FBI Records Cite Quran Abuse Allegations after all

[Hurin_Rules]

FBI Records Cite Quran Abuse Allegations
AP - 53 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - Terror suspects at the Guantanamo Bay prison told U.S. interrogators as early as April 2002, just four months after the first detainees arrived, that military guards abused them and desecrated the Quran, declassified FBI records say. "Their behavior is bad," one detainee is quoted as saying of his guards during an interrogation by an FBI special agent in July 2002. "About five months ago the guards beat the detainees. They flushed a Quran in the toilet."

http://news.yahoo.com/fc/World/Guantanamo_Detainees

Seems to be a developing story. I'll post more when it appears.

Do note, however, that all this proves is that the FBI did report that allegations were made; the FBI did not say they were true.

[PanzerJaeger]

Also note that AQ is trained to claim abuse and other inflammatory activities done by their captors.

[Proletariat]

Even if they are true, who cares? ----------------

[Proletariat]

Erm, suppose I should explain before I get banned.

These people have to have the most fragile little egos in the history of mankind.

This is merely the nature of fundamentalism. These Muslim fundamentalists merely join the long line of others throughout history, including the Roman emperors, the Roman Catholic Church, the Puritans, Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia, Maoist China, and modern-day fundamentalist Christians (to an extent) in their iconification of certain "sacred" material things, confusing such things with the truly sacred. They all share a similar trait: they are all materialists masquerading as spiritual movements. A truly spiritual understanding would never confuse a physical thing, (a book, a place, a flag) for something truly sacred. Fundamentalists always end up insisting on just that, and then demanding everyone else do so as well. Religions, having lost their connections with the truly sacred, usually end up, at some point, grabbing onto something material and declaring it sacred. That's OK, as far as it goes. If people want to believe certain things, fine. The real problem arises when these same religious materialists take the next step and succeed in assuming temporal power. Then we have disaster.

[Proletariat]

The nail on the head.

the real desecration of Islam is not what some interrogator in Guantanamo might have done to the Koran. It is what totalitarian Muslim zealots have been doing to innocent human beings in the name of Islam. It is 9/11 and Beslan and Bali and Daniel Pearl and the USS Cole. It is trains in Madrid and schoolbuses in Israel and an ''insurgency" in Iraq that slaughters Muslims as they pray and vote and line up for work. It is Hamas and Al Qaeda and sermons filled with infidel-hatred and exhortations to ''martyrdom."

[Fragony]

Erm, suppose I should explain before I get banned.

These people have to have the most fragile little egos in the history of mankind.

The Quran is the most sacred thing to the muslims, up to a level we probably cannot understand. Flushing parts of it is the biggest humiliation there is, because it is their everything. You have to be carefull with that, I believe it was Churchil who said 'if you have to kill a man it you may as well be polite'. It aren't just the allah-hooligans that are angry, also the moderate muslim intellectuals are furious because of this. I think that says something.

[AntiochusIII]

The rage felt by the more moderate Muslims can be identified at against what the act (if done) intends and symbolize rather than the act itself.

Radicals are angry at everything.

Proletariat's reasoning is fine *as long as* the intend is not to insult and inflame. Clearly most actions of this kind carries such offensive intends with it.

Back to topic: nobody should be surprised of any kind of torture coming out of a political prison.

[Franconicus]

Erm, suppose I should explain before I get banned.

These people have to have the most fragile little egos in the history of mankind.

This is merely the nature of fundamentalism. These Muslim fundamentalists merely join the long line of others throughout history, including the Roman emperors, the Roman Catholic Church, the Puritans, Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia, Maoist China, and modern-day fundamentalist Christians (to an extent) in their iconification of certain "sacred" material things, confusing such things with the truly sacred. They all share a similar trait: they are all materialists masquerading as spiritual movements. A truly spiritual understanding would never confuse a physical thing, (a book, a place, a flag) for something truly sacred. Fundamentalists always end up insisting on just that, and then demanding everyone else do so as well. Religions, having lost their connections with the truly sacred, usually end up, at some point, grabbing onto something material and declaring it sacred. That's OK, as far as it goes. If people want to believe certain things, fine. The real problem arises when these same religious materialists take the next step and succeed in assuming temporal power. Then we have disaster.

