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  1. #1
    Member Member sam's Avatar
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    I live in portugal a great country if you don't know it already !! Portugal has a very old history coming back to 1000 BC , with the Lusitans a celtic people!! My great regret is that in every game (
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    Default New Historical Civilizations!!!

    In Every Total War In Europe Portugal Is Not Integrated As A Civilization ,it Is Always A Rebel Country Or A Part Of Spain!!1
    In Rtw Portugal Was Called Lusitania And It Was An Ethnical Civilization Independent Wich Had Several Victories Against The Spanish Tribes , Carthage Or Even The Mighty Romans.
    Around 100 Bc It Even Conquered The Iberian Peninsula And Threathened Rome Itself!!!
    So If In This New Mod Of Rtw (europa Barbarum) You Want A More Historical Gameplay You Should At Least Put The Lusitanian Faction As Independent And Not A Part Of Spain. It's Capital City Is Scallabis Wich By The Way Never Was A Spanhish Town But Always A Lusitanian Town.
    Another Fact Wich Proves The Importance Of This Civilization :
    When The Peninsula Was Conquered By The Romans It Was Divided In Three Parts , One Of These Parts Was Called Lusitania

  2. #2

    Default Re: New Historical Civilizations!!!

    I guess the problem is, as always, the limited slots which could be used for the factions...Lusitania could well be a good faction to add but not if the cost is axing Briton or Sarmatia, for example

  3. #3
    Tovenaar Senior Member The Wizard's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Historical Civilizations!!!

    Lusitania is part of the Iberian faction because, historically, and mind you I am generalizing to an extent, it was no different from the Celtiberians of the plateau at the center of the peninsular.

    Lusitania was so Celtic, so to say, that there was actually a distinctly Celtic tribe living in the northeastern part of the region, called the Celtii.

    As I said, I have been generalizing. The forces commanded by the commander you speak of, Viriatus, were largely composed of the Celtiberian Lusitanians. However, in the southern part of Lusitania, there was a tribe (of which I forget the name) which was under influence of the Iberian culture nearby, in the Baetica region. This was a culture which was more urban, less tribal, and above all more influenced by the Carthaginians (since the 3rd century BC) than the Celtiberians to the north.

    And Viriatus never threatened Rome. True, he defeated a few legions, but his was only a rebel incursion which was brought to heel after nearly a decade.

    Romans were a people which could be horrifyingly cruel to those that had opposed them, but also surprisingly benevolent. In the case of Lusitania, which was part of the province of Hispania Ulterior until the rule of Augustus, or perhaps even later, until the second half of the 1st century AD, it was the latter. For their spirit, which never seemed to die down, they were granted their own province. But the Romans were also pragmatic. Lusitania, as a province separate from Hispania Ulterior, could be more easily monitored and managed by its own governor. In any case, their cultural identity had little to do with it, for modern Portugal at the time was mostly Celtiberian, and for a small part Iberian in character.

    The Portuguese culture itself came into being as a separate entity from the other cultures and languages in the peninsular when the Germanic Suebi (Swabians) moved in, in the 5th century AD. Their kingdom was absorbed by the Visigothic kingdom in the 7th century, but by then they had already made their mark on the region they had settled in (roughly modern Portugal, but also a sizeable portion of Galicia).



    ~Wiz
    Last edited by The Wizard; 05-23-2005 at 15:15.
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    Not Just A Name; A Way Of Life Member Sarcasm's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Historical Civilizations!!!

    Ehum......I should really dispute this......it has serious some misconceptions.....maybe later.



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  5. #5
    Tovenaar Senior Member The Wizard's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Historical Civilizations!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarcasm
    Ehum......I should really dispute this......it has serious some misconceptions.....maybe later.
    Hum... so the Lusitani really were more different than I assumed? Tell me more -- I demand it. Or are you talking of the first post? I hope so, for my sake

    And Dux Corvanus, I think was talking of the Conii. They lived in what is now known as the Algarve. Although I am no expert on Lusitania.



    ~Wiz
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    VOXIFEX MAXIMVS Member Shigawire's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Historical Civilizations!!!

    Useless trivia:

    Portugal is a continuation of the Latin name for a city called "Portus Cale", which means "the Port of Cale" (Cale being a settlement in the area).


