Anyone interested in Crusader States mod?

[metatron]

We should focus on the Levant itself. The Venetians and Romans held lands nearby, giving them bases of operations.

A smaller campaign map = more provinces. Now, if we're going to have six crusader states, I think we need as many as we can possibly get in the Holy Land.

[Sir William Wallace]

a mod dealing with this time in history would be great, i would defiantly play it. i think it would pretty cool if you had individual orders of knights as factions in the game too. although i dont have any editing software as of yet, i offer my services to help with the mod.

[CountMRVHS]

More thoughts on the campaign map.

What Metatron says is true: focus on a smaller area, you get more provinces to fit in there, which can make for more historical accuracy. However, I can see the attraction in having factions like the Sicilians, the Venetians, etc.

I think the big question here will be what kind of campaign would we most like to have.

Personally, I'd like to see Byzantium included in this mod. During the time period we're talking about, there was much cooperation and conflict between the Byzantines and the Crusader states in Asia Minor and the Middle East. To do Byzantium justice, you'd need to include Greece and sections of the Balkans, not to mention all of modern-day Turkey.

When you talk about going further west, however, I get hesitant.

Here's why: If you want to include some Western European powers, it seems to me that you'd really need to include them all. Just having the Venetians, for example, and having the map only stretch west to Italy, would seem to be only giving a fraction of a larger picture. If you really want to have the English and the HRE as factions, then we're talking about a map which is basically the same scale as the current MTW map ... and then the focus wouldn't really be on the Crusader States at all; we'd be fighting all over Europe just like we can do now.

I think for the sake of simplicity and accuracy (as far as provinces and cities are concerned) it would make sense to confine the map to the Eastern Mediterranean, maybe with the Adriatic as its western border. Making the map even smaller in focus -- ie just the Levant -- would leave out a lot of room for the various Turkish factions as well as chunks of Byzantium: and my argument for Byzantium is that they were a very powerful LOCAL entity in the area at the time.

That's just my take on this; but hey I've got my own biases obviously . I think a general rule, though, should be simplicity. I'd really love to see this mod get finished, and the best way to ensure that that happens is to keep it simple.

[Minister of Fear]

This is getting very interesting!

Firstly, Meneldil is right, there was no such thing as an Outremer faction but several kingdoms, principalities, counties, etc. and I do plan on that being reflected in the campaign. But I'm not satisfied by the idea, of Krusader, that the factions should so closely align with the area they established, ie. the County of Edessa or the Kingdom of Jerusalem, but they just may have to. What I wasn't aware of, but soon will be, is that there was more than one Byzantine faction in the 13th century.

To focus too sharply on the Levant would l think diminish the international dimension of the campaign. The maritime/trading cities of Italy (Genoa, Venice, and Pisa) should be in the campaign largely because their navies were pivotal to the success or failure of the crusader states. The kingdoms of England and France are necessary because of the shortage of fighting men the Crusaders could raise locally. Can we do without this?

CountMRVHS raises a good point about the game not becoming similar to available campaigns, we could avoid this even if those factions are available on map by having only those factions in the east as playable factions.

And thanks to BKB we have a great pool of units to use from the beginning.

So, at the moment, the following have shown interest in participating: CountMRVHS, Sir William Wallace, Krusader, Metatron?, is there anyone else?

[Krusader]

I can dig out information about the crusades. I don't know much about coding and that stuff!!

[metatron]

I propose we use this map:

(Click for larger image)

Except, with modern names. I figured, since the cities are of the most importance, that the cities should be their own provinces. Not to the exclusion of expanses of land, just more important (money wise, etc.).

[metatron]

I've done this work for the Kingdom of Jerusalem already for BKBs mod:

Here you go. Colors are "238 233 233 then 242 224 103". I have a lighter set, but the difference really is minimal.

Since the coat of arms was that of Jerusalem, I figured why not just center the titles around it too...

