Armenian Issue - Not Genocide, here's why..

[LeftEyeNine]

Armenian Genocide is a tool of political threatens created by Armenians so far away, not the ones in Armenia, while the "freaky" political parliaments love to use it. (I can not believe some guy who filled the movie theaters with violence and rubbish action for years now cares about Armenians..Armenian voting power over there in maybe? Heh..Pity Arnie..)

Keeping in mind that I am not a Turkish racist, let me tell you about the reality of Armenian Genocide:

Ottoman Empire covered such a vast land and such a vast foreign population for approximately 600 years. Except for the "Turk-ization" policy imposed in early conquest of the Trachia and Balkans by bringing and settling down the Turkmen migrants in these lands, Ottoman Empire always standed for its tolerance for existence, culture, beliefs over foreign populations it covered. That's why the nationalism was so effective through these lands. Suddenly Greeks, Arabs, Macedonians, Albanians, Romanians, Bulgarians etc. declared their liberty (Albania and some others were unwilling about their liberation, intersting point..). The policy of Russians, the French and the British over Ottoman Empire contributed highly on this, not to reject.

Armenians were among the happy and silent people ( called "millet-i sukun" which means "silent nation" by the Ottoman society ). The Turks who suffered their disgusting torments later say that : "We had Armenian neighbors everywhere with whom we had nice relationships, they were good and nice". So what happened? Did we turn into bloodlusting beasts suddenly ? An absolute no.

Russians were one of the major invaders through the Eastern parts of Anatolia where Armenians and Turks were living together in WWI. Their provocations and military supplements, the foundation of Tashnak committee - an Armenian terror group - leaded to Armenians massacring their neighbors. What did they do ?

They gathered up as gangs continuously assaulting Turkish villages. They gathered women, pregnants and children in mosques killing them all. Some memories of the remnants of that massacre tell about Armenians kicking the babies into fire in front of their mothers' eye. That was not a battle, they did torment. Gathering Turkish women in a mansion, raping them whole day ten by ten. The old ones say that raped Turkish women were walking strange after their disgusting lusts. They dressed off lieutenants, peeling off their skins making cuts looking like pockets or ranks of a soldier , then telling them that they had promoted. In Zeytun 100, in Van 3000 and in Mus a total of 20.000 Turks were killed (most of them tormented to death) between years 1914 - 15. The Ottoman governments actions towards calming down that Armenian massacre (not a rebel, attention) were reflected to the global news as the Moslems massacring the Christians.

514015 Turks were killed by the Armenians between 1914 and 1920 in Anatolia and Caucasian lands. Statistics belong to government archives. Summing up the numbers that were possible to figure out took about 10 minutes for me. There is a table also with uncertain numbers of killed Turks in the following link.
( http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/engli...res/lists.html )

As a result Ottoman Empire applied "tehcir" (relocation) policy that forced Armenians to emigrate from their homelands to Syria. On their way to Syria, the Armenian emigrants were killed by the furious Turkish people and virtually-hostile-against-Armenians - the Kurdish generals. Yes we killed, but you decide it in unbiased terms that it was a genocide or a revenge.

P.S. Some tidbits of reality;


IN THE 19th CENTURY IN THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE:
29 Armenians achieved the highest governmental rank of pasha,
22 Armenians became ministers, including Ministers of Foreign Affairs,
33 Armenians were elected to the Parliament,
7 Armenians were appointed as Ambassadors, 11 as Consul Generals,
11 Armenians served in universities as professors.


There were 803 Armenian schools employing 2088 teachers with over 80,000 pupils within the Ottoman Empire in 1901-2.

That is a fact counterparting the fake hostility suggested between the Turks and the Armenians. However, that was the past, now there is a humorous saying that "Are you Armenian?" that some Turks use when one does something crimeful and violent. I do not prefer, however. But this is a reality grown by Russians, the French and the British. Now they are harvesting what they intended to. ("they" refers to political terms not in social terms)

[The Wizard]

In light of the fact that this will undoubtedly turn into a big argument, for this is a statement rather than an explanation, I suggest this is moved to the Backroom -- unless it remains historical.

