Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 58

Thread: Interesting article on suicide attacks

  1. #1
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    9,748

    Default Interesting article on suicide attacks

    Well, just when you think nobody has anything new to add to the circular debate about who does what to whom in Iraq, in walks Professor Pape to give you a new perspective.
    The New York Times
    THURSDAY, MAY 19, 2005

    Blowing up an assumption

    by Robert A. Pape *

    CHICAGO Many people are mystified by the recent rise in the number and the audacity of suicide attacks in Iraq. The lull in violence after January's successful elections seemed to suggest that the march of democracy was trampling the threat of terrorism.

    But as electoral politics is taking root, the Iraqi insurgency and suicide terrorism are actually gaining momentum. In the past two weeks, suicide attackers have killed more than 420 Iraqis working with the United States and its allies. There were 20 such incidents in 2003, nearly 50 in 2004, and they are on pace to set a new record this year.

    To make sense of this apparent contradiction, one has to understand the strategic logic of suicide terrorism. Since Muslim terrorists professing religious motives have perpetrated many of the attacks, it might seem obvious that Islamic fundamentalism is the central cause, and thus the wholesale transformation of Muslim societies into secular democracies, even at the barrel of a gun, is the obvious solution.

    However, the presumed connection between suicide terrorism and Islamic fundamentalism is misleading, and it may spur American policies that are likely to worsen the situation.

    Over the past two years, I have compiled a database of every suicide bombing and attack around the globe from 1980 through 2003 - 315 in all. This includes every episode in which at least one terrorist killed himself or herself while trying to kill others, but excludes attacks authorized by a national government (like those by North Korean agents against South Korea). The data show that there is far less of a connection between suicide terrorism and religious fundamentalism than most people think.

    The leading instigators of suicide attacks are the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka, a Marxist-Leninist group whose members are from Hindu families but who are adamantly opposed to religion. This group committed 76 of the 315 incidents, more than Hamas (54) or Islamic Jihad (27).

    Even among Muslims, secular groups like the Kurdistan Workers' Party, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine and the Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades account for more than a third of suicide attacks.

    What nearly all suicide terrorist attacks actually have in common is a specific secular and strategic goal: to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from territory that the terrorists consider to be their homeland. Religion is often used as a tool by terrorist organizations in recruiting and in seeking aid from abroad, but is rarely the root cause.

    Three general patterns in the data support these conclusions.

    First, nearly all suicide terrorist attacks - 301 of the 315 in the period I studied - took place as part of organized political or military campaigns.

    Second, democracies are uniquely vulnerable to suicide terrorists; America, France, India, Israel, Russia, Sri Lanka and Turkey have been the targets of almost every suicide attack of the past two decades.

    Third, suicide terrorist campaigns are directed toward a strategic objective: From Lebanon to Israel to Sri Lanka to Kashmir to Chechnya, the sponsors of every campaign - 18 organizations in all - are seeking to establish or maintain political self-determination.

    Before Israel's invasion of Lebanon in 1982, there was no Hezbollah suicide terrorist campaign against Israel; indeed, Hezbollah came into existence only after this event. Before the Sri Lankan military began moving into the Tamil homelands of the island in 1987, the Tamil Tigers did not use suicide attacks. Before the huge increase in Jewish settlers on the West Bank in the 1980s, Palestinian groups did not use suicide terrorism. And, true to form, there had never been a documented suicide attack in Iraq until after the American invasion in 2003.

    Much is made of the fact that we aren't sure who the Iraqi suicide attackers are. This is not unusual in the early years of a suicide terrorist campaign. Hezbollah published most of the biographies and last testaments of its "martyrs" only after it abandoned the suicide-attack strategy in 1986, a pattern adopted by the Tamil Tigers as well.

    At the moment, our best information indicates that the attackers in Iraq are Sunni Iraqis and foreign fighters, principally from Saudi Arabia. If so, this would mean that the two main sources of suicide terrorists in Iraq are from the Arab countries deemed most vulnerable to transformation by the presence of American combat troops. This is fully consistent with what we now know about the strategic logic of suicide terrorism.

    Some have wondered if the rise of suicide terrorism in Iraq is really such a bad thing for American security. Is it not better to have these killers far away in Iraq rather than here in the United States? Alas, history shows otherwise.

    The presence of tens of thousands of American combat forces on the Arabian Peninsula after 1990 enabled Al Qaeda to recruit suicide terrorists, who in turn attacked Americans in the region (the African embassy bombings in 1998 and the attack on the destroyer Cole in 2000).

