Anyone interested in Crusader States mod?

[CountMRVHS]

Alright, new location!

Now we can get this sucker going.

To keep everyone updated, I've taken it upon myself to do some research into the Byzantine area of our mod. I'm looking at what cities/provinces should be included in the area including large parts of present-day Turkey, Greece, and the chunk of the Balkans that we have on our map.

As for the Holy Land, I imagine someone other than myself would be the better person to decide on that area. It sounds like we've got some very knowledgeable people here, and I'm more than happy to go with whatever you guys come up with for the Levant and everything east/south of that.

Of course I also welcome any help on the Byzantine/northern area of our map.

I've been looking around to see about how to get going on the campaign map. Is it possible that someone has already created a map that we could use, that is close enough to the map we want to use? I checked in the Mapping Library Project thread in the Alchemist's Lab and there might be something in there, but I'm not sure. If we can't just use someone else's preexisting map, we've gotta figure out how to do it ourselves, or hope someone can do it for us! But before we can do that, the provinces need to be all settled. If no one objects, I'll keep working on the Byz part, and I'll try to figure out a way to report what I come up with for ideas.... not sure how I'd do that ... see I've never sent any images here, and I don't know how I'd go about indicating where I think the lines should be drawn.... just use some sort of paint program? (thank God I'm not the most technically-minded person working on this mod or it'd never see the light of day!)

Anyway, anyone volunteering to work on the rest of the map?

[rojak]

this crusader mod is cool!

[metatron]

We could use that to help us plan the Anatolian provinces...

[metatron]

Erm, that would take up 1/3 of our allotted provinces. I feel 1/4th (for Greece and Anatolia) would be better...

[CountMRVHS]

Metatron, where'd you get that map?

But yeah, there's way too many provinces there. How many do we get, 99? I was just doing a rough sketch of what provinces would be good to have and for Anatolia I think I came up with something like a dozen total. Here are the cities I figured should be included in Anatolia:

Nicaea
Pergamum
Smyrna
Laodicea
Attaleia
Dorylaeum
Sinope
Gangra
Ankara
Iconium
Trebizond
Nicopolis
Caesaria
Tarsus
Mopsuestia

Ok, so that's 15. That can even be cut down a little bit if you think it's too many. This is just a rough first attempt compiled from several maps, so some of those cities may change.

For Greece and the Balkans, I came up with these cities:

Constantinople
Adrianople (for the province of Thrace)
Thessalonica (for Thessalonica)
Larissa (for Thessaly)
Athens
Corinth
Mistra
Corfu (for Epirus)
Dyrrachium or Durazzo
Nis
Zara
Sardica
Varna

So that's another 13. 28 provinces in all for Greece/Anatolia. I haven't gone East into Armenia or Georgia yet. Again for the western half of the Empire I could cut down the number of provinces by several if necessary. If someone could give me a rough number of what we'll need on the rest of the map I could make the northern part fit that a little bit more.

Basically, I want to have several longish, thin coastal provinces around the edges of Anatolia that the Byzantines can be in possession of at the start of our campaign, as well as maybe 7 inland provinces for the various Turkish factions and rebels. I'm sure we can pull that off without robbing too much from the Levant.

What do you guys think we should do about the part of Italy that we're including? Should we just call it all Apulia and call Sicily Sicily and let it be like that?

Anyway, tell me what you think about the cities I'm proposing. Also, can I use a regular Paint program to cut up the provinces and post that here to show everyone? Never done that before so I'll need a bit of guidance to get that up and running. Until then I'm left just listing off cities and hope they ring bells.

CountMRVHS

[metatron]

http://www.microgamedesigngroup.ca/BYZ.html

[Minister of Fear]

Metatron and Count,
For the moment, I'd follow the rule of thumb that 50 or less provinces north of Antioch, and 50 or less provinces south of Antioch, obeying, of course, the rule of no more than 99 provinces. Otherwise, the map may look ridiculous. You need the provinces reasonably distributed so that Seldjuk, Danishmend, and Orotqid expansion into the Levant is not easily accomplished. Also, don't forget you have the County of Edessa to the north east of Antioch which will need comprise of at least 4-6 provinces. Guys, keep in mind the number of factions that will be fighting it out in Asia Minor. You'll have the above, then include the Armenians, which I would split into the Hethoumians and Roupians, the Byzantines, the Georgians, and possibly the Shah-Armen, Sassun, Moks and Alans.