But I expect either Armenians from their diaspora, or sympathizers, to attack your point, even though it does not deny the genocide.

To start off the debate: I read, actually only an hour ago or so, that these Armenian revenge murders were sporadically and independently executed, while the deportation of Armenians, and their subsequent murder and hangings if they resisted seemed to be well-oiled and organized.



~Wiz

[Gregoshi]

MODERATOR WARNING

I agree with The Wizard's assessment of this topic - this is a Backroom thread waiting to happen. I will give it a chance though. However, if you turn this thread into a political battlefield and it goes to the Backroom. Turn it into a flame war and it will be closed. If you have a problem with something in this thread, DO NOT DEAL WITH IT YOURSELF - contact me with an explanation and I will deal with the problem as best I can.

Now, with that out of the way, let's keep the discussion historical and civil please. Thank you for your cooperation.

[Meneldil]

To start off the debate: I read, actually only an hour ago or so, that these Armenian revenge murders were sporadically and independently executed, while the deportation of Armenians, and their subsequent murder and hangings if they resisted seemed to be well-oiled and organized.

True. It was pretty well organized. French, American but also German ambassors to the Golden Gate sent letter to their governement in late 1917, asking them to try to put a stop at what the American ambassador called 'mass murdering of innocent christian civilians' (what I call a genocide).
The Armenians' exaction were caused by some silly folks who were fighting for their freedom (weither it was justified or not), while the killing of Armenians was planned by the Ottoman rulers.

Furthermore, I don't see really what's your point about "XXXXX armenians were teachers under the Ottoman Rule".
Wonder how many Jews had an important job in 1933 in Germany ? This was probably one of the reason of the hatred against them.
One of the best french socialist prime minister pre WWII was a jew, and that didn't save him from being persecuted after 1941.

As for saying that the Ottoman Empire was known for being tolerant, I think many historians won't agree with you, but who knows who's the most biased on this issue ? While I'm fascinated by the Ottoman Empire warfare, I don't have that much knowledge about its political and social side. Be sure that I'll investigate this, but until now, I give you the benefit of the doubt

I've also read news from Armenian newspaper (published in Armenia, not in France, US or Russia), and I think from turkish ones, about the genocide. It might have been exagerated (which I doubt), but it was not invented by french or american armenians afer the war.

[Rosacrux redux]

The Armenian genocide was not just "Armenian". The Armenians were the main focus, that is why 1.2 million of them got killed. But also more than 200.000 Pontic Greeks died from 1914 to 1923 - most of them in Kemal's times (Enver and Talat just kicked the ball and Mustafa Kemal played along, methinks).

Denial of the genocide is a vain effort. It happened. It was brutal, it was savage and it was an abominal act. Accept it and live with it, instead of trying to convince anyone "it didn't happen". It reminds me the holocaust denial, quite popular in certain quarters nowadays.

Also, about the "tolerance" of the Ottoman empire, so much is true before the 19th century. But following the wake of nationalism of the occupied populations, the tolerance died off. That is how we came to the Young Turks, Enver and Talat and gang, trying to "clean" the "Turkish race" from the "unclean" christians.

Funny thing, if they really wanted to clean the Turkish race, they'd have to start with themselves. Enver was of Jewish origin, for instance. And the intermixture in Anatolia has left very few Turks with "pure blood" (if any).

[Krusader]

What Rosacrux says pretty much sums up what I feel and think.

Just wish to add that the Ottoman empire was tolerant towards Jews, as many Jews that fled from Spain settled in Constantinople/Istanbul. And I think 40% of the population in Asia Minor from 15th-18th centuries Orthodox Christian.

[LeftEyeNine]

I am not intending to fire up here. I have been in many forums up to now, both in my mother tongue and foreign languages. I know about forum behavior, calm down. There will be no offenses here, I promise. I hope all of us try to learn something new and keep unbiased. I do.

Furthermore, I don't see really what's your point about "XXXXX armenians were teachers under the Ottoman Rule".

