FBI Records Cite Quran Abuse Allegations after all

[Proletariat]

The Quran is a miracle in Islam, the Quran is like Jesus in book form. How would people react if Jesus was flushed down the toliet?

Uhm, they Crucified Jesus. And people went on and still held dear his message of salvation.

[Tribesman]

How would people react if Jesus was flushed down the toliet?
It would be OK because we know he will rise again , though having the pipe blocked for three days might be a little inconvenient .

[Adrian II]

Uhm, they Crucified Jesus. And people went on and still held dear his message of salvation.

But the Jews were made to suffer rather more than Newsweek for that Crucifixion..

[Proletariat]

Be nice if they could learn from that page in history, like some cultures have.

[English assassin]

How would people react if Jesus was flushed down the toliet?
It would be OK because we know he will rise again , though having the pipe blocked for three days might be a little inconvenient .

ROFLOL.

Now I have to explain to my trainee exactly what it was I found hysterically funny in the agreement I am "reviewing"

[Franconicus]

Erm, suppose I should explain before I get banned.

These people have to have the most fragile little egos in the history of mankind.

This is merely the nature of fundamentalism. These Muslim fundamentalists merely join the long line of others throughout history, including the Roman emperors, the Roman Catholic Church, the Puritans, Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia, Maoist China, and modern-day fundamentalist Christians (to an extent) in their iconification of certain "sacred" material things, confusing such things with the truly sacred. They all share a similar trait: they are all materialists masquerading as spiritual movements. A truly spiritual understanding would never confuse a physical thing, (a book, a place, a flag) for something truly sacred. Fundamentalists always end up insisting on just that, and then demanding everyone else do so as well. Religions, having lost their connections with the truly sacred, usually end up, at some point, grabbing onto something material and declaring it sacred. That's OK, as far as it goes. If people want to believe certain things, fine. The real problem arises when these same religious materialists take the next step and succeed in assuming temporal power. Then we have disaster.

1. You list a couple of organisations. What they all have in common (except modern .. Christians) is that they were practising torture (did not help them much!) Were the Nazis focused on holy material things?
2. It does not matter much what the moslem fundamenals think. It matters what the rest of the muslems think. Will they be willing to support terror or will they be willing to support the war against it? If US soldiers act against the quran that does not help. It also matters what the US people is doing, if it is true. Will they be saying: It does not matter, because it is good for our national interests. Or: Let us not talk about it. It could do damage to our troops?
3. After the proven cases of torture in that prison in Iraq and the weak reaction from the US government it seems to be possible that these kind of thinks may happen. And that is bad enough.

[Steppe Merc]

1. You list a couple of organisations. What they all have in common (except modern .. Christians) is that they were practising torture (did not help them much!) Were the Nazis focused on holy material things?

Yup. See the thread in the Monastary called "Were Nazis really looking for Devlish things".

[Franconicus]

Yup. See the thread in the Monastary called "Were Nazis really looking for Devlish things".

That were just a couple of idiots, not the main idiology!

[Xiahou]

The Quran is a miracle in Islam, the Quran is like Jesus in book form. How would people react if Jesus was flushed down the toliet?

How would Catholics react if the crucifix was dunked in urine? ...Oh wait, that was already done- and we were told that it was art and free expression. Forget how sacred a thing the Crucifixion is to us- apparently Catholicism doesn't get the kid gloves the way some other religions do.

[Adrian II]

How would Catholics react if the crucifix was dunked in urine? ...Oh wait, that was already done- and we were told that it was art and free expression. Forget how sacred a thing the Crucifixion is to us- apparently Catholicism doesn't get the kid gloves the way some other religions do.

You mean you still don't get it?

Just imagine that some other country had conquered the U.S., that it was holding Americans prisoner and forcing them to defecate on the U.S. flag. Would Americans protest? Of course they would.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

You mean you still don't get it?

Just imagine that some other country had conquered the U.S., that it was holding Americans prisoner and forcing them to defecate on the U.S. flag. Would Americans protest? Of course they would.

Your the one who still doesnt get it. Is Islam a nation now and the Koran their flag? Have we conquered Islam and forced prisoners to defecate on the Koran? It seems that Palestinians have used the holy bible as toilet paper though and barely a wimper from christains. Would we protest. Most likely. Would we run wild in the streets killing people? I doubt it.