    "To know a thing well, know its limits. Only when pushed beyond its tolerances will its true nature be seen." -The Amtal Rule, DUNE

  7. #7
    Egomaniac sexpert Member Dux Corvanus's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Historical Civilizations!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by The Wizard
    Hum... so the Lusitani really were more different than I assumed? Tell me more -- I demand it. Or are you talking of the first post? I hope so, for my sake
    Well, in fact, Lusitani were not Celtiberians, at least, they had significant cultural differences, although they were related by means of Celtic influence.

    What they did not, is singing fados or making bacalao (cod fish) recipes. Not did the Cassi take tea at five o'clock, nor the Romans ate spaghetti.

    To take back our modern concepts of state and national identity to ancient peoples who just lived where we live now, is simply a wrong way, and the most simple instrument of nationalistic governments to radicalize national feelings by the manipulation of History.

    It's like saying the Neanderthal Man was a German. Not long ago, when the Otztal man was discovered, some Austrian tabloids rushed to publish the news as "The first Austrian". Not much later, when they discovered the finding was just some meters inside the Italian frontier, the Italian magazines joyfully displayed: "The first Italian". Now, there's a bitter polemic about where must the frozen guy rest, according to his 'nationality'. But, believe me: the poor murdered guy didn't know what the f**k Austria or Italia were, nor did he speak German nor Italian, because... those things didn't exist, and the Alps were just big mountains around the valley where he lived.

    Here in south Spain, in Andalusia, the local government excites continuously the pride of the Andalusian citizens with the glories and excellence of muslim Omeyan culture. You know, common places about delightful gardens, sensitive poets, higienic baths, translation of the classics, three religions living peacefully -most of all is a manipulated cr*p. (Believe me, I work for the Andalusian Ministry of Culture) Now I hear guys blaming the 'evil dirty northern Christians' for destroying such a brilliant culture... forgotting that the 'evil northern Christians' are mostly their ancestors, the ones who took the muslims' lands and cities and exiled them to North Africa.

    I myself I'm a modern Cantabrian. Should I dare claiming myself as the descendent of the brave warriors that fought August's legions?

    Nay. My ancestors come from all parts of Spain and Europe. Ancient Cantabrian people was defeated, anihilated, sold as slaves. The survivors mixed with Romans and other peoples, travelled, came and went, their blood dispersed all over the world. How many modern Cantabrians can look at an ancient Cantabrian depiction and say 'daddy'?

    None.

    Nationalism based in ancient History just sucks.

  8. #8
    Tovenaar Senior Member The Wizard's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Historical Civilizations!!!

    I fully agree with you.

    Here in the Netherlands, the national myth is that we descend straight from the tribe of the Batavii. Which is not true -- the core of our nation, the provinces of South and North Holland, are inhabited by people who descend from the tribe of the Frisii.

    Now, the Frisii were a tribal confederation which was very old, and which expanded in the time of the Great Migrations. Its tribes lived all along the Waddenzee, which is that part of the North Sea which runs from the 'corner' between Denmark and Germany to the southernmost of the islands of the Netherlands, Texel. Their main territorial advance, if one could even call it that, was into what is now Noord- and Zuid-Holland. Subsequently this tall, fair-skinned tribe forms the basis of the people from the provinces of Holland. And that is only those two provinces, I haven't even begun about the other fourteen. And that for such a small piece of land

    Personally one could call me a Frank. This is for two reasons: my family on my mother's side are Huguenots, thus they come from France, in this case Southern France, around Toulouse. They stayed pretty French in character, since where they live there is a large amount of people of Huguenot descent. The second reason is because my family on my father's side comes from the southern Netherlands, which was part of the Frankish heartland of Austrasia (its name under the Merovingians and Carolingians, but the region itself, and its Frankish character, existed long before Clodovech came along) from the time the Franks became foederati of the Roman Empire in the fifth century AD. And to say that 'part' of me is purely Frankish is bullocks -- the Franks mixed with Celts, Romans, and anything else they found in Austrasia at the time. And the term 'pure' is a wrong word to begin with, but I use it because of the lack of alternatives.

