, along the lines of Mycenae, rather than an actual city, though I could be wrong.

On chariots, I'm not certain, but I think that they were used by noble warriors as a form of "taxi" to get them to battle, at least in the more ritualistic ceremonial battles.

By small group of foreigners in the north do you mean Donegal, ie. Dún na nGall - Fort of the Gauls (meaning foreigners)

I do know that the Táin mentions similare cultures in nearby areas, such as Scotland, and mainland Gauls, mentioned relating to places warriors and traders visited.

But hey, you're the expert.

[Ranika]

Eahmain Macha was the colloquial name of the city the fortress was constructed in. The formal name of the city was so long people felt it unnecessary to say it, and the fortress was so impressive it was easier to remember. It was the palace of the high king, and an impressive fortification. In its prime, it's estimated that it could probably stop a cannonball in its walls; pretty impressive considering it was mainly made of wood and packed dirt with a little stone. The high king's office only held direct control over two regions; Eahmain Macha (and the city around it), and the hill of Teamhaidh (Teamhair/Tara), since it was the coronation hill of the king. Otherwise, all other issues were done through subservient sub-kings (which, at one point, broke apart from one another, forming the more recognizable fractured Ireland, though the ghost of the high kingship remained for centuries).

Chariots were used as a status symbol in the form of a 'taxi', yes, but the Volunts and their under tribes (like the Ulaidi and such) in modern Ulster fought in chariots in the same manner as Britons, as did some of the Kintaris and Bolgia (Belgic Celts in modern Connacht; from them come 'Firbolgs', from the name for particularly vicious Bolgia warriors called Fer Bolgia).

Dún na nGall is one place; it's mentioned in the epic of Troidhan. Troidhan (the conqueror of Mann) needed heavy cavalry, so he asked the Gauls for assistance (since they were actual Gauls, not Goidils of Gallic extraction). The Gauls sent for aide from the mainland and got him some better cavalry (since most Goidilic cavalry was more for skirmishing and harassing than shock). The place wasn't just home to the 'Gauls' we recognize, but also housed small communities of Brigantes, Belgae, and Cruithne (hence the foreigner connotations).

The Goidils had their own private colonies along the coasts of Gaul and Britain; just trade things really. Likewise, Britons and Gauls (and even Romans, later, though they may have just been following the British tradition) had trade centers/forts in Ireland, to conduct peacable trade. Used forts though, usually, because, even when the Goidils were united under one king (and not just in title like during the dark ages, but actually united), there were problems in Ireland (as there were in most places), with thieves, bandits, and all manner of upstarts. The necessity to have a good fortification capable of withstanding at least a minor attack was apparent.

[anonymous_joe]

Alright cool. That all makes sense.

[Ranika]

In reference to single combat, the Goidils and early Gaels were very similar to the latter Japanese in a sense; they formed extensive schools dedicated to types of combat and formalized duelling martial arts (Cu Chullain attends one run by a woman in every version of his legend, though what weapon he is training in varies, though it's usually a spear plus something else, though some exist where he doesn't learn how to use a spear, and others exist where he only learns to fight with a spear). That does imply a great deal of single combat, and the kind of majestic, almost cinematic quality of single combat made it more popular in stories. If you ever read the historical epics, and not the legends, things can be much more boring, from an 'action' aspect. They mostly talk about what you'd expect any history of battle and war to talk about; numbers, positions, tactics, more numbers, manuevers, types of weapons and armor used, etc.; they lacked a human feel to them, because they weren't for entertainment or inspiration. They were just histories, and they weren't nearly as popular as hero epics. It's a lot like comparing watching an action movie to a documentary. Many people would definitely opt for the further than the latter. It's just more interesting to the common man because you get idealized characters, and hyped up situations, and so on. While duelling was extremely common in Ireland (and most other Celtic societies, for that matter), it's made out to be much more important than it actually was, because it's built up in legendary sources so much. Actual battles, if mentioned at all, are relegated to the background, because they lack the color or flare of a single champion defeating dozens of enemies in honorable methods in formal ritual duels.

[anonymous_joe]

I've studied the Táin. Cú Chulainn is trained in all conventional martial weapons, he also uses the "Gae Bolga" bolg is stomach as Gaeilge, and the Gae Bolga is supposed to tear someone apart from the inside, though no specific details exist regarding what it actually exists, all that is known is it is some kind of weapon, wielded only by the boy/teenage warrior Cú Chulainn.