[Adrian II]

Your the one who still doesnt get it. Is Islam a nation now and the Koran their flag?

You're getting warmer.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

To bad your getting colder.

[econ21]

It seems that Palestinians have used the holy bible as toilet paper though and barely a wimper from christains.

From the story you cited before, some Palestinians were under siege in a church. My inference was that if they did what you say, it was a case of "needs must". It sounds like a distasteful case of when you gotta go, you gotta go. It does not sound like any attempt to insult Christians (their beef being with Jews, right?); still less break them under interrogation.

But anyway, I think part of the difference is that we expect better of US military guards working by the book than terrorists/freedom fighters under siege.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

Having used newspaper as toilet paper before I've got to say that paper tends to be crap for wiping, eh, crap off your arse unless it is the specially made sort.

If, heaven forbid, I was besieged in a church and needed to wipe I think I'd choose something more absorbent and softer than the pages of the Bible, like cloth (easily found on furnishings, the old T-shirt you happen to be wearing for this fight etc.). I, personally, feel that the wiping with Bible pages was a deliberate insult. Plenty of other material would have been at hand and I bet plenty of paper would have been available in the forms of flyers, leaflets etc. for Christian pilgrims.

I think there's also a bit of a beef between Arab Christians and Muslims seeing as so many Arab Christians have been granted refugee status in other countries.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

From the story you cited before, some Palestinians were under siege in a church. My inference was that if they did what you say, it was a case of "needs must". It sounds like a distasteful case of when you gotta go, you gotta go. It does not sound like any attempt to insult Christians (their beef being with Jews, right?); still less break them under interrogation.

Excuse me they took over the church by force and no one else had to use the bible as toilet paper. Im sure the bible was the only rag lying about LOL.

[Tribesman]

Excuse me they took over the church by force and no one else had to use the bible as toilet paper. Im sure the bible was the only rag lying about LOL.
Are you making all this up as usual Gawain ?
I can find no mentions from any of the priests monks or nuns present during the siege concerning the bible being used as toilet paper , or from any of the parishoners who helped with the cleanup .
BTW they sought refuge in a holy sanctuary , not took it over by force , next you are going to say that they took hostages and set fire to the place , I bet it was really the Palestinians who killed the priest and the bell-ringer

It seems you swallow too much propoganda .
There are some good statements from the Vatican and the other churches that share custody of the Nativity site , but I don't think you will like them Hey there is a lovely bit in the sermon by the Patriach from the first Mass held after the end of the siege , but you definately won't like that , you wouldn't believe how he describes Israels actions and desecrations

[KukriKhan]

Official reminder to all:

Post to the Topic/Post, not the Post-er.

Think twice, and a third time, before using the word "you".

Thank you. Please carry on.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Are you making all this up as usual Gawain ?
I can find no mentions from any of the priests monks or nuns present during the siege concerning the bible being used as toilet paper , or from any of the parishoners who helped with the cleanup .
BTW they sought refuge in a holy sanctuary , not took it over by force , next you are going to say that they took hostages and set fire to the place , I bet it was really the Palestinians who killed the priest and the bell-ringer

It seems you swallow too much propoganda .

Right

CHURCH OF THE NATIVITY
What Happened at the Church of the Nativity in April 2002?
Church of the Nativity, Bethlehem

Church of the Nativity, Bethlehem

On April 2, 2002 armed Palestinian Arab terrorists forced their way into the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem, one of Christianity's most sacred sites, the birthplace of Christ. In the midst of over 200 nuns and priests, they sought refuge from Operation Defensive Shield, the Israel Defense Forces action against suicide bombing activity originating from West Bank locations. For 38 days, until May 10, 2002, the world watched as the gunmen refused to surrender their positions inside the Church. Only Israeli restraint and respect for the Christian shrine prevented the Palestinian desecration from turning into its destruction.

Why was the IDF in Bethlehem at the time? In December, 1995, Israel had turned over control of Bethlehem to the Palestinian Authority, but the PA failed to quell terrorist activities. Quite the contrary; terrorism never stopped and after September 2000, increased dramatically with the al-Aqsa Intifada. In February and March, 2002, more than two dozen Israelis had died in five separate incidents of murder, bombings and gunfire within Israel and the territories, with over six dozen injured. In each case, the Fatah in Bethlehem claimed responsibility for the deaths.