[CountMRVHS]

Let's get a comprehensive list of factions that we're definitely going to include. I imagine that at least some of the provinces in Asia Minor will be under rebel control at the start, because not every local leader had large-scale ambitions or abilities or declared for a particular larger faction.

I confess that some of the names of those groups are alien to me, Minister. My knowledge of the political scene in eastern Asia Minor is limited, but that can be rectified. Any suggestions on websites or books I can turn to for a quick history lesson on those guys?

But yeah, I'll leave the faction listing up to you guys. I'd only suggest that we may want to focus on the "bigger" factions and chunk up some of the "smaller", relatively inactive ones into rebels. My only other suggestion is that, if there is room, we could include the Pechenegs/Cumans/Bulgars (whatever you want to call 'em) that were known for giving the eastern empire such a hard time. I don't really want the Byz to be too powerful here, so it might be good to have some of those guys around to balance it out; otherwise the Byz might just get a too easily defensible corner of the map.

CountMRVHS

[Minister of Fear]

Well, the Shah-Armen, Sassun, and Moks fit in b/w the Ortoqids and the Georgians with the Alans to the north of Georgia. Its very hard to find out anything about those three, a part from Shah-Armen meaning 'King of Armenia'. If anyone else knows much about them I'd very much like to learn it. Maybe we just leave them as rebel regions with historical affinity to the Armenians.

I think we should definitely include the following factions:
Byzantines,
Seldjuk Sultanate,
Danishmend Emirate,
Ortoqids,
Fatamid Caliphate,
Abbassid Caliphate,
Atabeg of Mosul,
Emirate of Damascus,
Emirate of Aleppo,
Duchy of Apulia and Calabria,
County of Sicilia,
Georgians,
Armenians seperately as the Hethoumians and the Roupians,
Prince of Antioch,
Count of Tripoli,
Count of Edessa,
King of Jeruslam,
Hospitalliers,
Templars,
Assassins,
Venetians,
and Genoese.

That's about 23 factions. So, what do the people think?

Count, I think the Venetians, Genoese, and the boot of Italy, along with the Seldjuks will keep Byzantium moderately busy.

[Radier]

Awesome medieval mod guys

Keep ip the good work

[metatron]

Can we get 'Byzantines' as 'Romans'?

[Minister of Fear]

Can we get 'Byzantines' as 'Romans'?

Why?

[Krusader]

Can we get 'Byzantines' as 'Romans'?

And quoting the Why? below

The inhabitants of the Byzantine Empire called themselves rhomaioi which means Romans, and they called their empire the Eastern Roman Empire.

The western Europeans or Latins called the Byzantines for Greeks.

The term Byzantine btw was invented in the 16th century I believe.

[Iustinus]

If you need help with this mod, I can make a music pack with real traditional Byzantine and Greek music and originall songs from the Crusades, I already have it half set up. I'm busy a little bit sometimes helping with AWI (which is one of the funnest battle mods there is) and with my own on HTW, but I might be able to help sometimes if it's needed.
Thanks!
Justin

[CountMRVHS]

Iustinus, that'd be great! It would be very cool to listen to different music during battles etc. We're not at that stage quite yet, but your services would be most welcome I think when we get there.

As for the Byz/Romans; it sounds good to me to call them what they called themselves. Rhomaioi sounds pretty cool too.

The list of factions looks good Minister. Forgive me, but I'm not sure how you plan to implement the holy orders if they're operating as their own factions. Just how independent from the other Crusader states were the Templars, for example? Would, say, the principality of Antioch be able to recruit Templars? The same type of question goes for the Assassins. Just curious about how it will work in the game.