1. You list a couple of organisations. What they all have in common (except modern .. Christians) is that they were practising torture (did not help them much!) Were the Nazis focused on holy material things?
2. It does not matter much what the moslem fundamenals think. It matters what the rest of the muslems think. Will they be willing to support terror or will they be willing to support the war against it? If US soldiers act against the quran that does not help. It also matters what the US people is doing, if it is true. Will they be saying: It does not matter, because it is good for our national interests. Or: Let us not talk about it. It could do damage to our troops?
3. After the proven cases of torture in that prison in Iraq and the weak reaction from the US government it seems to be possible that these kind of thinks may happen. And that is bad enough.

[Steppe Merc]

1. You list a couple of organisations. What they all have in common (except modern .. Christians) is that they were practising torture (did not help them much!) Were the Nazis focused on holy material things?

Yup. See the thread in the Monastary called "Were Nazis really looking for Devlish things".

[Leet Eriksson]

Even if they are true, who cares? The Quran should be printed on toilet paper at Gitmo.

I do, every muslim should stand up for his religion. Why do they even give these detainess a quran to begin with? just so events like these could surface?

On another note, printing a quran does not only offend these people, but a large chunk of muslims worldwide, becuase it is preceived as an attempt to insult Islam instead of fighting the mindset the terrorists follow.

[Proletariat]

I do, every muslim should stand up for his religion. Why do they even give these detainess a quran to begin with? just so events like these could surface?

Why don't you think that would also be construed as some blasphemous insult?

For fairness and balance, I think the Bible and US flag can be printed on tp, too. It'd be a best seller in San Francisco and college campuses all through my country.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Palestinians used Bible
as toilet paper
Muslims' desecration of holy book received little notice
Posted: May 18, 2005
1:00 a.m. Eastern


© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com

While Muslims have responded with deadly outrage to the now-retracted report by Newsweek of alleged Quran desecration by U.S. interrogators, there was little outcry three years ago when Islamic terrorists holed up in Bethlehem's Church of the Nativity reportedly used the Bible as toilet paper.

Catholic priests in the church marking the spot where Jesus was believed to have been born said that during the five-week siege, Palestinians tore up some Bibles for toilet paper and removed many valuable sacramental objects, according to a May 15, 2002, report by the Washington Times.

Newsweek is under fire for a report in its May 9 edition that sparked protests and rioting across the Muslim world resulting in 17 dead, scores injured, relief buildings burned down and a setback to years of coalition-building against terrorists.

Newsweek's Periscope column written by Michael Isikoff and John Barry included a brief item alleging U.S. military investigators at the Guantanamo Bay prison found evidence that interrogators placed copies of the Quran down the toilet in an effort to get prisoners to talk.

Despite Newsweek's retraction, the outrage in the Muslim world continues.

In Saudi Arabia yesterday, the country's top religious authority, Grand Mufti Adul-Aziz al-Sheik, condemned the alleged desecration and called for an investigation "to alleviate the sorrow that befell Muslims."

"We condemn and denounce this criminal act against Muslims' most sacred item," al-Sheik said.

Afghanistan's government said Newsweek should be held responsible for damages caused by the demonstrations, and Pakistan said the magazine's apology and retraction were "not enough."

In contrast, during the 2002 church siege, the muted complaints of Christians under the Muslim-dominated Palestinian Authority gained little traction.

The Palestinian gunmen, members of Yasser Arafat's Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, seized church stockpiles of food and "ate like greedy monsters" until the food ran out, while more than 150 civilians went hungry, the Washington Times report said.

The indulgence lasted about two weeks into the 39-day siege, when the food and drink ran out, according to an account by four Greek Orthodox priests trapped inside. A church helper told the Times the quantity of food consumed by the gunmen in the first 15 days should have lasted six months.