In the first days of April 2002, an IDF Paratroop Brigade moved into the area to seek out and destroy explosives, arms factories and related terrorist infrastructure. A heavily armed band of terrorist gunmen, trying to evade the IDF, moved into Manger Square but found IDF troops and tanks ready for them. That triggered a planned and premediated Palestinian Arab operation to take over the Church of the Nativity.

IDF forces began negotiations to end the takeover. The Palestinian Arabs inside the church included many who were known terrorists and Israel demanded that they surrender. They were members of Palestinian groups on the U.S. Department of State Foreign Terrorist Organizations list, including several Hamas operatives who had killed innocent civilians. Also taking cover in the Church were Tanzim militia leaders from Yasir Arafat's Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) who were involved in recent suicide bombings, plus members of the Al Aqsa Brigade.

Israel identified the terrorist individuals by name and sought to take them into custody; the Palestinian Authority refused to transfer them into Israeli hands. Nor were representatives of other governments helpful in concluding the matter. An early agreement to end the standoff failed when Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi declined to accept the gunmen, saying that no one nation could be asked to take that responsibility, and the European Union needed to find an EU solution.

Israeli negotiating initiatives for humanitarian services during the siege were also rejected. Several efforts to remove injured persons and bodies of the dead were stymied by Palestinian Arab refusal to cooperate, and when International Red Cross representatives, recruited for the task by Israel, adamantly refused to enter the Church.

As IDF operations continued in the area, a nearby explosives laboratory was found and destroyed, and a large pipe bomb in an adjacent mosque was retrieved. Several Hamas and Tanzim operatives were arrested. Eventually some of the Palestinians inside begin surrendering, while occasional exchanges of gunfire occurred. Gradually, various church staff and trapped civilians were evacuated. One by one over time, 95 persons were released during the siege.

During the occupation of the Church of the Nativity, Yasir Arafat complained of the Israelis:

* How could the world possibly be silent about this atrocious crime? ... What concerns me is what is happening at the Church of the Nativity. This is a crime that cannot be forgiven.

More objective observers, such as Ariel Cohen in the National Review, saw things more clearly:

* Using priests and nuns as human shields in the most sacred location for Christianity is not just barbaric. It is a violation of the 1977 First Protocol to the Geneva Convention and is a war crime. Similar cases from the Balkan wars are heard today before the International Criminal Court in the Hague. Only brutal terrorists would desecrate religious shrines and hurt clergy ...

Under worldwide pressure not to damage or desecrate the Church of the Nativity, Israel insisted that the IDF would not attack. Palestinian Arabs played on fears of a bloodbath should Israel invade the Church, but throughout the siege, the IDF held to their promise that not a single Israeli soldier would enter Church premises. An IDF spokesman said:

* IDF commanders have issued specific orders to protect the integrity and sanctity of all holy places in Bethlehem, just as we do in other areas.

A priest inside told the Associated Press that only in the early days he feared the Israelis would rush the building; he later relaxed when the Greek Orthodox patriarchy assured him the Israeli army had guaranteed it would not. While early reports alleged that the IDF had broken the front door, Marc Innaro, an Italian journalist who witnessed the events, said the Palestinians had shot their way in:

* They shot at the doors ... with machine-guns and they opened the doors and rushed inside. We were in a monastery, which is very close, 25 metres near to the Nativity Church.

On May 1, a fire was seen from the distance, but upon investigation turned out to be another location, in an adjacent building. Palestinian Arab "witnesses" claimed that flares fired by Israeli soldiers sparked the blaze, but Israeli government spokesman Dore Gold responded that the fire was intentionally set by Palestinian Arab fighters holed up inside.

Finally, on May 10, after 38 days, the crisis concluded with a negotiated plan. Thirteen "senior terrorists" departed for Cyprus by British aircraft, to be dispersed among various EU nations. Twenty-six more were transported to the Gaza Strip where they were to be put on trial for terrorism. But their arrival in Gaza was greeted with a celebration and they were treated as heroes. One hundred twenty-four other Palestinian Arabs inside the Church were set free.

After the Palestinians' departure, the IDF was invited inside by Church officials to look for explosives or booby traps. An IDF spokesman said that 40 "explosive devices" were found in the Church compound. The IDF reported that seven Palestinians and no Israelis died in the confrontation at the Church.

The Church was not seriously damaged, but cooking utensils, trash, and clothing were strewn around. The debris of the occupation, and the smells of the unsanitary conditions, lingered.

