Anyone interested in Crusader States mod?

[Minister of Fear]

Kingdom of Heaven has renewed my interest in the history of the crusades and I'm wondering if anyone's interested in a mod that takes the complexities of Outremer into account. I'm particularly thinking of a mod with a new map (centred on Outremer, but this should be discussed) and new factions that takes into account the variety of political/ military actors in Outremer; i.e. the Military Orders, the Assassins, the Mameluks, the Genoese, Pisans, Venetians, the Kings of France and England, Mongols, etc. I'm also interested by the role the Ilkhanate (nominally Christian in the 13th century) could have played if the Western Europeans had not been squabbling amongst themselves over the Kingdoms of Sicily and Naples.

I suggest that the mod begin approx. 1248 with St Louis, the King of France, setting sail for Cyprus. You decide what will be the target of this crusade. Historically, the destination was Egypt but after initial success the crusade ended in disaster.

A new or modified map is needed. The brilliant work of BKB could be employed with his kind permission, but it would required admixture of his HIGH and LATE mods.

So, what say all of you, is this mod pregnant with promise, or is it stillborn?

Edit : Renamed thread as requested, now moved to engineers guild, once more as requested.

-Mithrandir

[AggonyDuck]

The idea of the mod is good, except I'd actually suggest starting it in the 12th century in the time between the first and the second crusade.
This pretty much allows the game to have several factions that actually played a role at that time. See perhaps the best thing about starting somewhere after the 1st Crusade is that both the muslims and the crusaders are splintered in several factions.

[CountMRVHS]

Hmm.... some interesting ideas. A few thoughts:

1. I wonder how the "politics" of the era could be enacted in this mod. In other words, if you're thinking about factions like, say, the crusader kingdom of Jerusalem, as well as France, what happens when the king of france wants to go on crusade? MTW diplomacy being MTW diplomacy, I imagine there could be a lot of situations where the French end up allying with the Saracens to beat up on the Crusaders -- which is fine I guess, but it might not be the kind of game some people want.

2. What kind of new map are we talking about? First let me say that I have NO experience making new campaign maps, so I would be no help there. But what did you have in mind for the area of the map? Personally, I think it would be great to have Constantinople east to the Caucasus (basically it could end where the MTW map ends on the eastern side). That way you'd have Constantinople itself as the seat of the Byzantine Empire, and you'd have at least a chopped-up Byzantine Empire, its land holdings depending on the start date, which would make things interesting. Also it sounds like you want to include some of the eastern Mediterranean islands, which sounds good.

4. Any ideas on factions/units?

3. Is this mod really feasible? I don't want to sound like a pessimist but the more I think about it the more interesting this seems, and I'm just wondering how willing people would be to work with this. I could offer some research time to help out myself, and I know a bit about basic modding (I've done some campaigns for myself in the past), but you'd need someone who can work with the campaign map and maybe make brand new unit graphics and shield graphics -- all of that stuff is beyond me.

Well it sounds interesting -- keep us posted.
CountMRVHS

[Krusader]

Sounds good.

I would suggest perhaps set a starting year to 1144-45 which was when Edessa fell, and just before Second Crusade. After the Second Crusade, things got more interesting, and the wars quickly flared up.

[Pericles]

I like the idea.

Most of the units are already available.

I think it is worth doing.

I, too, saw KoH and I am in the mood to play crusader type games.

[edyzmedieval]

The idea sounds great!!

I think you should start with the 1st crusade and end with the last crusade...

You should add many new units and stuff to make the game interesting...

[CountMRVHS]

Yeah, Krusader's start date sounds good. The way I see it, you want to start the game while there are already a bunch of Crusader states established, right? So you wouldn't really want to start with the First Crusade. About the 1248 date, I confess I don't know too much about the later crusades. After 1204 things get hazy for me in that area, and my historical knowledge is more focused on Byzantium.