Angry Orthodox priests showed reporters empty bottles of whiskey, champagne, vodka, cognac and French wine on the floor along with hundreds of cigarette butts.

"They should be ashamed of themselves. They acted like animals, like greedy monsters. Come, I will show you more," said one priest, who declined to give his name.

Computers were taken apart and a television set dismantled for use as a hiding place for weapons.

"You can see what repayment we got for 'hosting' these so-called guests," said Archbishop Ironius, according to the Times report.

No protests

US flags mounted in dog droppings in German city
Expatica ^ | January 14, 2005 | Expatica

Posted on 01/14/2005 8:33:23 PM PST by Land_of_Lincoln_John

BAYREUTH - Baffled authorities in southern Germany have issued an alert concerning unknown persons who have been sticking small US flags into piles of dog droppings in public parks in Bayreuth.

"This has been going on for about a year now, and there must be 2,000 to 3,000 piles of excrement that have been thusly 'adorned' during that time," said Bayreuth parks administrator Josef Oettl.

The sporadic series of incidents originally was thought to be some sort of protest against the US-led invasion of Iraq. And when it continued it was thought to be a protest against President George W. Bush's campaign for re-election.

Bayreuth police say they are completely baffled.

"We have sent out extra patrols to try to catch whoever is doing this in the act," said police spokesman Reiner Kuechler. "But frankly, we don't know what we would do if we caught them red- white- and-blue handed."

Legal experts agreed, saying there is no law against using faeces as a flag stand and the federal constitution is vague on the issue.

No protests

And these things really happened.

[Papewaio]

Even if they are true, who cares? The Quran should be printed on toilet paper at Gitmo.

What it be okay if the American Flag was printed on toilet paper?

[Proletariat]

What it be okay if the American Flag was printed on toilet paper?

Yes. See post #7.

[Papewaio]

I can't count above 5 as my other hand is using the mouse...

Seems a fair view. Is there any scared cows you would get offended by having on toilet paper?

[econ21]

Even if they are true, who cares?

1.2bn people, give or take.

[English assassin]

Sorry to desecrate a serious thread for the moment but can I really be the only person who finds the idea of some shadowy german sticking 2-3000 little american flags into dog poo over the course of a year extremely amusing?

You have to respect the German work ethic. If that had been a Brit they would have done about 25 and then given up and had a cup of tea.

As for the Quran incident, although it would be very bad, if it took place, AII's post concerning torture and murder in US jails in Afganistan was rather more serious. however the fundamentalists may feel about a book, people being tortured to death by the US military must be the main story?

[Ser Clegane]

Sorry to desecrate a serious thread for the moment but can I really be the only person who finds the idea of some shadowy german sticking 2-3000 little american flags into dog poo over the course of a year extremely amusing?

It seems we have some people who are obsessed with marking dog poo living in our country. At the place were I lived a couple of years ago there was obviously some person in the neighbourhood who used colored chalk to draw little circles around any dog droppings on the sidewalk.
Some people have strange hobbies...

[Kraxis]

Sorry to desecrate a serious thread for the moment but can I really be the only person who finds the idea of some shadowy german sticking 2-3000 little american flags into dog poo over the course of a year extremely amusing?

I find it extremely amusing...

Not for political reasons or even the visage of it, but because a similar thing was fairly popular here in Denmark when I was a child.
Now the background is that at child birthdays the cake is normally adorned with a forest of little Danish paperflags on toothpicks (best description I could give). So the little flag is a symbol of cake and birthdays. Thus the image of a dogpoo with such a flag in it conjures a lot of amusement because of it's duality.
To an extent I sideline it with the burning dogpoo...
Childish and a bit sick, but certainly great fun.

[Proletariat]

I am an aetheist from a Christian background and yet somehow I find the above to be the most offensive thing I've read in the Backroom for a long time.

And no mention of the same being said for Bibles and American flags.

[econ21]

And no mention of the same being said for Bibles and American flags.

Because no other poster in this thread has made any offensive remarks about these things.

[JimBob]

The Quran is a miracle in Islam, the Quran is like Jesus in book form. How would people react if Jesus was flushed down the toliet?