    But, mind you, that's the so-called 'ethnic' character of myself. The term itself is biased, but I simply mean of which peoples the blood which runs in my veins descends. And no-one can claim that is pure, for that is an impossibility. Pure itself is a wrong term anyways. In any case, being technically a Frank (with 25% Jewish blood as well; yes, I'm a mixed bag ), my nationality is Dutch. And even that isn't fully true -- I was born and grew up on the Dutch Antilles. Now there's a brain-teaser, isn't there?



    ~Wiz
    Last edited by The Wizard; 05-23-2005 at 20:54.
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  9. #9
    Father of the EB Isle Member Aymar de Bois Mauri's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Historical Civilizations!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dux Corvanus
    What they did not, is singing fados or making bacalao (cod fish) recipes.
    Bacalhau.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dux Corvanus
    To take back our modern concepts of state and national identity to ancient peoples who just lived where we live now, is simply a wrong way, and the most simple instrument of nationalistic governments to radicalize national feelings by the manipulation of History.

    It's like saying the Neanderthal Man was a German. Not long ago, when the Otztal man was discovered, some Austrian tabloids rushed to publish the news as "The first Austrian". Not much later, when they discovered the finding was just some meters inside the Italian frontier, the Italian magazines joyfully displayed: "The first Italian". Now, there's a bitter polemic about where must the frozen guy rest, according to his 'nationality'. But, believe me: the poor murdered guy didn't know what the f**k Austria or Italia were, nor did he speak German nor Italian, because... those things didn't exist, and the Alps were just big mountains around the valley where he lived.

    Here in south Spain, in Andalusia, the local government excites continuously the pride of the Andalusian citizens with the glories and excellence of muslim Omeyan culture. You know, common places about delightful gardens, sensitive poets, higienic baths, translation of the classics, three religions living peacefully -most of all is a manipulated cr*p. (Believe me, I work for the Andalusian Ministry of Culture) Now I hear guys blaming the 'evil dirty northern Christians' for destroying such a brilliant culture... forgotting that the 'evil northern Christians' are mostly their ancestors, the ones who took the muslims' lands and cities and exiled them to North Africa.
    HE!HE!HE! Very true. Bias according to political agendas is paramout everywhere you look in these days.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dux Corvanus
    I myself I'm a modern Cantabrian. Should I dare claiming myself as the descendent of the brave warriors that fought August's legions?
    Your ascendecy might even have some Roman blood.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dux Corvanus
    Nay. My ancestors come from all parts of Spain and Europe. Ancient Cantabrian people was defeated, anihilated, sold as slaves. The survivors mixed with Romans and other peoples, travelled, came and went, their blood dispersed all over the world. How many modern Cantabrians can look at an ancient Cantabrian depiction and say 'daddy'?

    None.

    Nationalism based in ancient History just sucks.
    HE!HE!HE! Good points.

  10. #10
    Egomaniac sexpert Member Dux Corvanus's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Historical Civilizations!!!

    Aymar and Sarcasm -who are Portuguese- can give you better explanations than me. Anyway, I must state that using prerroman cultures as basis for a nationalistic feeling is totally pointless. Actual Portuguese are not Lusitanian, the same that Spanish are not Celtiberian, nor are the British Britons.

    Thousands of years have passed, many peoples and cultures have settled here and there making a complex ethnic mosaic, so we can't recognize ourselves in peoples and cultures that were before us just because they were in the same place we are now.

    Specially in Western Europe, national feelings are based in events which happened after the fall of Roman Empire, and more precisely, in early and medium Middle Ages.

    1) Portugal and Spain are not in the game. They didn't exist yet. There were a number of Celtic and Mediterranean cultures that dwelled in the peninsule, and we call with the generic name of Iberia.

    The story of Portugal as the nation we know today starts when the early Kings of Asturia and Leon founded the County of Portugal as a frontier mark with the muslims around the 9th century AD. Alphonse VI of Castile gave the County to Henry of Burgundy, his son-in-law, in 1095. After Alphonse VI's death, Henry of Burgundy soon claimed autonomy in 1109, and in 1139, Alphonse Enriques, his son, took the title of King of Portugal, and anounced an independence that was in fact effective since decades before.