Subsequent to release of the terrorists into European exile, more than fifty Congressmen wrote to United States Attorney-General Ashcroft, demanding that extradition be sought for two of them. Tanzim members Ibrahim Mussa Abayat and Jihad Yusef Halil Ja'ara had murdered an American citizen in Israel before fleeing to the Church of the Nativity. Under US law, individuals who commit acts of terrorism against American nationals may be prosecuted for such acts in the United States, regardless of where the acts took place. Congress has prodded the Executive Branch for enforcement of the law.
Sources and additional reading on this topic:

* The Vatican and the Standoff at the Church of the Nativity
* Church with a turbulent history
* Church of the Nativity attacked
* Massacre fears for 100 trapped in Bethlehem
* Entering the Church
* The Nativity Sin: War crimes in Bethlehem
* Bethlehem Heats Up
* Bethlehem: The Negotiations Concerning the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem (May 9th)
* Church of Nativity undamaged after standoff

Sought refuge my a$$.

LINK

And still no riots.

[Tribesman]

Sought refuge my a$$.
Yep , its there in the first paragraph
In the midst of over 200 nuns and priests, they sought refuge from Operation Defensive Shield,

But what isn't there is any mention of wiping their backsides with bibles ?
Can you provide a link that mentions that little gem ?

but Israeli government spokesman Dore Gold responded that the fire was intentionally set by Palestinian Arab fighters holed up inside.
Now thats curious , they later retracted that claim and admitted it was a flare that caused the blaze .

[Gawain of Orkeny]

In the midst of over 200 nuns and priests, they sought refuge from Operation Defensive Shield,

You left out this little qualifier

On April 2, 2002 armed Palestinian Arab terrorists forced their way into the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem, one of Christianity's most sacred sites, the birthplace of Christ.

You make it sound like they came begging for sanctuary and the preists told them fine come right in.

But what isn't there is any mention of wiping their backsides with bibles ?

It was in the first link and can be found easily with a google search.

Now thats curious , they later retracted that claim and admitted it was a flare that caused the blaze .

Your right the Palestinians behaved like true guests and showed everyone and everything the utmost of respect.

[Tribesman]

It was in the first link and can be found easily with a google search
Yes and a search comes up with lots of sites , all quoting one article in a newspaper as their evidence . Most of them also talk of the Hundreds of armed terrorists aswell , from one source again , the Italian journalist .
Now what was the lesson from the newsweek article about not checking when you are only using one source .

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Yes and a search comes up with lots of sites , all quoting one article in a newspaper as their evidence . Most of them also talk of the Hundreds of armed terrorists aswell , from one source again , the Italian journalist .

There was more than one person who claimed they did this. Thus its mulitple sources. The fact that only one paper otiginaly reported it is a different matter. Even if it were false they still desicrated the church.

Most of them also talk of the Hundreds of armed terrorists aswell

200 doesnt count as hundreds now?

[Tribesman]

There was more than one person who claimed they did this. Thus its mulitple sources
There is only one person named who said this , Nicolas Marquez .

200 doesnt count as hundreds now?
Since when does 39=200 , though of course as there were hundreds of armed terrorists there must have been hundreds of guns recovered after the siege Come on enlighten me , how many firearms were recovered ? How many of those belonged to soldiers and policemen of the Palestinian Authority . Did they manage to sneak all the rest out through the metal detectors

BTW , just to p[oint out how misleading the article you posted is .
Angry Orthodox priests showed reporters empty bottles of whiskey, champagne, vodka, cognac and French wine on the floor along with hundreds of cigarette butts.
Oh the angry priests are complaining about the Palestinians ....they must be mustn't they ?
No they are complaining about the foriegn peace activists who entered the church during the siege .Hmmm.... slightly misleading is it not , but then if you look at the sources and references that the writer of the article used you can seee why the whole article is misleading .

[Redleg]

For anyon that is interested here is an update on the Koran abuse allegations from an Army investigation on the subject.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/securi...southcom01.htm

[KafirChobee]

Gah! The reality is that the Koran (old spelling) was mishandled, abused, used as a threat to believers and probably flushed down a toilet or two, but the military has found a way around accepting responsability for such actions and is willing to point out that they have gleefully investigated cases that had nothing to do with the subject.