[JimBob]

Each physical copy of the book printed is a miracle? It's not the message that's contained within? Is the message meaningless without the paper and binding?

Yes each physical copy. Because each copy is a perfect copy of the original, and therefore is God's exact word. That is the first miracle, it being God's word. The second is that Muhammed, who was illiterate, wrote much of the Quran down. So the fact that it even exists in a written form is a miracle. Also the fact that the Quran removes the need for any further prophets, because it is believed that previous prophets had their message corrupted (Abraham, Isaac, Ishmeal, Solomon, the whole lot from Judeo-Christian tradition, and depending on how liberal a Muslim the Buddha, Lao-Tzu, and Krishna, ect).

And whats the bible? It seem nothing more than toilet paper to some Muslims. Of copurse its always fair game on christianity but heaven forbid you even hint at anything bad about Muslims.

Of course the Bible is nothing more than toliet paper to some Muslims, so is the Baghavad Gita, and Analects. And to some Christians the Quran, the Torah(go figure) and the Vedas are not better. Everyone has bigots, lets not use them as the standard.

Uhm, they Crucified Jesus. And people went on and still held dear his message of salvation.

Were they pissed off? You bet remember the dark ages?

How would Catholics react if the crucifix was dunked in urine? ...Oh wait, that was already done- and we were told that it was art and free expression. Forget how sacred a thing the Crucifixion is to us- apparently Catholicism doesn't get the kid gloves the way some other religions do.

1) The 'oh poor us, the dirty mean people did it to us first' is getting old. 2) Was the Crucifix dunked in urine in an attempt to force a Catholic who had been locked up in a prison without contact with the outside world and who may not even have commited a crime to confess or to break them? If modern artists have that kind of power we are all doomed.

Is Islam a nation now and the Koran their flag?

YES! Haven't you ever heard of the Caliphates, Muhammed ruled an Islamic state. But the state broke up and has been replaced with a number of countries that claim to be Islamic.

It seems that Palestinians have used the holy bible as toilet paper though and barely a wimper from christains. Would we protest. Most likely. Would we run wild in the streets killing people? I doubt it.

The Bible is not as important to Christians as the Koran is to Muslims. When Jesus was killed did Christians run in the street and kill people? No, but did they latter? Hell yes. And don't act all holy and say that Christians would not grow at all violent.

[bmolsson]

For the record: As a muslim, I don't really care what the US military does to the Quaran they might have got their hands on. If there was any abuse of ANY prisoner at ANY time, then I get upset.......

[Samurai Waki]

All is fair in love and war. Get Captured. Get Abused. Get Killed. Flush a Koran down the toilet. Use the Bible as Toilet Paper. Put American Flags in piles of dog poop... doesn't really matter, it's intent is all the same. To Upset the other side, all of this eye-for-an-eye bullshit is really boring and indecent. I bet if everyone stopped caring, there'd be no war... or insighting of terrorism of any sort. I understand why the average Muslim gets upset about something like this, the Koran, their faith for the most part, is all that they have... I remind you, that it wasn't that terribly long ago when Christians were at the exact same place. When you have nothing, what else is their to hold onto except faith or hope and to destroy or insult it, is insulting to everyone who believes in it. The reason why there wasn't a Christian outcry over the Terrorists at the Church of Nativity using the bible as toilet paper makes sense, Christians in general, especially Christians living in the Western World have more material possessions and therefore aren't nearly as dogmatic as those of Muslims or people with little material wealth. I think many Christians treat their faith as an incoveniance, but as long as they follow it, they will get into heaven. One of my neighbors in Colorado is an extremely faithful maybe even overly Zealous Christian, who loves his religion dearly, and follows it almost as T, but in all reality he's just using it as a cover for his own indecency, I mean the guy is a state auditor who puts people out their jobs, destroys families, and steals from the tax-payers, but he thinks as long as he goes to Church every sunday its okay for him to do what he does on a daily basis. Maybe getting a bit off topic... but my point is, So the hell what! this is how it is, and it won't change... just look the other way.