One other thing I was wondering about: would there be different starting eras in the campaign? In other words, would the High era still begin in 1204? I'm just curious about if this would have any impact on when units become available, as crossbows only become available in High, etc etc.

At the very least, the various Crusader knight types should be trainable by the appropriate factions, not just recruited randomly in a Crusade; but you were probably planning that anyway.

The big question for me, though, remains: can you mod the campaign map or do you know somebody who can?

CountMRVHS

[Krusader]

If you're going different eras, then might I suggest some possible start dates:

1095 - First Crusade preached. Launched some years later

1144 - Edessa falls. Second Crusade preached. Second Crusade achieves nothing in Asia Minor, while crusader states besiege Damascus unsuccesfully. After this the Muslim lords become more united and more hostile towards the crusader states

1204/1205 - Fourth Crusade ends. Byzantine empire falls and succesor states established. Dunno if this affects Holy Land.

1229 - Holy Roman Emperor Frederick II gets Jerusalem and other cities through diplomacy.

1260 - Baybars becomes Mamluk Sultan of Egypt. Defeats the Mongols at Ain Jalut, and wages a succesful war on the Christians. Defeats them in several battles, and in 1268 he conquers Antioch.
Armenians in Cilica or lesser Armenia also defeated some years before. Also warred with Seljuk Turks who were vassals of the Mongols at the time.

[junkmonk]

Kewl

[metatron]

I was planning such a mod no later than last week, but real life issues have taken precedence.

[Minister of Fear]

Good. Sounds as if there is sufficient interest in at least convening a council of war. Those interested in contributing should send me a private message and then we can organise a MSN messenger conference at a time convenient to all regarding the mod.

As to points raised so far:

I'd love to do a mod beginning with the first crusade but my main interest is what happened once they got there. I think the better starting is as a few have suggested: mid 12th century, possible ten year prior to fall of Edessa. LEt's give Outremer some chance in it defence.

Which gives us some moslem and christians factions to work with, and these may include the Mameluks, Fatamids, Duqaq of Dasmascus, Assassins, Danishmends, Seldjuks, Caliph of Bagdad, Armenians, Gerogians, Byzantines, Hospitalliers, Templars, Aragonese, Genoese, Venetians, Pisans, English, HRE and Papact and Outremer itself. I wouls also like to include Khwarazim if it were possible.

The campaign map I think should include South western Europe and North Western Africa in the west of map and sourth Eurasia and arabia in the east (the Red and Caspian Seas and Persian Gulf should be on the map. And, no, i can't mod the campaign map but we should be able to find someone who can, or I'll just have to give it a go myself.

The units - we could use BKB's units-supplemented with one's of our own creation. This all depends on the factions, etc. And BKB's permission.

Diplomacy may be a problem, but if you consider the Venetians alliance with the Egyptians in the face of calamity, it may not be such a problem. My enemies enemy is my friend was coined by Machiavelli, but was practiced by the Venetians, et al long before.

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

Feel free to use whatever you want. Sounds like a good project!

[Meneldil]

Well, there was no Outremer state, but a bunch of rival kingdoms, counties, principalties. Having only one outremer kingdom faction would be quite bland, as crusader states spent a lot of time fighting themselves.
There should also be more than 1 byzantine faction, if you plan to go farther than 1204.

[Krusader]

Crusader factions would then be Kingdom of Jerusalem, County of Tripoli, Principality of Antioch & County of Edessa.

If you need any help with Prin. Antioch then I can find some info on them, as their leaders and nobility seems to have been mainly Normans.

[metatron]

We should focus on the Levant itself. The Venetians and Romans held lands nearby, giving them bases of operations.

A smaller campaign map = more provinces. Now, if we're going to have six crusader states, I think we need as many as we can possibly get in the Holy Land.

[Sir William Wallace]

a mod dealing with this time in history would be great, i would defiantly play it. i think it would pretty cool if you had individual orders of knights as factions in the game too. although i dont have any editing software as of yet, i offer my services to help with the mod.