[Ranika]

The gae bolga is based on a real weapon (and I speak Irish, so I don't know if the translations are for me or others). A type of barbed dart, it could be balanced on the foot and rammed up into the stomach (a kind of anti-charge tactic), and then yanked out; the barbs would pull out the innards. It could also be thrown as normal, and used as a thrusting weapon (usually in the left hand, in place of a shield). Several were found in a burial south of Sligo, though, that was fairly recent; subsequently, new accounts from between 500-1050 AD report their use, though it notably dwindles to such a rare occurence it's reported with amazement by 1050.

Edit; I should note, even in earlier accounts, it's not depicted as 'common' by any means, and likely a very specialized weapon only a few soldiers would bother to carry; it likely developed first as a duelling weapon.

[anonymous_joe]

The Irish was for anyone who doesn't speak it. The gae bolga has always seemed strange, it was described as uniquely as Cú Chulainn's in the Tain though wasn't it? What were the later examples like?

Whatever happens, I'm looking forward to a few historically accurate Gaelic units, a slight improvement from Dark Age gallowglasses and Bonnachts.

[Ranika]

Being described as 'unique' doesn't necessarily mean it was literally so. It was an awkward weapon, probably used by combat enthusiasts of a sort, who were inclined to learn to fight with awkward weapons, maybe as a form of showmanship. The dart in question is essentially a 1/3rd scale javelin, with a wide head, with barbed hooks running along the lower part of the head. They're blade as well, on the side that'll stab inward, but the alternate side would be blunt, so the hooks would catch, instead of cut, when it was pulled out.

And I agree. Viking Invasion was irritating in so many ways.

[bodidley]

Eahmain Macha was the colloquial name of the city the fortress was constructed in. The formal name of the city was so long people felt it unnecessary to say it, and the fortress was so impressive it was easier to remember. It was the palace of the high king, and an impressive fortification. In its prime, it's estimated that it could probably stop a cannonball in its walls; pretty impressive considering it was mainly made of wood and packed dirt with a little stone. .

*ahem* "La Paz"

Considering that fortresses in the gunpowder age changed their focus to dirt it seems to make sense to me. Force=(change in velocity)/Time so anything that would increase the amount of time involved in the impact would decrease the force (the difference between falling down on a pillow or on a cement floor, for example).

I have a question Ranika. If the Picts were a non-Celtic culture then is it possible that they were some sort of vestige of the pre-Celtic culture of the British isles?

[Ranika]

I never said I knew much about fortress building, but it still impresses me. Anyway, on the Picts, yes, it's possible. There are a lot of theories about the Picts though, so saying 'yes, definitely' or 'no, definitely not' is not really possible. The southern Picts we'd surely consider Celts (since fleeing Britons integrated there, so even if the Caledonians hadn't been Celtic there before, the huge influx of Britons would surely shift their culture); the northern Picts it's hard to say. 'Pict' is a catchall term for tribes that had been in a confederacy to fight the Romans, and eventually formed a few kingdoms, then united and made a kingdom we often just call 'Pictland', since we don't know what they called it (odd, considering we know the names of the lesser kingdoms that formed it). It's important not to think Picts = Caledonians; the Picts formed out of necessity, and a mix of cultures. Gaelic-blooded settlers (not the Dal Riadan invasion, they'd come later) and British refugees helped form the Pict confederacy, and the Pict culture. Caledonians, I personally, do not think of as being Celts. At least not in the north. Again, the lowland Caledonians may have been, on account of constant interaction with Britons. The northern Caledonians I'm fairly sure weren't.

[Spongly]

The Gae Bolg, I believe is supposed to be a sort of magical weapon, given that it also never misses a target it's thrown at, and unless I'm mistaken can only be used when standing in water. It is certainly based on types of barbed Irish spears, but THE Gae Bolg is as uniquely CuChullain's weapon as Excalibur was Arthur's (a bad example, I guess, given that several other heroes carry weapons with staggeringly similar names, but you get the point...)

[Spongly]

Oh, as for the Picts and Celts question, the Picts, we can be pretty sure, spoke a Celtic language, and therefore are Celts in the only sense in which that term is at all meaningful. Their "racial" background is undetermined, and will probably remain so, and I really can't see that it matters much. "Celt" is more of a cultural and linguistic grouping anyway, and a pretty loose cultural one at that.