    The presence of nearly 150,000 American combat troops in Iraq since 2003 can only give suicide terrorism a boost, and the longer this suicide terrorist campaign continues the greater the risk of new attacks in the United States.

    Understanding that suicide terrorism is mainly a response to foreign occupation rather than a product of Islamic fundamentalism has important implications for how the United States and its allies should conduct the war on terrorism. Spreading democracy across the Gulf is not likely to be a panacea so long as foreign combat troops remain on the Arabian Peninsula.

    If not for the world's interest in Gulf oil, the obvious solution might well be simply to abandon the region altogether. Isolationism, however, is not possible; America needs a new strategy that pursues its vital interest in oil but does not stimulate the rise of a new generation of suicide terrorists.

    Beyond recognizing the limits of military action and stepping up domestic security efforts, Americans would do well to recall the virtues of their traditional policy of "offshore balancing" in the Gulf.

    During the 1970s and 80s, the United States managed its interests there without stationing any combat soldiers on the ground, but keeping its forces close enough - either on ships or on bases near the region - to deploy in huge numbers if an emergency arose. This worked splendidly to defeat Iraq's aggression against Kuwait in 1990.

    The Bush administration rightly intends to start turning over the responsibility for Iraq's security to the new government and systematically withdrawing American troops. But large numbers of these soldiers should not simply be sent to Iraq's neighbors, where they will continue to enrage many in the Arab world.

    Keeping the peace from a discreet distance seems a better way to secure American interests in the world's key oil-producing region without provoking more terrorism.

    * Robert A. Pape, an associate professor of political science at the University of Chicago, is the author of the forthcoming Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

  2. #2

    Default Re: Interesting article on suicide attacks

    I like it. It makes sense.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Interesting article on suicide attacks

    Very interesting analysis.

    I would argue that the presence of US troops on the peninsula has been a stabilizing force on a macro scale, even though it causes problems on a micro scale.

  4. #4
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    15,677

    Default Re: Interesting article on suicide attacks

    Understanding that suicide terrorism is mainly a response to foreign occupation rather than a product of Islamic fundamentalism has important implications for how the United States and its allies should conduct the war on terrorism.
    Okay but one flaw and it was the biggest and nastiest suicide attack of all time.

    9/11 which group was looking for self determination and where?
    Was the USA in Afghanistan at that point?
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
    Pape for global overlord!!
    Quote Originally Posted by English assassin
    Squid sources report that scientists taste "sort of like chicken"
    Quote Originally Posted by frogbeastegg View Post
    The rest is either as average as advertised or, in the case of the missionary, disappointing.

  5. #5
    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    U.S.
    Posts
    7,237

    Default Re: Interesting article on suicide attacks

    the terrorists in iraq are trying to achieve what?
    an end to american occupation?

    the US will leave when the terrorists are taken care of and when Iraq is a semi-stable democracy

    so if they just gave up their arms, they would get their wish

    alas - this is not their intent - far be it from me to know what the intent is, but i assume that for the sunnis it is to weaken the democracy in which they have little control and subjugate the majority of iraqis once more - that simply should not ever happen


    this guy proposes that we leave all islamic countries and watch them from afar?

    some of his ideas are good - but i think that the overall message is wrong
    he is saying that the US is only involved for oil interests

    i think that it is much more complex than this
    The US is torn between "cultural relativism" and an actual belief that there is right and wrong in the world - such as allowing people to have a certain voice in their governments and not to be harrassed too much - as well as stoping leaders who idolize despotic and genocidal rulers and in turn promote a way of ruling a country that is unacceptable in an intellectual and humanitaian modern world

    also - if you really think that "everything is relative", what is the problem with a western power doing what it does best? wage war for "moral" reasons
    people will die under cruel regimes as well

    what are you actually trying to prevent?
    if it is injustice or death, i think that opposing US policy across the board is the furthest thing from that goal i nthe long run - but that is my opinion
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 05-26-2005 at 05:21.
    "That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
    -Eric "George Orwell" Blair

    "If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
    (Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

  6. #6
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    The EUSSR
    Posts
    30,680

    Default Re: Interesting article on suicide attacks

    Have to agree with Tuffstuff. And what is the alternative?