Quote:
AddOffice:: FN_CRUSADER royal_palace "Lord Chamberlain" +2 +2 0 0 0 0 0
AddOffice:: FN_CRUSADER constables_palace "Constable of Jerusalem" +2 0 3 3 0 0 0
AddOffice:: FN_CRUSADER marshals_palace "Marshal of Jerusalem" +2 0 0 1 0 0 0
AddOffice:: FN_CRUSADER chancellery "Chancellor" +1 1 0 0 0 0 0
AddOffice:: FN_CRUSADER cathedral "Patriarch of Jerusalem" 1 2 0 0 4 0 0
AddOffice:: FN_CRUSADER chapter_house "Grand Master of the Knights of the Temple of Solomon" 0 1 1 3 0 0 0
AddOffice:: FN_CRUSADER law_courts3 "Viscount" 1 1 2 0 0 0 0
AddOffice:: FN_CRUSADER college_of_surgeons "Master Physician of the Haute Cour" 1 2 1 0 0 0 0
AddOffice:: FN_CRUSADER royal_palace "Butler" +1 +1 0 0 0 0 0
AddOffice:: FN_CRUSADER royal_palace "Bailiff" +3 +2 0 0 0 0 0
AddOffice:: FN_CRUSADER cathedral "Patriarch of Antioch" 1 2 0 0 3 0 0
AddOffice:: FN_CRUSADER chapter_house "Grand Master of the Knights of the Hospital of St. John of Jerusalem" 0 1 1 2 2 0 0
AddOffice:: FN_CRUSADER royal_court "Seneschal of the Kingdom of Jerusalem" +2 +3 0 0 0 0 0
No loyalty for the orders, as their loyalty to the King is tenuous at best, and loyalty for the Patriarchs, because obviously their office (and lives!) depend on Catholic control of Outremer. My research indicated that the position of Marshall was fairly unimportant, in direct contrast to the Constable...

Cut out "Patriarch of Antioch" and the Orders, and we've got a decent list for the KoJ's titles.

[metatron]

To focus too sharply on the Levant would l think diminish the international dimension of the campaign. The maritime/trading cities of Italy (Genoa, Venice, and Pisa) should be in the campaign largely because their navies were pivotal to the success or failure of the crusader states. The kingdoms of England and France are necessary because of the shortage of fighting men the Crusaders could raise locally. Can we do without this?

First, it all depends on the time period we plan to cover.

Second, we could work it like VI and have a few "European" provinces that can't be reached by those in the Levant.

[Krusader]

Might I propose one thing:

Make some units hard to get, like mounted Templars, Hospitallers etc. for instance takes some turns to train them (like Battlefield Ninjas or Geishas in S:TW, although 8 turns might be a bit much?)

Wikipedia Map

Here's an old map of the Levant in 1140.

[CountMRVHS]

I suspect sometime in the near future we'll make a final decision about the campaign map. It looks like we've got people who want a big map (Minister of Fear), people who want a small map (Metatron), and I suspect there are a couple others like myself who can see a compromise working out. As it is right now, I can see Minister's point about the Italian cities needing representation. However, the French and English still seem to extend the scope too wide for me. My inclination right now is that I'd prefer to keep the map from extending beyond Italy. Maybe the shortage of men in the Levant could be represented in some other way.... but as I said this will likely get settled soon, and I can work with whatever happens.

As for the Byzantines, if we're starting around 1130, then we're still looking at a unified Empire, led by John II at that time (1118-1143 I believe). In Asia Minor, the empire held lands roughly from the SW "corner" of Turkey to the NE "corner", where it meets the SE corner of the Black Sea. We've got a Seljuk faction, a Danishmend (right? this is from memory...) faction, and there should be several provinces in the hands of rebels, as there were a lot of nomadic, unaffiliated Turkish peoples milling about.

The split into several different Byzantine factions occurred later, after the fourth crusade and the establishment of the Latin state of Constantinople. However, in terms of representing this in the game.... I think we probably shouldn't, unless we have a separate start date for the High period at 1204. If we're just having one start date, from 1130ish on, then there should be just one Byzantine faction. I'm not familiar with BKBs units as I don't have the mod, but I've heard they're very accurate.

Anyway that's all for now. The Byzantine part should be fairly easy -- the hard part for right now is deciding the limits of the map and where to literally draw the line.

CountMRVHS

[metatron]

I could live with Constantinople and Crete included, just not so much the rest of Europe. Of course, you sacrifice things, for instance the Bulgar/Balkan pressures on the Empire.

I have another map we could use, lemmie find it.

[Minister of Fear]

Metatron - I just think that maps too small, where would the Ilkhnate be situated in the 13th century. However, see what you could do, roughly, in carving it up, as regards to the place of the various factions.

The campaign map may be negotiated another way. We could of course develop two campaigns, one with the small map, another with a larger map. Or we could include the Italian peninsula in the west and Caspian sea in the east. Lets continue to thrash this one out. Once its decided, everything else should begin to fall into place.

The time period could be the 12th and 13th century and if there's sufficient need we could have a HIGH and LATE era, one two cover the Kingdom of Jerusalem, and another to cover the Kingdom of Acre.

I'm looking through available maps at the moment, has anyone found one that includes what Italian peninsula in the west and Caspian sea in the east, as well as top of red sea and persian gulf.