    Soon, Portugal adquired the unique characters that distinguishes it from any other nation in Europe, and fought fiercely to keep its independence. From the 14th to 18th centuries it was a colonial power of the first order, and played a crucial role in European History and the age of Discoveries.

    But, what was the role of Portugal in 272 BC? The same that Spain or France: none. They didn't exist.

    2) Asuming that Viriato's Lusitans 'conquered the whole peninsula and threatened Rome' is plainly exagerated and painfully misinformed. No peninsular native culture got so far, nor even tried.

    3) Scallabis was not Spanish nor Portuguese, it was Lusitan.

    4) When the Romans conquered the peninsule, they divided it in two provinces: Hispania Citerior and Hispania Ulterior. It was not until 27 AD that Agripa formed Lusitania from Hispania Ulterior in order to put it under a praetor and better kick the rebellious local asses, while the other part (Baetica) was put under consular administration because of its high degree of integration in the Roman world.

    5) There is no such thing as "ethnical civilizations", unless you're talking about III Reich.

    6) English does not use capitals for every single word.

    @ Wizard: The southern tribe you talk about are the turdetani, cultural inheritors of the Tartessos civilization.

  11. #11
    Father of the EB Isle Member Aymar de Bois Mauri's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Historical Civilizations!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dux Corvanus
    Aymar and Sarcasm -who are Portuguese- can give you better explanations than me. Anyway, I must state that using prerroman cultures as basis for a nationalistic feeling is totally pointless. Actual Portuguese are not Lusitanian, the same that Spanish are not Celtiberian, nor are the British Britons.

    Thousands of years have passed, many peoples and cultures have settled here and there making a complex ethnic mosaic, so we can't recognize ourselves in peoples and cultures that were before us just because they were in the same place we are now.

    Specially in Western Europe, national feelings are based in events which happened after the fall of Roman Empire, and more precisely, in early and medium Middle Ages.

    1) Portugal and Spain are not in the game. They didn't exist yet. There were a number of Celtic and Mediterranean cultures that dwelled in the peninsule, and we call with the generic name of Iberia.

    The story of Portugal as the nation we know today starts when the early Kings of Asturia and Leon founded the County of Portugal as a frontier mark with the muslims around the 9th century AD. Alphonse VI of Castile gave the County to Henry of Burgundy, his son-in-law, in 1095. After Alphonse VI's death, Henry of Burgundy soon claimed autonomy in 1109, and in 1139, Alphonse Enriques, his son, took the title of King of Portugal, and anounced an independence that was in fact effective since decades before.

    Soon, Portugal adquired the unique characters that distinguishes it from any other nation in Europe, and fought fiercely to keep its independence. From the 14th to 18th centuries it was a colonial power of the first order, and played a crucial role in European History and the age of Discoveries.

    But, what was the role of Portugal in 272 BC? The same that Spain or France: none. They didn't exist.

    2) Asuming that Viriato's Lusitans 'conquered the whole peninsula and threatened Rome' is plainly exagerated and painfully misinformed. No peninsular native culture got so far, nor even tried.

    3) Scallabis was not Spanish nor Portuguese, it was Lusitan.

    4) When the Romans conquered the peninsule, they divided it in two provinces: Hispania Citerior and Hispania Ulterior. It was not until 27 AD that Agripa formed Lusitania from Hispania Ulterior in order to put it under a praetor and better kick the rebellious local asses, while the other part (Baetica) was put under consular administration because of its high degree of integration in the Roman world.

    5) There is no such thing as "ethnical civilizations", unless you're talking about III Reich.

    6) English does not use capitals for every single word.

    @ Wizard: The southern tribe you talk about are the turdetani, cultural inheritors of the Tartessos civilization.
    I couldn't have said it better.

    One little trivia though: Scallabis only gained real importance in Roman times.

  12. #12
    Father of the EB Isle Member Aymar de Bois Mauri's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Historical Civilizations!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by The Wizard
    Lusitania is part of the Iberian faction because, historically, and mind you I am generalizing to an extent, it was no different from the Celtiberians of the plateau at the center of the peninsular.