  7. #7
    American since 2012 Senior Member AntiochusIII's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Lalaland
    Posts
    3,125

    Default Re: Interesting article on suicide attacks

    I disagree - if everybody holds up so tightly that he is right like Tuff, the whole world will be engulfed with war by now.

    It is easy for you to say that if somebody gives up his arm, he would get his wish.

    I doubt the Bush administration is that honest - and no, that's not because it's Bush's...but...it's politician's. You know what I mean.

    That doesn't excuse the terrorists' attacks, either, but so America have no place in coming into every country in the world declaring her self-proclaimed moral superiority.

    Moral relativism is far more complex than just a "we are nothingness" that you seem to intrepet it as.

    Though the presence of the US military holds some extremism from expressing, it doesn't, and will never, eliminate them. The extremism will grow and grow as moderate resentments turns to radical rage.

    The US is no god-like blessed nation of superior people. Such thoughts...are racist at worst and misguided at best. It is an illusion to think that the US is campaigning in the world to establish a new "Jerusalem" as in the Bible. Such thoughts lead to blind pride. Indeed, I do not blame the US that it plays its own games for its own benefits as it is ruled by politicians and each nation is, as history proves it, always interested in themselves first.

    But don't try to justify the invasions. If there is any one truth at all, then it is that imposing your so-called superiority over others is the source of conflicts and all the negativities that come with conflicts. And by you I mean nobody in particular.
    Last edited by AntiochusIII; 05-26-2005 at 05:53.

  8. #8
    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    U.S.
    Posts
    7,237

    Default Re: Interesting article on suicide attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by AntiochusIII
    I disagree - if everybody holds up so tightly that he is right like Tuff, the whole world will be engulfed with war by now.

    It is easy for you to say that if somebody gives up his arm, he would get his wish.

    I doubt the Bush administration is that honest - and no, that's not because it's Bush's...but...it's politician's. You know what I mean.

    That doesn't excuse the terrorists' attacks, either, but so America have no place in coming into every country in the world declaring her self-proclaimed moral superiority.

    Moral relativism is far more complex than just a "we are nothingness" that you seem to intrepet it as.

    Though the presence of the US military holds some extremism from expressing, it doesn't, and will never, eliminate them. The extremism will grow and grow as moderate resentments turns to radical rage.

    The US is no god-like blessed nation of superior people. Such thoughts...are racist at worst and misguided at best. It is an illusion to think that the US is campaigning in the world to establish a new "Jerusalem" as in the Bible. Such thoughts lead to blind pride. Indeed, I do not blame the US that it plays its own games for its own benefits as it is ruled by politicians and each nation is, as history proves it, always interested in themselves first.

    But don't try to justify the invasions. If there is any one truth at all, then it is that imposing your so-called superiority over others is the source of conflicts and all the negativities that come with conflicts. And by you I mean nobody in particular.

    you say that believing that you are right is what causes conflicts?
    what are you supposed to do? believe that you are wrong and not fight for anything? or fight all those who believe in anything?

    i just dont get it
    you rebuked my arguement - you obviously BELIEVE that i am mistaken and are arguing your point

    if you really believed in sitting back and "not imposing" your beliefs was a realistic option, you wouldnt have hit the reply button

    i was expressing a differing opinion from the one of the guy who wrote the article and i was told that "people liek me are the ones who create wars"

    we are also the ones who defend the rest of us from others who wage wars - without whom those who just "stop-trying to impose their views" would (i believe) never fight past the point at which they didnt feel they could win the fight

    some of the best battles are won when all seems lost - and the only thing that keeps you fighting until then is a beleif that you are fighting for what is right

    i dont necessarilly beleive that i am right - i just think that my point is a decent one and worth conscidering

    i try to follow logical paths until they dont seem logical - and coming from 2 thousand years of increasing humanitarianism and benevolence i dont want to see it flushed down the toilet because others have stopped believing in these ideals when we have so much power and are so much closer than we have ever been to at least making the playing field fair

    the only reason i want to see america stay powerful is because i beleive that it is a force for good in the world

    not because i want to wear thousand dollar watches and screw as many girls as i want in a mansion - but because i believe that our wealth - if in the hands of the right peopl can make the world better

    when people attack the US after losing site of what they were supposed to be fighting for, it makes me frustrated - people beleive that the US is the most internationally dangerous nation on earth? there go my ideals and the entire concept i have believed in

    i see petty warring nations as a step backwards and would like to see the planet on a similar ethical level

    anyway - those are some fragmented thoughts
    my headache is raging
    sleepytime
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 05-26-2005 at 06:15.
    "That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
    -Eric "George Orwell" Blair

    "If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
    (Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

  9. #9
    American since 2012 Senior Member AntiochusIII's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Lalaland
    Posts
    3,125

    Default Re: Interesting article on suicide attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
    you say that believing that you are right is what causes conflicts?
    what are you supposed to do? believe that you are wrong and not fight for anything? or fight all those who believe in anything?
    No, I said: hold up so tightly. In other words, intolerance.