I also pointed out before that the Armenians were called "millet-i sukun" - the silent nation. I pointed out that the witnesses of the 500.000 "unorganized" (?!!) murders by Armenians called Armenians "good and kind neighbors". The examples you give just do not cover with points I figure here. The Turkish society had no problem with Armenians at all. It was "invented". You can not compare it to the Jewish influence in Germany which caused hatred against them. They are absoultely different things.

Just to repeat, 500.000 deads is a huge number to be counted as a bandit move. Armenians had the organization and militaristic power of English, French and the Russians behind. These countries are "wise" enough, aren't they ?

The Armenians' exaction were caused by some silly folks who were fighting for their freedom (weither it was justified or not), while the killing of Armenians was planned by the Ottoman rulers.

Ottoman Rulers planned to re-locate the Armenians not murder them. Here is the original copy of cryptic telegraph wired on August 29, 1915 to the Governors of Hudaverdigar, Ankara, Konya, Izmit, Adana, Maras, Urfa, Halep, Zor, Sivas, Kutahya, Karesi, Nigde, Mamuretulaziz, Diyarbekir, Karahisar-i Sahib, Erzurum and Kayseri Provinces and sub-Provinces :

"The purpose of the Government regarding the moving of Armenians from their original settlements is to prevent their anti-governmental actions; and to discourage their ambitions of establishing an Armenian State. Their massacre is completely out of question; on the contrary the safety of the groups during immigration should be ensured; and while measures for their catering should be taken, the “Immigrants Allocation” should be used to meet the cost. Armenians who are allowed to stay in their original settlements should not be re-located afterwards. As it was stated before the immigration of the dependents of military forces; protestant and catholic Armenians; and artisans (in accordance with the need) are definitely prohibited by the Government severe legal measures. Against the gendarmes and government officials who attack the immigrating groups or those who lead such attacks severe legal measures should be taken and such individuals should immediately Court-Martialled. Relevant provincial and sub-provincial authorities shall be held responsible for such events."

In another cryptic note sent to Ankara on May 27 1915 it was said that; “The measures taken by the Government regarding the Armenians are based on the necessity to ensure and protect the welfare and order of the Country. Exclusion of the Catholic and Protestant Armenians —who are at present observed as impartial at the present- from immigration, is the indication that the Government has no intention to massacre them”

References: 1) DH. EUM 2. Branch, 68/80
2) DH. EUM 2. Branch, 68/71; 2. Branch 68/84

The 1.2 millions of massacred Armenians is absolutely false.The last population statistics of the Ottoman Empire was held in 1914. According to this, the Armenian population have a number of 1.221.850. So that, we have swept them all? No.

"A total of 438.758 people were relocated and 382.148 of these safely reached their new destinations. As can be seen, the number of casualties had occurred as follows: 500 people on the road between Erzurum and Erzincan; 2000 in Meskene, between Urfa and Aleppo and 2000 others on the outskirts of Mardin were massacred in attacks launched by bandits or nomadic Arabs. Another 5000 people were killed in attacks on convoys passing through Dersim. It was understood from these documents that many people had also fallen victim to hunger while on the road. Apart from these, some 25-30 thousand people had lost their lives when struck by fatal diseases such as typhoid and dysentery. In all, an estimated 40 thousand casualties had been registered during relocation."

What's more, an Armenian advocate living in Elazig, later migrated to USA, Murad Muradyan tells in one of his letters that some Armenians were escaped to Russia and America and later 50.000 of those trained soldiers went to Caucassia. Also, Artin Hotomyan who was a tradesman in America sent a letter to the Chieftain of Security on January 19, 1915 and stated that thousands of Armenians migrated to U.S.A. and they were facing with hunger and hardships.

Reference:
Halacoglu, Prof. Dr. Yusuf, Ermeni Tehcirine Ait Gercekler (1915), TTK Publication, Ankara, 2001.

Funny thing, if they really wanted to clean the Turkish race, they'd have to start with themselves. Enver was of Jewish origin, for instance. And the intermixture in Anatolia has left very few Turks with "pure blood" (if any).

