Greatest National Figure

[ICantSpellDawg]

nation:USA

greatest figure:the guy who went back in time and killed the a**hole who invented the onion (the vegetable, not the funnypaper)

calvin coolidge
i have always had a hard time finding a national hero

[Franconicus]

Bismarck was a genius who created Germany as we now know it out of the states. He put Germany in the strong position it was at the beginning of the 20th century which subsequent leaders lost.

Robert E. Lee was offered a chance to fight on the winning side but chose to fight for his homeland and his way of life- and did a damned good job of it to. I respect that.

I agree with your describtion. However, Bismarck's state had some drawbacks: it was militaristic, not very democratic, it accepted war as a legal mean of politics, it was quite isolated (he humbled France). I know he could handle that. But the politicians after him could not. And so the final result was desastrous. Nevertheless he was a great man. But Germany is a great country with a great history. So I do not agree that he is the greatest national figure.

[Franconicus]

Don't forget Freidrich der Große, Wilhelm I, Rommel, Guderian, von Braun, etc etc. BTW Freud was Austrian .

I did not. Friedrich was on war all the time when he died the population was reduced and poor. If you like these kind of things take Karl the Great (or Charlemagne). He was much greater than Friedrich! Wilhelm I, not such a big thing. He had a good Kanzler. Rommel and Guderian? Good military leaders. That is all. Freud? If you count him as German - yes, absolutely!

[Somebody Else]

UK

Greatest figure? Me - just wait a few years.

Otherwise, I'd say William Pitt the younger is a pretty strong contendor - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Pitt_the_Younger

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Would you believe thats Orson Wells?

[Adrian II]

Would you believe thats Orson Wells?

Sure, why not? I recognised him immediately. And he was superb. Why you asking?

[Husar]

I agree with your describtion. However, Bismarck's state had some drawbacks: it was militaristic, not very democratic, it accepted war as a legal mean of politics, it was quite isolated (he humbled France). I know he could handle that. But the politicians after him could not. And so the final result was desastrous. Nevertheless he was a great man. But Germany is a great country with a great history. So I do not agree that he is the greatest national figure.

Yes, his state was militaristic, but the militarism was widespread and needed, it was not as much as in the following years and he didn´t want to conquer anything after he established Germany, he didn´t even crush Austria after he won the war, neither did he include it in Germany, like even some Austrians wanted.
It was not very democratic, that´s correct, but today we have democracy here and it´s going down all the time because they always make a compromise(No I´m not generally against democracy, but sometimes it just doesn´t seem to work as advertised).
It accepted war as a legal means of politics, that´s also correct, but he did it just until Germany was a nation, after that he used diplomacy trying to prevent further wars and wars have often been considered legal means of politics, that´s nothing special.
But if you say Germany was isolated, then you don´t understand his politics, because one of his main aims was to isolate France by allying with as many other european nations as possible. He made contracts with Austria, Russia and Italy and he led negotiations for some other treaties in the mediterranean. Bismarck always wanted an alliance with Great Britain, but they refused as long as he was chancellor(they came and asked for one later, but Wilhelm II and his followers refused).

The only thing that was disastrous about his politics was that Wilhelm II changed everything, made it more militaristic and aggressive, wanted colonies, said some stupid unsensitive things, renewed no treaties except those with Austria, and generally worked towards a big war, that he finally got.(well, the other nations wanted it as well)
Bismarck was critisizing Wilhelm II a lot, but he didn´t have any power anymore, I seriously think you can blame him for what happened in WW I and you can´t judge him by modern standards.

[Franconicus]

Husar,

I do not think that we have not the same position. He was a great man. All I was trying to say is that in the nation he created were the roots for the terrible things that happend later. You might not blame him for that. Right. But he did not change the world for good. And I think there were Germans that deserve the tile Greatest National Figure much more than he.

[KukriKhan]

All my favorite US 'greatest national figures' have been picked, so I'll reach way back to my grandmother's Shawnee grandmother, and pick Tecumseh.

His almost-implemented dream of a united native confederation to halt the encroaching europeans (and their successors, the americans), I believe, demonstrates the kind of self-determination all nations aspire to. He should never have allied with Britain in the 1812 war.

[PanzerJaeger]

I agree with your describtion. However, Bismarck's state had some drawbacks: it was militaristic, not very democratic, it accepted war as a legal mean of politics, it was quite isolated (he humbled France). I know he could handle that. But the politicians after him could not. And so the final result was desastrous. Nevertheless he was a great man. But Germany is a great country with a great history. So I do not agree that he is the greatest national figure.