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
    i just dont get it
    you rebuked my arguement - you obviously BELIEVE that i am mistaken and are arguing your point
    Yes, I believe you are mistaken and I am here to listen to your argument and take it into account.

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
    if you really believed in sitting back and "not imposing" your beliefs was a realistic option, you wouldnt have hit the reply button
    Discussion and imposition are two different things. Discussion is when you present your ideas (and you certainly have the right to believe and present your ideas anywhere) and discovers other's. Imposition is when you *force* your ideas upon others. This forcefulness can be both conscious and unconscious, intentional and unintentional.

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
    i was expressing a differing opinion from the one of the guy who wrote the article and i was told that "people liek me are the ones who create wars"
    I was expressing my own opinions that some of the reasons of your arguments are 'wrong' as I should put it (keyword: opinion), and you are entitled to your opinion as well - I won't force you to follow me, don't worry.

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
    we are also the ones who defend the rest of us from others who wage wars - without whom those who just "stop-trying to impose their views" would (i believe) never fight past the point at which they didnt feel they could win the fight
    ? Please elaborate.

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
    some of the best battles are won when all seems lost - and the only thing that keeps you fighting until then is a beleive that you are fighting for what is right
    Honorable idea, but, the worse comes far too often than the better. The terrorists believe they are fighting desperately for what is right, by the way. Not that I agree with them...

  10. #10
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    15,677

    Default Re: Interesting article on suicide attacks

    Lawrence of Arabia 'Kill, Kill them all.' circa 1915

    Post modern Lawrence of Arabia
    'Suicide, Sucide Bomb them all.' circa 2005
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
    Pape for global overlord!!
    Quote Originally Posted by English assassin
    Squid sources report that scientists taste "sort of like chicken"
    Quote Originally Posted by frogbeastegg View Post
    The rest is either as average as advertised or, in the case of the missionary, disappointing.

  11. #11
    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    U.S.
    Posts
    7,237

    Default Re: Interesting article on suicide attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by AntiochusIII
    No, I said: hold up so tightly. In other words, intolerance.

    Yes, I believe you are mistaken and I am here to listen to your argument and take it into account.

    Discussion and imposition are two different things. Discussion is when you present your ideas (and you certainly have the right to believe and present your ideas anywhere) and discovers other's. Imposition is when you *force* your ideas upon others. This forcefulness can be both conscious and unconscious, intentional and unintentional.

    I was expressing my own opinions that some of the reasons of your arguments are 'wrong' as I should put it (keyword: opinion), and you are entitled to your opinion as well - I won't force you to follow me, don't worry.

    ? Please elaborate.

    Honorable idea, but, the worse comes far too often than the better. The terrorists believe they are fighting desperately for what is right, by the way. Not that I agree with them...
    what do you believe in?
    what is worth fighting for?

    in war - do you only fight until the enemy is pushed beyond your borders?
    or is that shortsighted as they will come back and defeat you?

    it is tough - you cant just say - "dont impose yourself"
    people impose themselves constantly - in many aspects of life
    and in many ways a good result comes out of it

    look at de-segregation - or the war in the balkans
    what "right" did we have to enter into either one of those conflicts? we did - and we are all the better for it

    we all inhabit this planet - if you believe that something is wrong - fight it
    period

    we all die - why not attempt to change things as hard as you can
    "That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
    -Eric "George Orwell" Blair

    "If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
    (Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

  12. #12
    American since 2012 Senior Member AntiochusIII's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Lalaland
    Posts
    3,125

    Default Re: Interesting article on suicide attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
    what do you believe in?
    what is worth fighting for?
    Against imposition, a form of dictatorship. Or should I say, dictatorship is a form of imposition? Since it imposes one's authority above all others.

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
    in war - do you only fight until the enemy is pushed beyond your borders?
    or is that shortsighted as they will come back and defeat you?
    There is one big question though: must there be war? But if there is one, I would not be the one to fight, but, rather, mediate.