CountMRVHS

[Malachus]

Ah, the Assassins. A mod that incorporates them. I like it. Of course, what type of units did the Assassins have historically? Same basic Muslim roster as is or anything 'unique'?

[Minister of Fear]

CountMRVHS/ Krusader:
Calling the Byzantines, 'Rhomaioi' would be fine. Suppose it adds some authenticity to the names of the factions.

Iustinus:
I agree with the Count, the music you refer to would be great, but we're just not ready for it at the moment.

Newagebassist:
The Assassins will I think be the only faction able to train Hashinhin units. They will also be able to train expert assassins. The other units that maybe available to them I'm unclear of and will gladly receive advise on.

CountMRVHS:
As I understand it, the Military Orders only allegience was to the Pope. I'm not sure exactly how I want to play this in the mod. The Orders largely acted independently historical so they should also in the game. The only problem with MTW is that allied units are not free to move through their allies lands. If there was a reason to mod this in RTW it is this. But lets wait to see how the campaign map comes along first.

[metatron]

CountMRVHS:
As I understand it, the Military Orders only allegience was to the Pope. I'm not sure exactly how I want to play this in the mod. The Orders largely acted independently historical so they should also in the game. The only problem with MTW is that allied units are not free to move through their allies lands. If there was a reason to mod this in RTW it is this. But lets wait to see how the campaign map comes along first.

I was thinking the Templars (or the Hospitallers, prob. the Hospitallers) could be the Pope, but renamed.

[Pericles]

Here are some sites that provide lots of info on the various knight orders.

Here is a website that provides a great deal of detail on the crusades and on the various orders:

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Crusade


Here is another website that provides a great deal of info on the Knights orders:

http://www.orderofmaltacanada.org/page_e_history.htm


In addition to the Hospitalers and the Templars, both formed in PALESTINE during the CRUSADES, there were also the LIVONIAN ORDERS, the TEUTONIC KNIGHTS, and various orders devoted to fighting the MOSLEMS in Spain and Portugal had more strictly national interests and memberships. The Knights Of Malta, also an international body, was a later continuation of the Hospitalers.

More detail:

TEUTONIC KNIGHTS (too-tahn'-ik) or Teutonic Order, German religious-military order founded ab. 1190 at Jerusalem during the third CRUSADE. Patterned after the Templars and the Hospitalers, the new Order played only a small role in the affairs of the Frankish-Christian states which had been carved out in Palestine-Syria.

Around 1210 the Knights became involved in European affairs, and the Order reached the height of its influence and power during the 13th and l4th cent., when it conquered Prussia, converting the inhabitants to Christianity or replacing them with German colonists. By the end of this period, the Order, which after 1225 also included the LIVONIAN ORDER, with its cap. at Marienburg (Konigsberg after 1466), ruled a large domain along the coast of the Baltic as far as Russia. Following major defeats in the intermittent war with Poland (see TANNENBERG, BATTLES OF) in the l5th cent., the Order acknowledged Polish sovereignty. There followed a period of gradual but steady decline. In 1525, the Grand Master of the Order accepted PROTESTANTISM, and the former holdings of the Order in Prussia became a duchy under Polish protection. The Order's few remaining possessions in Germany proper were secularized in 1805. Biblio.: Krollmann, C., The Teutonic Order in Prussia (1938).


LIVONIAN ORDER (li-voh'-nee-un), Livonian Knights or Knights of the Swords, German KNGHTLY ORDER, founded in 1202 by the bishops of Riga to christianize the lands lying along the Baltic Coast, i.e., Livonia (N. Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia). In 1236, following their defeat at Siauliai by the Lithuanians, the Order became a branch of the TEUTONIC KNIGHTS, although it retained its autonomy in the Livonian Region. An attack by the Order on Novgorod led to its massive defeat by Alexander NEVSKY at Lake Peipus (1242), and in the years afterward the Order was steadily weakened by Russian and local opposition and by the Protestant Reformation. It was disbanded in 1561.

[metatron]

The Sword Brothers were absorbed into the Teutonic Order, which was much more active in the Batlic region than Palestine.