Grasp this, if you can, we ain't making friends by denying our militarys' f-ups. Does anyone truely believe that the "Newsweeks" presentation of interigators abusing a "holy" item was pulled out of the air? Yep, they printed a retraction - the accusation was out there for weeks before some islamic propagandist realized its import. After, the retraction and subsequent denials by the pentagon - and after it had fallen out of the headlines - the pentagon said "wellllllllll, some of it might be true, but we never flushed an entire Koran."

Gee, that must be like we only meant to scare him, not kill him.

One can not retract their dislike for a philosophy - religion - by simply saying we only flushed a couple of pages of it.

Surprisingly, the Pentagon did fess up that it did happen.

[Tribesman]

For anyon that is interested here is an update on the Koran abuse allegations from an Army investigation on the subject.
An interesting line keeps popping up in that report .
"We found no evidence"
So thats all well and good then , until you read the rest of the line
"of further investigation into the incident"
so they investigated the reported incidents by looking at the original investigation into the incidents and found that there was no invesigation so that means there cannot have been an incident as it wasn't investigated .

Regarding the "water ballon" incident . Are these highly trained soldiers working in a sensitive environment of utmost importance to the security of the United States and the Western World ? Or are they a bunch of half-wit schoolkids just having a laugh at tax payers expense ?

[Redleg]

Gah! The reality is that the Koran (old spelling) was mishandled, abused, used as a threat to believers and probably flushed down a toilet or two, but the military has found a way around accepting responsability for such actions and is willing to point out that they have gleefully investigated cases that had nothing to do with the subject.

Classic - so calling another human being a lair because he did not find what you believe.

Grasp this, if you can, we ain't making friends by denying our militarys' f-ups. Does anyone truely believe that the "Newsweeks" presentation of interigators abusing a "holy" item was pulled out of the air? Yep, they printed a retraction - the accusation was out there for weeks before some islamic propagandist realized its import. After, the retraction and subsequent denials by the pentagon - and after it had fallen out of the headlines - the pentagon said "wellllllllll, some of it might be true, but we never flushed an entire Koran."

Again Classic - so the military lies but a newsreport has nothing but the truth.

Gee, that must be like we only meant to scare him, not kill him.

One can not retract their dislike for a philosophy - religion - by simply saying we only flushed a couple of pages of it.

Surprisingly, the Pentagon did fess up that it did happen.

And so instead of ranting about stuff that both sides do - maybe you should acknowledge that their was an effort to investigate what happened. I find it interesting that you believe the media over an individual who happens to be military doing an investigation. Hell both have been know to print what benefits them.

[Redleg]

For anyon that is interested here is an update on the Koran abuse allegations from an Army investigation on the subject.
An interesting line keeps popping up in that report .
"We found no evidence"
So thats all well and good then , until you read the rest of the line
"of further investigation into the incident"
so they investigated the reported incidents by looking at the original investigation into the incidents and found that there was no invesigation so that means there cannot have been an incident as it wasn't investigated .

So I guess you missed this part.

“With the other nine incidents, there was either intentional or unintentional mishandling of a Koran,” said Hood. “We defined mishandling as touching, holding or the treatment of a Koran in a manner inconsistent with policy or procedure. We have confirmed that five of these alleged mishandling incidents took place. After thoroughly investigating the four remaining alleged mishandling incidents, we cannot determine conclusively if they actually happened.”

“Mishandling a Koran at Guantanamo Bay is a rare occurrence. Mishandling of a Koran here is never condoned,” said Hood. “When one considers the many thousands of times detainees have been moved and cells have been searched since detention operations first began here in January 2002, I think one can only conclude that respect for detainee religious beliefs was embedded in the culture of the JTF from the start.”



or did you miss this part

In the course of the inquiry, 15 incidents were identified where detainees mishandled Korans. These included using a Koran as a pillow, ripping pages out of the Koran, attempting to flush a Koran down the toilet, and urinating on the Koran.

Regarding the "water ballon" incident . Are these highly trained soldiers working in a sensitive environment of utmost importance to the security of the United States and the Western World ? Or are they a bunch of half-wit schoolkids just having a laugh at tax payers expense ?

Lets see what a search shows - since I don't remember the news reports on that one - and its not in this report.

[doc_bean]

Am I the only one who feels these accusations are so dumb, that the intention of making them is most likely to make the prisoners look like a bunch of religious nuts who deserve to be locked up without due process ?