    Lusitania was so Celtic, so to say, that there was actually a distinctly Celtic tribe living in the northeastern part of the region, called the Celtii.
    Sorry, but, although with Celtic cultural influence, many of their gods and traditions were indegenous. They considered the Celticii living in the soutern area of Lusitania and Carpetanii (to the east) as descendants of Celtic invaders and the Vetonii (eastern Lusitania), Conii(southern Portugal) and Turdetanii as indegenous like themselves. We have to recognize, however, that Lusitanians possessed many celtic cultural influences and like many others tribes intermingled somehow with early celtic invaders (circa 800BC - Hallstatt period IIRC).

    You can find more info here:



    Quote Originally Posted by The Wizard
    As I said, I have been generalizing. The forces commanded by the commander you speak of, Viriatus, were largely composed of the Celtiberian Lusitanians. However, in the southern part of Lusitania, there was a tribe (of which I forget the name) which was under influence of the Iberian culture nearby, in the Baetica region. This was a culture which was more urban, less tribal, and above all more influenced by the Carthaginians (since the 3rd century BC) than the Celtiberians to the north.
    4 tribes in the southern vicinity of Viriatos power area in those days. Celticii, Conii, Turdelanii and Turdetanii.

    And the Celtiberians (Oretanii, Carpetanii, Arevacii, Lusonii, etc...) considered themselves different from the Lusitanian tribes.

    You can find more info here:



    Quote Originally Posted by The Wizard
    And Viriatus never threatened Rome. True, he defeated a few legions, but his was only a rebel incursion which was brought to heel after nearly a decade.
    Viriatos threatening Rome is just fantasy. He treatened Roman power in the peninsula for a decade, after many humiliating defeats inflicted on the Roman legions.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Wizard
    Romans were a people which could be horrifyingly cruel to those that had opposed them, but also surprisingly benevolent. In the case of Lusitania, which was part of the province of Hispania Ulterior until the rule of Augustus, or perhaps even later, until the second half of the 1st century AD, it was the latter.
    Sorry but you are completelly mistaken. That "benevolent" action was unavoidable and imposed by two main factors:

    -The constant rebellions in the area, when under Roman administration.
    -The several treaties enforced by Viriatos on Rome in earlier times, enforced them to take in to consideration other administrative approaches after conquest.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Wizard
    For their spirit, which never seemed to die down, they were granted their own province. But the Romans were also pragmatic. Lusitania, as a province separate from Hispania Ulterior, could be more easily monitored and managed by its own governor. In any case, their cultural identity had little to do with it, for modern Portugal at the time was mostly Celtiberian, and for a small part Iberian in character.
    Please do not incurr in the mistake of confusing Portugal with Lusitania. They are different areas with just a central common part. The Lusitania area wasn't mostly celtiberian. In fact, that is a bit of a stretch. It was a mantle of several cultural, religious and ethnic influnces. But prodominantly indo-european. The area that Portugal presently ocuppies had that and typically Celtic areas as you can see in the first map. So, we can say 50% of each influence in the area that Portugal ocupies today.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Wizard
    The Portuguese culture itself came into being as a separate entity from the other cultures and languages in the peninsular when the Germanic Suebi (Swabians) moved in, in the 5th century AD. Their kingdom was absorbed by the Visigothic kingdom in the 7th century, but by then they had already made their mark on the region they had settled in (roughly modern Portugal, but also a sizeable portion of Galicia).

    ~Wiz
    That is true also. But there was already distinction between the different areas of the peninsula back in Viriatos time. They still exist today although many alterations mixed the process even more throughout the times. "Spanish" is an optimistic concept if used in anything more than in a very general way.

  13. #13
    Tovenaar Senior Member The Wizard's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Historical Civilizations!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Aymar de Bois Mauri
    Sorry but you are completelly mistaken. That "benevolent" action was unavoidable and imposed by two main factors:

    -The constant rebellions in the area, when under Roman administration.
    -The several treaties enforced by Viriatos on Rome in earlier times, enforced them to take in to consideration other administrative approaches after conquest.
    As I said right after I said it could have been an example of Roman benevolence... personally I realized the former was probably bullocks while the pragmatic approach was so Roman that it had a large chance of being correct.