The Knights of Malta are just the Knights Hospitaller, but instead of the "Order of Knights of the Hospital of St. John of Jerusalem" it became the "Sovereign Military Hospitaller Order of St. John of Jerusalem of Rhodes and of Malta".

[Malachus]

In response to the Assassins (or Ismaeli or Hashishin.. whatever you wanna call 'em), that's what I thought... them being the only faction to create hashishin plus those expert assassins don't sound too bad either. I'd say they should also be given crossbowmen and trebuchets, but only buildable in the Caspian Hills where their headquarters were and where they defended using crossbows and traction trebuchets against the Mongols. Overall I'd say they should be given only hashishin, crossbows, and trebuchets because I don't think the Assassins were organized to the point of having battlefield armies... they wielded power with their expert assassins instead, which has been mentioned to be incorporated.

[Iustinus]

I am no expert on this time period, but I know that at least a little bit earlier (definately before Manzikert) the Byzantine army was almost entirely mounted. I have this idea for primarily mounted factions (like the Mongols) so that nearly all the troops you recruit in Campaign would be mounted. If you want infantry you can just dismount before battle. So you can have, let's say, Trapezitoi and dismount them as some kind of light infantry in a defensive position, or in a siege. Thus you have the choice always between mounted units and infantry, giving the impression of an almost entirely mounted army able to ride to the battle field. There is only one drawback I can think of- the amount of men you can fit in a castle. Instead the only infantry that should be immediately available should be some kind of garrison or border guards, leaving the main army mounted. In custom battle since you generally can't dismount you can then choose between infantry and cavalry.
Sorry this was kind of long, I don't know how the Eastern Roman army worked during the crusades, but if it was primarily still cavalry this is just an idea!
Thanks!
Justin
P.S. I know it is early, but I'm getting the music pack perfected, so by the time this mod is nearly done the music should be ready for whoever wants it.

[King Henry V]

I've found a map which could fit in most things, including the Eastern Roman Empire.
it also fits in Italy and there's the possibility for Mongol territory in the eastern Black sea. Perhaps the English, the French and the HRE could be external forces like the Golden Horde. They appear if you can manage to convince the Pope that a crusade is needed, which could be an interesting aspect (say if Jerusalem or another importan place is lost). Just a suggestion.

[CountMRVHS]

Update on progress.

I've been working on which cities/provinces to include in the northern half of the map. At this point I have around 40, but we may want to think about cutting that down a bit. I think it would be better to have *more* provinces in the south of the map than in the north, so the Crusader states wouldn't need to conquer huge tracts of Asia Minor in order to get their 2/3 victory. To me, it would be nice if a Crusader kingdom could conquer from Egypt through the Holy land eastward and call it good; but that may be just me. Anyway, I think the number of provinces I have right now will give the opportunity for plenty of action; the Sicilians/Italians would be able to invade several parts of Greece and the Balkans, and Asia Minor is split up into about a dozen provinces. East of that I'm just making cautious guesses, but hopefully it'll work.

Just saw Kingdom of Heaven again in theaters today with my wife to keep up inspiration for the mod . I can't wait for this thing to be playable!

I don't know if I'm violating any protocol here, but just to keep everyone informed about what's up: Fader_It, who has recently posted his great-looking Italy mod on this same page, has kindly volunteered to help us with making the campaign map for this mod. At this point we're working out cities and provinces, and then we'll ship the whole thing over to him to get started. Big thanks to Fader for this support!!!

I wanted to respond to a bunch of suggestions that have come up recently, at least from my own perspective. Of course I can't speak for everyone else involved:

@KingHenry: we've already got a basic map to work from, but thanks for the offer! If you look back I think on page 2 you can see it. Basically it doesn't have as much to the West but has more to the East.

@Iustinus: it's great that you're working on the music. Keep it up and let us know when you get close to finishing it. For the Byzantine units, I honestly hadn't given it a lot of thought, but I think there should be *some* mix of cav and infantry. Anyone who's more of an expert on that aspect of military history? All input appreciated.