[CountMRVHS]

More thoughts on the campaign map.

What Metatron says is true: focus on a smaller area, you get more provinces to fit in there, which can make for more historical accuracy. However, I can see the attraction in having factions like the Sicilians, the Venetians, etc.

I think the big question here will be what kind of campaign would we most like to have.

Personally, I'd like to see Byzantium included in this mod. During the time period we're talking about, there was much cooperation and conflict between the Byzantines and the Crusader states in Asia Minor and the Middle East. To do Byzantium justice, you'd need to include Greece and sections of the Balkans, not to mention all of modern-day Turkey.

When you talk about going further west, however, I get hesitant.

Here's why: If you want to include some Western European powers, it seems to me that you'd really need to include them all. Just having the Venetians, for example, and having the map only stretch west to Italy, would seem to be only giving a fraction of a larger picture. If you really want to have the English and the HRE as factions, then we're talking about a map which is basically the same scale as the current MTW map ... and then the focus wouldn't really be on the Crusader States at all; we'd be fighting all over Europe just like we can do now.

I think for the sake of simplicity and accuracy (as far as provinces and cities are concerned) it would make sense to confine the map to the Eastern Mediterranean, maybe with the Adriatic as its western border. Making the map even smaller in focus -- ie just the Levant -- would leave out a lot of room for the various Turkish factions as well as chunks of Byzantium: and my argument for Byzantium is that they were a very powerful LOCAL entity in the area at the time.

That's just my take on this; but hey I've got my own biases obviously . I think a general rule, though, should be simplicity. I'd really love to see this mod get finished, and the best way to ensure that that happens is to keep it simple.

[Minister of Fear]

This is getting very interesting!

Firstly, Meneldil is right, there was no such thing as an Outremer faction but several kingdoms, principalities, counties, etc. and I do plan on that being reflected in the campaign. But I'm not satisfied by the idea, of Krusader, that the factions should so closely align with the area they established, ie. the County of Edessa or the Kingdom of Jerusalem, but they just may have to. What I wasn't aware of, but soon will be, is that there was more than one Byzantine faction in the 13th century.

To focus too sharply on the Levant would l think diminish the international dimension of the campaign. The maritime/trading cities of Italy (Genoa, Venice, and Pisa) should be in the campaign largely because their navies were pivotal to the success or failure of the crusader states. The kingdoms of England and France are necessary because of the shortage of fighting men the Crusaders could raise locally. Can we do without this?

CountMRVHS raises a good point about the game not becoming similar to available campaigns, we could avoid this even if those factions are available on map by having only those factions in the east as playable factions.

And thanks to BKB we have a great pool of units to use from the beginning.

So, at the moment, the following have shown interest in participating: CountMRVHS, Sir William Wallace, Krusader, Metatron?, is there anyone else?

[Krusader]

I can dig out information about the crusades. I don't know much about coding and that stuff!!

[metatron]

I propose we use this map:

(Click for larger image)

Except, with modern names. I figured, since the cities are of the most importance, that the cities should be their own provinces. Not to the exclusion of expanses of land, just more important (money wise, etc.).

[metatron]

I've done this work for the Kingdom of Jerusalem already for BKBs mod:

Here you go. Colors are "238 233 233 then 242 224 103". I have a lighter set, but the difference really is minimal.

Since the coat of arms was that of Jerusalem, I figured why not just center the titles around it too...