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
    it is tough - you cant just say - "dont impose yourself"
    people impose themselves constantly - in many aspects of life
    and in many ways a good result comes out of it
    More bad comes from it. Censorship is imposition; conflicts often, if not always, comes from one party's imposition of its/his/her ideas on others; war and conquest is imposition, as you impose your rule over another. (Again, you is not pointing at Tuff, but "you" as an abstract pronoun).

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
    look at de-segregation - or the war in the balkans
    what "right" did we have to enter into either one of those conflicts? we did - and we are all the better for it
    Good example, but not the case so for Iraq. I would argue that the invasion of Iraq ruins the country and left it vulnerable for a radical theocracy. Saddam Hussein, an evil bastard as he is, is an enemy of these radical theocracies. The fall of Milosevich (sp?) is replaced by a strong peacekeeping force of the NATO, an international organization in its root and nature. The fall of the dictatorial Iraqi regime opens the once-closed gates of radicalism. Yes, Hussein should be deposed, but not by a foreign invader, but within the Iraqi population. A foreign aid, yes, but not imposing outright invasion. The Balkan peoples, on the other hand, were fighting already but losing.

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
    we all inhabit this planet - if you believe that something is wrong - fight it
    period
    That is why there is conflict.

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
    we all die - why not attempt to change things as hard as you can
    Why do so at the cost of so much lives, and probably saving very few, if none at all? Why do so just because you did not try to see from others' eyes before? Why do so just for the sake of it?

    Perhaps I was raised under Buddhist ideology that I am so open to some Western ideas like "freedom of..." and "right to..." of humanity. Interesting.
    Last edited by AntiochusIII; 05-26-2005 at 06:48.

  13. #13
    Member Member bmolsson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Jakarta, Indonesia
    Posts
    3,029

    Default Re: Interesting article on suicide attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
    what do you believe in?
    what is worth fighting for?

    in war - do you only fight until the enemy is pushed beyond your borders?
    or is that shortsighted as they will come back and defeat you?

    it is tough - you cant just say - "dont impose yourself"
    people impose themselves constantly - in many aspects of life
    and in many ways a good result comes out of it

    look at de-segregation - or the war in the balkans
    what "right" did we have to enter into either one of those conflicts? we did - and we are all the better for it

    we all inhabit this planet - if you believe that something is wrong - fight it
    period

    we all die - why not attempt to change things as hard as you can
    I don't think that we could call the war against terror an idealistic war. Neither do I think we could call the suicide bombers for freedom fighters or insurgents. It's more police versus criminal thing. The terrorists are criminals who needs to be detained......

  14. #14
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    9,748

    Default Re: Interesting article on suicide attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Papewaio
    Okay but one flaw and it was the biggest and nastiest suicide attack of all time. 9/11 which group was looking for self determination and where?
    Ever heard of a group called Al Qaida? They're Saudi's looking to get the U.S. to withdraw from the peninsula.
    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
    so if they just gave up their arms, they would get
    their wish
    Oh yeah, that's a sure Nobel Peace prize winner.

    Sjeesj, why do I bother?
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

  15. #15
    Nobody Important Member Somebody Else's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    At her Majesty's service
    Posts
    2,445

    Default Re: Interesting article on suicide attacks

    I dunno - but if I someone were to start dictating how I live my life, enforcing it with brute strength - I very much doubt I'd be too happy about it, and I'd probably give someone a good ol' thump.

    Example - I drink, sometimes too much - and I know that. But if someone were to come along and slap me every time I touched alcohol, I'd get really rather annoyed, and still not stop. It's something that I'll have to cut down on myself, and I will, in time. Changing people is not something that can be done from outside - it has to come from within.

    Now, expand that to America telling people that democracy is the best form of government. I'm sure it is, but nothing changes overnight, and there could have been so many better ways to effect a change of government - not through war, not through funding terrorist rebel groups. Ideas, suggest the right ideas to people, and they'll change themselves, without feeling resentful.
    Don't have any aspirations - they're doomed to fail.

    Rumours...

  16. #16
    Senior Member Senior Member econ21's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    9,651

    Default Re: Interesting article on suicide attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Papewaio
    Okay but one flaw and it was the biggest and nastiest suicide attack of all time.

    9/11 which group was looking for self determination and where?
    Was the USA in Afghanistan at that point?
    My interpretation of 9/11 was that it's immediate origins stemmed from the presence of US troops in Saudi Arabia[1]. That fits with the thesis of original article, which seems cogent to me.