@newagebassist: For the Assassins, again this is an area that I'm not 100% sure of. Sheerly for gameplay smoothness, I'd think we should give them the opportunity to train *some* kind of regular infantry other than just trebuchets, crossbows and hashishin. Maybe some fanatical axe unit or something. My history is lacking here as well, but in order to make them a viable faction I think we'd need to include some more stuff for them.

And here's a new idea I wanted to bring up for everyone: On the .com modding forums, there was some experimentation with increasing castle garrison limits, for the purpose of making longer sieges. This is something that apparently can be done through Gnome editor. Basically, by increasing the amount of soldiers that can fit in a castle, you increase the number of years the garrison will last, and therefore increase the probability of an AI assault. Also, when the AI assault comes, your garrison will not be scraps of beat-up forces that managed to run from the last battle, but they could be a full stack of hardened troops. So you'd get the chance to defend with a decent force, in other words. Some tests were done and it was found that only 1 stack could fit in the castle, no matter how big the limit was, but that still that 1 stack could be made to last for a very long time.

My question to everyone is, Is this a feature you'd like to see implemented in this mod? It would obviously work both ways: not only would the AI be more obliged to assault your citadel, but you'd likewise be obliged to assault an AI castle -- but to me this seems like an advantage in a game that is sadly usually lacking in fun siege battles. As long as it's tweaked so that the castle would fall SOMEtime, like in 10 years, so you wouldn't always be required to assault, this is something I'd be interested in. Anyone else?

OK I think that's it for now. I'm getting really excited about this -- hopefully the map will get done within a couple weeks and we can get started on the factions and everything else. Keep the suggestions coming,

CountMRVHS

[Minister of Fear]

Great work, Count. I've roughly divided the Levant into about 46 provinces, either housing a major city, or a strategic centre, i.e. Kerak Castle. Depending on how your going with Asia minor, etc. we could then do a little give/take, taking into account game balance, etc.

@Iustinus:
keep it up, the idea of having a sound track to go along with the mod is great;

@newagebassist: as a faction, the strength of the Assassins will be in manipulating other factions through targeted assassinations. They will I think have a limited unit list, will be the only faction that fields the Hashishin, and may also be the only faction to field the Nizari or Futuwwa. As always, I'm open to suggestion or flattery.

@CountMRVHS:
I like the idea you present re castle seiges. Lets at least give it ago during play-testing. Is there a way of selecting the units available in the stack that will garrison the castle?

Yes, lets please get the map done in the next few weeks.

[Radier]

I like the idea of longer sieges Count

Good luck!

[Malachus]

[QUOTE=Minister of Fear]
@newagebassist: as a faction, the strength of the Assassins will be in manipulating other factions through targeted assassinations. They will I think have a limited unit list, will be the only faction that fields the Hashishin, and may also be the only faction to field the Nizari or Futuwwa. As always, I'm open to suggestion or flattery.


That sounds like a great roster... they should have to focus primarily on assassinations... not battle.

[CountMRVHS]

The only problem with that is, I'm not sure how we can get the AI to handle it properly. I'm afraid that if the Assassins are being played by the computer, we'll soon encounter a huge invasion of whatever unit they can recruit rather than the subtler method of assassination. Setting their behavior might help in making them more/less aggressive, but I don't know if there's any way we can influence how often they use strategic agents.

That said, I don't want to see a buffed, rampaging Assassins faction myself. So if we limit their unit roster, we should probably set their behavior to something defensive and give them a very defensible position -- so that whoever invades them needs to fight on territory that is very good for the Assassins' archers. Maybe some rivers, some mountains... not sure about the geography of that area.

Anyway, just something to think about.

[Malachus]

Well for the Assassins, you could try and give them a really high preference for building their assassin units. This should make them focus a lot on building those assassins and putting them to use rather than acting like any other old faction.

[Pericles]

I like the idea of longer seiges.

As it stands in-game right now, it is far too easy to wait and/or auto resolve sieges.

This would definitely add more strategy and force the player into researching and buying seige equipment.

Best of luck on the mod.