Quote:
AddOffice:: FN_CRUSADER royal_palace "Lord Chamberlain" +2 +2 0 0 0 0 0
AddOffice:: FN_CRUSADER constables_palace "Constable of Jerusalem" +2 0 3 3 0 0 0
AddOffice:: FN_CRUSADER marshals_palace "Marshal of Jerusalem" +2 0 0 1 0 0 0
AddOffice:: FN_CRUSADER chancellery "Chancellor" +1 1 0 0 0 0 0
AddOffice:: FN_CRUSADER cathedral "Patriarch of Jerusalem" 1 2 0 0 4 0 0
AddOffice:: FN_CRUSADER chapter_house "Grand Master of the Knights of the Temple of Solomon" 0 1 1 3 0 0 0
AddOffice:: FN_CRUSADER law_courts3 "Viscount" 1 1 2 0 0 0 0
AddOffice:: FN_CRUSADER college_of_surgeons "Master Physician of the Haute Cour" 1 2 1 0 0 0 0
AddOffice:: FN_CRUSADER royal_palace "Butler" +1 +1 0 0 0 0 0
AddOffice:: FN_CRUSADER royal_palace "Bailiff" +3 +2 0 0 0 0 0
AddOffice:: FN_CRUSADER cathedral "Patriarch of Antioch" 1 2 0 0 3 0 0
AddOffice:: FN_CRUSADER chapter_house "Grand Master of the Knights of the Hospital of St. John of Jerusalem" 0 1 1 2 2 0 0
AddOffice:: FN_CRUSADER royal_court "Seneschal of the Kingdom of Jerusalem" +2 +3 0 0 0 0 0
No loyalty for the orders, as their loyalty to the King is tenuous at best, and loyalty for the Patriarchs, because obviously their office (and lives!) depend on Catholic control of Outremer. My research indicated that the position of Marshall was fairly unimportant, in direct contrast to the Constable...

Cut out "Patriarch of Antioch" and the Orders, and we've got a decent list for the KoJ's titles.

[metatron]

To focus too sharply on the Levant would l think diminish the international dimension of the campaign. The maritime/trading cities of Italy (Genoa, Venice, and Pisa) should be in the campaign largely because their navies were pivotal to the success or failure of the crusader states. The kingdoms of England and France are necessary because of the shortage of fighting men the Crusaders could raise locally. Can we do without this?

First, it all depends on the time period we plan to cover.

Second, we could work it like VI and have a few "European" provinces that can't be reached by those in the Levant.

[Krusader]

Might I propose one thing:

Make some units hard to get, like mounted Templars, Hospitallers etc. for instance takes some turns to train them (like Battlefield Ninjas or Geishas in S:TW, although 8 turns might be a bit much?)

Wikipedia Map

Here's an old map of the Levant in 1140.

[CountMRVHS]

I suspect sometime in the near future we'll make a final decision about the campaign map. It looks like we've got people who want a big map (Minister of Fear), people who want a small map (Metatron), and I suspect there are a couple others like myself who can see a compromise working out. As it is right now, I can see Minister's point about the Italian cities needing representation. However, the French and English still seem to extend the scope too wide for me. My inclination right now is that I'd prefer to keep the map from extending beyond Italy. Maybe the shortage of men in the Levant could be represented in some other way.... but as I said this will likely get settled soon, and I can work with whatever happens.

As for the Byzantines, if we're starting around 1130, then we're still looking at a unified Empire, led by John II at that time (1118-1143 I believe). In Asia Minor, the empire held lands roughly from the SW "corner" of Turkey to the NE "corner", where it meets the SE corner of the Black Sea. We've got a Seljuk faction, a Danishmend (right? this is from memory...) faction, and there should be several provinces in the hands of rebels, as there were a lot of nomadic, unaffiliated Turkish peoples milling about.

The split into several different Byzantine factions occurred later, after the fourth crusade and the establishment of the Latin state of Constantinople. However, in terms of representing this in the game.... I think we probably shouldn't, unless we have a separate start date for the High period at 1204. If we're just having one start date, from 1130ish on, then there should be just one Byzantine faction. I'm not familiar with BKBs units as I don't have the mod, but I've heard they're very accurate.

Anyway that's all for now. The Byzantine part should be fairly easy -- the hard part for right now is deciding the limits of the map and where to literally draw the line.