I think you and I may have different opinions about nations that are militaristic, not very democratic, and accept war as a legal means of politics.

When combined with a leader such as Bismarck, those things arent so bad - at least they werent for Germany until other leaders failed to learn from him.

[Franconicus]

I think you and I may have different opinions about nations that are militaristic, not very democratic, and accept war as a legal means of politics.

When combined with a leader such as Bismarck, those things arent so bad - at least they werent for Germany until other leaders failed to learn from him.

O.K.. I understand that you think he is great. And I cab agree to that even though I might not be so enthusiastic. But do you really think there is no greater person in the whole German history. I prefer Martin Luther. You may have another priority than I have. What about Arminius, you know the guy that defeated the Romans. Or Karl the Great. Conquert whole Europe and created Germany and France. And stopped the muslim! or Ferdinand Porsche. Did not only built great cars but also great tanks . Or Prinz Eugen. ....
Do you really think Bismarck is the greatest?

[Kraxis]

Arminus was a Roman (a second generation Roman citizen). Now he might have had some tribal connections. Use him and you allow the Spanish to say Hadrian was Spanish.

Anyway, I think you suffer from a terrible complex when it comes to recent history.
You said that you didn't blame Bismarck for what happened later on, yet you did so by claiming that his actions led to really bad stuff later on. That way we can blame the early Ottomans for the genocide agianst the Armanians.
That is in my mind not rational nor it is fair.

Personally though I would not pick Bismarck as the best German, but hey I'm not German.

[GoreBag]

Excuse me? I really don't think so my brother.

Didn't he? Where did I hear that...

[Husar]

It´s all fine, Franconius. I just didn´t think of anyone else, because Bismarck is some kind of hobby for me(not that serious, but I get good grades if I can write about him in history exams )
If Husar is already given away, my 2nd nickname is "KarlKarolinger"(not Bismarck) in honor of Karl der Grosse.
I like Martin Luther as well.
Current german politicians are all very bad in my opinion and so I like to look back into the days of Bismarck, when everything was still better.
There are even a lot of great german physicists(now correct, Papewaio? )besides Einstein, like Jönsson(the name doesn´t sound german though).
If we just hadn´t been that stupid in 1932 and the following years...

[English assassin]

All my favorite US 'greatest national figures' have been picked, so I'll reach way back to my grandmother's Shawnee grandmother, and pick Tecumseh.

His almost-implemented dream of a united native confederation to halt the encroaching europeans (and their successors, the americans), I believe, demonstrates the kind of self-determination all nations aspire to. He should never have allied with Britain in the 1812 war.

There does seem to be something rather ironic about a native leader fighting for self determination allying with the worlds foremost imperial power, doesn't there...?

[lanky316]

England - Oliver Cromwell

No real reason except he's rammed down my throat all the time, what with his family running most of the town for centuries anyway. Had a drink in his old pub for lunch today funnily enough

[PanzerJaeger]

O.K.. I understand that you think he is great. And I cab agree to that even though I might not be so enthusiastic. But do you really think there is no greater person in the whole German history. I prefer Martin Luther. You may have another priority than I have. What about Arminius, you know the guy that defeated the Romans. Or Karl the Great. Conquert whole Europe and created Germany and France. And stopped the muslim! or Ferdinand Porsche. Did not only built great cars but also great tanks . Or Prinz Eugen. ....
Do you really think Bismarck is the greatest?

All great men, but without Bismarck, it is very suspect as to whether Germany would have united at all. Since this is a "greatest national figure" thread I think he should get a lot of points for creating the nation.

Martin Luther was a good guy but he was more of a Christian than a German if you catch my drift. If this were a "greatest Christian figure" thread id be more inclined to go with him.

As for the industrialists and scientists - weve had so many great ones its hard to put one over the others!

[Nelson]

For the USA it has to be George Washington.

Henry “Light Horse Harry" Lee said it best:

First in War,
First in Peace, and
First in the Hearts of His Countrymen

He might have quit the war when all was dark but he would not.

He might have become king but would have none of it.

He established his nation’s future on the battlefield and became the template for the federal executive. When the Founders defined the office, they knew who the first president would be. Had to be. Only a handful of other men in the history of the Republic have approached his greatness. None have surpassed it.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Otto the Great of Germany. Established German greatness in Europe. His legacy lasts to this day.