    [1]This interpetation is based on the statements and personal history of Osama Bin Laden, and the fact that most of the 9/11 attackers were Saudis, I believe under his direct control.

  17. #17
    Member Senior Member Proletariat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Far up in the Magnolia Tree.
    Posts
    3,550

    Default Re: Interesting article on suicide attacks

    Does a US base in Saudi Arabia for the purposes of defending Kuwait constitute an occupation? Sounds like a stretch to me...

  18. #18
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    9,748

    Default Re: Interesting article on suicide attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Proletariat
    Does a US base in Saudi Arabia for the purposes of defending Kuwait constitute an occupation? Sounds like a stretch to me...
    Is it really news to anybody that throughout the entire region the Saudi Monarchy has always been perceived as a foreign construct, propped up by British and then U.S. support? In that sense, the fall of the Twin Towers was geostrategically symbolic as well as in other ways. The Shah was one pillar, the House of Saud is the other.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

  19. #19
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    15,677

    Default Re: Interesting article on suicide attacks

    During the 1970s and 80s, the United States managed its interests there without stationing any combat soldiers on the ground, but keeping its forces close enough - either on ships or on bases near the region - to deploy in huge numbers if an emergency arose. This worked splendidly to defeat Iraq's aggression against Kuwait in 1990.
    If AQ is attacking the US because they have a base in Saudi Arabia then Professor Papes stance is not going to reduce terrorism against the US.

    US was attacked using the stance Professor Pape sanctions. His strategy does not stop the largest terrorist suicide attack in history.

    Hence the gaping flaw in his arguement.
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
    Pape for global overlord!!
    Quote Originally Posted by English assassin
    Squid sources report that scientists taste "sort of like chicken"
    Quote Originally Posted by frogbeastegg View Post
    The rest is either as average as advertised or, in the case of the missionary, disappointing.

  20. #20
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    9,748

    Default Re: Interesting article on suicide attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Papewaio
    US was attacked using the stance Professor Pape sanctions.
    U.S. was attacked using Saudi soil as massive invasion spring board & desecrating holy land. Hence the gaping flaw in Papewaio's argument.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

  21. #21
    Member Senior Member Proletariat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Far up in the Magnolia Tree.
    Posts
    3,550

    Default Re: Interesting article on suicide attacks

    So what should the US have done, according to Professor Adrian? Since the big mistake was 'occupying', lol, Saudi Arabia.

    Just let Kuwait go?

  22. #22
    Member Senior Member Proletariat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Far up in the Magnolia Tree.
    Posts
    3,550

    Default Re: Interesting article on suicide attacks

    Btw, are we occupying Germany? Or S. Korea? I never thought we did, but hey. They might be readying some suicide planes up for NY and we'll have never seen it coming.

  23. #23
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    15,677

    Default Re: Interesting article on suicide attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by AdrianII
    U.S. was attacked using Saudi soil as massive invasion spring board & desecrating holy land. Hence the gaping flaw in Papewaio's argument.
    Does or Does not Professor Pape state the following:

    During the 1970s and 80s, the United States managed its interests there without stationing any combat soldiers on the ground, but keeping its forces close enough - either on ships or on bases near the region - to deploy in huge numbers if an emergency arose. This worked splendidly to defeat Iraq's aggression against Kuwait in 1990.
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
    Pape for global overlord!!
    Quote Originally Posted by English assassin
    Squid sources report that scientists taste "sort of like chicken"
    Quote Originally Posted by frogbeastegg View Post
    The rest is either as average as advertised or, in the case of the missionary, disappointing.

  24. #24
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    9,748

    Default Re: Interesting article on suicide attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Proletariat
    So what should the US have done, according to Professor Adrian? Since the big mistake was 'occupying', lol, Saudi Arabia.

    Just let Kuwait go?
    I don't give a hoot what Pape advocates. I think his analysis of suicide-bombing is a hell of a lot more relevant than much of what I have seen elsewhere, and so far no one here has shot a hole in it. And it might help people help understand why Iraqi's aren't cheering their liberators but fighting them, even if they lose their lives in bomb attacks. Do you have an alternative explanation apart from helpless oneliners about psychopaths and flushed Qurans?
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

  25. #25
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    15,677

    Default Re: Interesting article on suicide attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by AdrianII
    I don't give a hoot what Pape advocates. I think his analysis of suicide-bombing is a hell of a lot more relevant than much of what I have seen elsewhere, and so far no one here has shot a hole in it. And it might help people help understand why Iraqi's aren't cheering their liberators but fighting them, even if they lose their lives in bomb attacks. Do you have an alternative explanation apart from helpless oneliners about psychopaths and flushed Qurans?
    I ripped such a large whole in it that it makes the Beriut Marine Barracks Bombing look like a nose bleed.