CountMRVHS

[metatron]

I could live with Constantinople and Crete included, just not so much the rest of Europe. Of course, you sacrifice things, for instance the Bulgar/Balkan pressures on the Empire.

I have another map we could use, lemmie find it.

[Minister of Fear]

Metatron - I just think that maps too small, where would the Ilkhnate be situated in the 13th century. However, see what you could do, roughly, in carving it up, as regards to the place of the various factions.

The campaign map may be negotiated another way. We could of course develop two campaigns, one with the small map, another with a larger map. Or we could include the Italian peninsula in the west and Caspian sea in the east. Lets continue to thrash this one out. Once its decided, everything else should begin to fall into place.

The time period could be the 12th and 13th century and if there's sufficient need we could have a HIGH and LATE era, one two cover the Kingdom of Jerusalem, and another to cover the Kingdom of Acre.

I'm looking through available maps at the moment, has anyone found one that includes what Italian peninsula in the west and Caspian sea in the east, as well as top of red sea and persian gulf.

[Minister of Fear]

Metatron- Ok. If you can live with Constantinople and Crete in the north and west, how far south and to the east are you prepared to go?

[metatron]

We have a danger of this mod growing beyond it's scope. We should remain focused primarily on Outremer. I understand that there were many forces at work, but the larger the map becomes, the more it degenerates into a simple "Eastern Mod".

I had this map in mind for my mod:



But I could be persuaded to use this:




But we need three things:
- A Name
- The Pope, so the Catholics don't start fighting amongst themselves so easily
- And thiis thread moved to the Engineers' Guild. :P

[Minister of Fear]

Metatron, your are hard man but fair. I'll happily accept the second map. I could even be persuaded to accept the first since the east expansion I suggested is unnecessary (possibly unfair on Outremer) in having such a large area of Moslem support in the East without the benefit of Western Europe. The exclusion of the Western powers would I think make friendly relations with Byzantium all the more necessary for the Crusaders. But I think it would make it all the more interesting in presenting in some measure the tenuous character of Moslem unity in the 12th and 13th century, and this requires the second map. That map would also make the arrival of the Mongols in the 13th century very interesting to play, and provide them with a sufficient base for offensive operations once the Horde is broken into factions by the battle for succession.

So, is the second map generally thought of favourably? Objections I think should require a counter-map.

I have a map that describes the boundaries of each of the factions and their geographic areas at 1100 and 1200 respectively. Can someone let me know how to upload images here.

And, oh. Wouldn't I love an eastern promise campaign!

As for a Name for the mod, how about: Outremer;
as for location of pope, let me think;
and, how do you move a thread from here to Engineer's Guild?

[CountMRVHS]

My vote's for Metatron's second map as well. My knowledge fades out when it starts to go south into Africa and farther east, but I'm sure you guys can fill in those gaps.

Just one thing I noticed: the Black Sea is cut into 2 pieces. Any way we could raise the norther border a teeny bit so ships could get from Constantinople to Georgia?

Other than that, I think the only thing we're going to have to do is make sure the province around Constantinople itself is rich enough to help support the Empire, to sort of represent the lands to the west that aren't being included.

Minister, that would be *great* to see the map you're talking about, with the borders for factions. Would of course make things much easier.

Outremer is a good name for the mod.

How would the Pope be represented here? Would he need to actually have lands? If so, where on this map could he be?

Or could we forgo the presence of the Pope entirely here.... I mean, how much influence did he have directly on the Crusader states themselves? It seems to me that Popes concentrated more on the raising & directing of Crusades than the workings of the kingdoms in the Levant, but I don't know.

One thing I think is for sure: In order to prevent the crusader states from behaving like the Danes and Aragonese, we're going to need to give them at least a few provinces to start with. It'd be no fun to have a bunch of Royal Knights sitting in Jerusalem for 100 years.

CountMRVHS