    Please do not incurr in the mistake of confusing Portugal with Lusitania. They are different areas with just a central common part. The Lusitania area wasn't mostly celtiberian. In fact, that is a bit of a stretch. It was a mantle of several cultural, religious and ethnic influnces. But prodominantly indo-european. The area that Portugal presently ocuppies had that and typically Celtic areas as you can see in the first map. So, we can say 50% of each influence in the area that Portugal ocupies today.
    Do not worry, I did not. I merely mentioned 'modern Portugal' as a region to show the approximate area where the Lusitani lived.

    And as I deduce from the map you provided, Lusitania was in south under Turtedanic influence (in the modern Algarve), in the approximate center (not completely though) under the influence of the confusing nomer of 'Iberian', and in the north under Celtiberian influence, which was, IIRC, not that very much different from Iberian.

    What I did not know, however, was that the region was already culturally distinct, to an extent, in the day.

    And I called Lusitania 'so Celtic' because there was a distinctly Celtic tribe (of course not the same as the Celts of the La Tène culture, but apparently more distinctly Celtic than their Celtiberian cousins) living inside it, the 'Celtii' in my post, by which I meant the Celticii. These Celticii were not part of the Halstatt migrations, but came later, when the mainland Atlantic Celts had advanced into their La Tène culture, correct? Which might explain their more distinctly Celtic nature.

    In any case, I by no means meant to say that Lusitania was predominately under Celtic influence.



    ~Wiz
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    Eric B. & Rakim, I Know You Got Soul

  14. #14

    Default Re: New Historical Civilizations!!!

    Occitan lyrics and the dynamics of ancestral makeup?
    LOL

    Fascinating!

    I dont know what they have to do with the original topic but the last 15 posts or so were very interesting.

    I love how in this forum, the most random question can become an interesting perhaps quasi scholarly discussion of some obscure subject.

    Keep up the good work


  15. #15
    Member Member anonymous_joe's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Historical Civilizations!!!

    Problem is, there's a limited number of factions in rtw, so you can't add in who you want. Hence, no Portugese, no Irish, none of the smaller peoples.

    Not that us small ones would be integral to the game though. I can't see any benefit to the game in having an Irish faction, even if I'd love making Tara the capital of the world It's just of no value for anyone not Irish.

    Same with the Portugese, there'd be a lot less demand from non-Portugese people for a Portugese faction, though I sympathise with their wishes.

    Anyway, let's not forget game balance, a Portugese people would only start with 1, max 2 provinces, which would hardly lead to a dramatically balanced game, would it?

  16. #16
    Not Just A Name; A Way Of Life Member Sarcasm's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Historical Civilizations!!!

    Who said it should be? We did well enough, me thinks......



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    -- Oscar Wilde

  17. #17
    Dungalloigh Brehonda Member Ranika's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Historical Civilizations!!!

    A number of factions only start with one or two provinces. That isn't much of a problem, really. Factions that start with huge numbers of provinces often have early managerial problems, though they can be held together. However, a small starting faction can begin very focused, and is very viable. As such, the number of provinces a faction starts with is relatively unimportant in deciding what factions are used.
    Ní dheachaigh fial ariamh go hIfreann.


  18. #18

    Default Re: New Historical Civilizations!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by anonymous_joe
    even if I'd love making Tara the capital of the world It's just of no value for anyone not Irish.
    Whoa, what about the Scottish? We're Hibernians too

  19. #19
    Dungalloigh Brehonda Member Ranika's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Historical Civilizations!!!

    Gaels (technically Goidils at the time) hadn't invaded Caledonia yet, so no Scots existed. Goidils had only recently conquered Mann in this period, and while there is evidence some migrated to Caledonia, the large scale invasions that would eventually form Scots hadn't occured yet.

    Also, Tara wasn't a city at this time. It was just a temple complex with a small outlying town. More important were Menapia, Ivernis, Nagnata, and Eahmain Macha.
    Ní dheachaigh fial ariamh go hIfreann.


  20. #20

    Default Re: New Historical Civilizations!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranika
    Gaels (technically Goidils at the time) hadn't invaded Caledonia yet, so no Scots existed.
    Exactly my point, if they hadn't invaded Caledonia, then they would still be on Hibernia.

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