I see no point with "puryfing" Turkish race. That is a stupid dream. I never progressed on such a matter in my message.

I've also read news from Armenian newspaper (published in Armenia, not in France, US or Russia), and I think from turkish ones, about the genocide. It might have been exagerated (which I doubt), but it was not invented by french or american armenians afer the war.

If the whole world cries out with that lie, Armenian newspapers would feel encouraged enough to spread news on that? Isn't that logical ? Exagerration is the sole truth about the issue.

The Armenian genocide was not just "Armenian". The Armenians were the main focus, that is why 1.2 million of them got killed. But also more than 200.000 Pontic Greeks died from 1914 to 1923 - most of them in Kemal's times (Enver and Talat just kicked the ball and Mustafa Kemal played along, methinks).

Let me tell you this. Mustafa Kemal Ataturk is the founder of my country. The period you are talking about covers our Independence War times. It was when my lands were invaded after the Sevres Agreement (10 August 1920) and Mondros Ceasefire Aggreement (30 October 1918) confirmed and signed by the "patient" Ottoman government (rejected by the Turkish parliament founded in Ankara by Mustafa Kemal) , which divided the land between France, England, Greece, Kurds, Armenians, Russians, and Italians. We were fighting for freedom. What's more Mustafa Kemal landed on Samsun, a city in Black Sea region, in 19 May 1919 to start the independence move.

The Pontic Greeks did establish Pontic Greek Community secretly in Merzifon American College in 1904. Their purpose was to liberate a Black Sea Greek Republic ("Pontus Rum Cemiyeti") that extends all over the coasts of Batum to Sinop. Provided their purpose, they released a newspaper named Pontus in Istanbul and established armed gangs in Middle and Eastern Black Sea Region of Anatolia where the Greek minorities were common. The cover of the community was blown in a sudden assault to the Merzifon American college performed in 16 February 1921. So if we have to defend our lands we have to fight. That is war, not a genocide. We were having an Independence war at these times - spreading from 1919 to 1923. Please keep that in mind when talking about any incidents that occur through these times. Pontic Greek genocide is a new one that serves the Megalo Idea of the Greeks and the never-ending hostility between Greeks and Turks. Nonsense..

Denial of the genocide is a vain effort. It happened. It was brutal, it was savage and it was an abominal act. Accept it and live with it, instead of trying to convince anyone "it didn't happen". It reminds me the holocaust denial, quite popular in certain quarters nowadays.

We have committed a huge mistake about remaining silent and parry away the issue until now. If there is something that is unavoidable in terms of rationality, I never gave up - just like our freedom efforts given against invaders. There is no genocide, I am proposing you on references, not blah-blah. I can not live with it because if there has something happened that time it was not genocide, it was a battle and/or an act of revenge (the nature of the concept "revenge" is ignored here, right or wrong, it doesn't matter for the subject.)

By the way, all countries except the mainland of the Turks - Anatolia - that Ottoman Empire covered for 600 years still talk in their own language, live their own culture and religion. That is tolerance..

Just wish to add that the Ottoman empire was tolerant towards Jews, as many Jews that fled from Spain settled in Constantinople/Istanbul. And I think 40% of the population in Asia Minor from 15th-18th centuries Orthodox Christian.

It was Suleyman the Magnificent that let Jews settle in Istanbul. Krusader's proposal is true.


Armenians really worked hard on that subject. That is how they really convinced so many people on this. They made so convinctions that I am forced by non-Armenians to accept a fiction. The rock group SOAD continuously serve to this purpose, while rock culture rejects being fascist. They just built a hatred against Turks - spread anti-Turk fascism all around - betraying rock culture but being listened by millions. I was amazed when I searched "Armenian Genocide" in Google. My god, we have a loooooong way. A Turkish saying: "Wherever you return from the loss is profit".

I must repeat, I am unbiased as well as being a Turkish.

[Rosacrux redux]

I fear your post does not show anything "unbiased", my friend. On the contrary, I'd say. But I don't want to start another flamewar regarding the Armenian genocide so I'll leave it here. It's your choice to live in constant denial, and I have nothing further to say on that.