    The single largest suicide attack in history occured while the US employed the strategy that Professor Pape advocates. Professor Pape advocates bases such as those in Saudi Arabia which defended Kuwait.

    Professor Pape is against the occupation of Iraq. What he fails to point out is that 9/11 occured while the policy was the same as which he advocates.

    What he suggests does not stop the likes of 9/11.
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
    Pape for global overlord!!
    Quote Originally Posted by English assassin
    Squid sources report that scientists taste "sort of like chicken"
    Quote Originally Posted by frogbeastegg View Post
    The rest is either as average as advertised or, in the case of the missionary, disappointing.

  26. #26

    Default Re: Interesting article on suicide attacks

    U.S. was attacked using Saudi soil as massive invasion spring board & desecrating holy land. Hence the gaping flaw in Papewaio's argument.
    Wow. Someone's had too much cool-aid.

  27. #27
    Member Senior Member Proletariat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Far up in the Magnolia Tree.
    Posts
    3,550

    Default Re: Interesting article on suicide attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by AdrianII
    I don't give a hoot what Pape advocates.
    Why'd you post it?


    Quote Originally Posted by AdrianII
    I think his analysis of suicide-bombing is a hell of a lot more relevant than much of what I have seen elsewhere, and so far no one here has shot a hole in it.
    When I asked a question concerning the premise, I was condescended to.

    Is it really news to anybody...
    Quote Originally Posted by AdrianII
    And it might help people help understand why Iraqi's aren't cheering their liberators but fighting them, even if they lose their lives in bomb attacks. Do you have an alternative explanation apart from helpless oneliners about psychopaths and flushed Qurans?
    I still maintain what I argued (with myself) here.

    It's a systemic problem with a whole culture.

  28. #28
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    9,748

    Default Re: Interesting article on suicide attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Papewaio
    Does or Does not Professor Pape state the following:
    He writes that the U.S. stayed on in the region after 1990 and was therefore seen as an occupying force:
    The presence of tens of thousands of American combat forces on the Arabian Peninsula after 1990 enabled Al Qaeda to recruit suicide terrorists, who in turn attacked Americans in the region (the African embassy bombings in 1998 and the attack on the destroyer Cole in 2000).
    You can check various websites about how and why Al Qaida started its armed strategy against U.S. interests in the Gulf after 1991. You can also check their manifestos and see they direct their efforts toward a U.S. withdrawal from the peninsula.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

  29. #29

    Default Re: Interesting article on suicide attacks

    It is the fact the US troops are visible marching around Saudi Arabia (which is holy ground to Muslims) that is bothering the fundamentalists. In the First Gulf War, the Saudi's were extremely irritated to see female soldiers and they requested that the chaplains did not wear insignia while there.

    By keeping troops on boats or in Turkey (a member of NATO and more progressive than Saudi Arabia, which is what I believe Pape means by "bases near the region" - not in the Middle East, but near it), they are removing the visible presence of troops in a volatile region while reassuring the governments of Saudi Arabia and Kuwait that troops are nearby.

    After the first Gulf War, many Saudi's protested against the US presence in Saudi Arabia, that their presence defiled their holy lands, and demanded that they be sent home. These demands were not addressed and the house of Saud is seen by too many Saudi's as being traitors.

    Muslims dislike the presence of Western troops in the Middle East as they invoke memories of Crusaders.

    It does not matter what Bush says about withdrawal, they do not believe him as they have been lied to by the Americans before, and they still remember with disgust and hatred the shooting down of an aircraft full of Iranians by the USS Vincennes.
    Last edited by Grey_Fox; 05-27-2005 at 01:14.

  30. #30
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    9,748

    Default Re: Interesting article on suicide attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Proletariat
    It's a systemic problem with a whole culture.
    What culture? Tamil culture? Tamil Tigers aren't even religious, yet blow themselves up in a fight against occupiers. So the thesis that suicide bombing is a systemic problem of Muslims might not be adequate. Correlation points in a different direction: occupation is a systemic problem that provokes suicide tactics.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO