Carthage strategy - the No-Blitz strategy

[Emren]

I've recently experimented with playing Carthage - and NOT doing the early rush on the Romans (this is VH/M with 1.2, only using the CVP-mod).

Basically, I want to try out a strategy which involves a longer period of peace with the Romans, and thus a longer time to build up my forces and infrastructure. So it involves a lot of diplomacy, getting treaties and trade agreements, while using most of my denarii to expand ports, trade buildings and roads. So far, I'm having a lot of fun!

Usually, the Scipii will attack Syracuse rather than Lilybaeum. Depending on how this war/siege goes, the Romans will then turn on me if they are succesful quickly, or they will get bogged down and start to "drip" armies from Italy. I don't believe it's either necessary or desirable to go to war too early as Carthage, because eventually you'll find yourself embroiled in war with the Romans, Numidians, Spanish and possibly the Gauls.

Does anyone else have experience with a similar strategy?

[Aetius the Last Roman]

Kick the Romans out of Sicily then bring them to the peace table.

Then turn on the numidians and make sure you can keep the Spanish at war with the Gauls and take the Spanish side.

This should give you enough time, get rid of you big Southern problem, keep Roman and Celt-iberians at bay. However, diplomacy isn't always favourable.

[Grey_Fox]

I wait until the Scipii besiege Syracuse. usually they'll leave a token force to garisson Massena, and I use the stack that is already at Lilybaeum to assault Massena (you could be nasty and tell the Greeks you will attack the Scipii for cash).

After that, it;s a matter of choice. You can build up your empire and reinforce Caralis (which is usually attacked by the Julii), or you sed your army in Syracuse and take Croton, Tarentum and Capua (which is what I did, altough it took about 20 turns as the Romans sent an army almost every turn).

Right now I have one stack conquering North Africa, another stack marching from Iberia to northern Italy (recreating Hannibal's arch was a dream I've had since I first got the game) while another stack is guarding my Iberian posessions.

[Grey_Fox]

In other words, no I've not tried turtling with Carthhage.

[PseRamesses]

I've recently experimented with playing Carthage - and NOT doing the early rush on the Romans (this is VH/M with 1.2, only using the CVP-mod).
Basically, I want to try out a strategy which involves a longer period of peace with the Romans, and thus a longer time to build up my forces and infrastructure. So it involves a lot of diplomacy, getting treaties and trade agreements, while using most of my denarii to expand ports, trade buildings and roads. So far, I'm having a lot of fun!
Usually, the Scipii will attack Syracuse rather than Lilybaeum. Depending on how this war/siege goes, the Romans will then turn on me if they are succesful quickly, or they will get bogged down and start to "drip" armies from Italy. I don't believe it's either necessary or desirable to go to war too early as Carthage, because eventually you'll find yourself embroiled in war with the Romans, Numidians, Spanish and possibly the Gauls.
Does anyone else have experience with a similar strategy?

Yup, since Carthage was a trading empire and not bent on conquest this seems to be the most historical approach. Now, I´m playing RTR which is a completely different setup from the one you´re playing. Only one Roman faction plua the senate, no Romans in Sicily - Messana is rebel and Greece holds Syracuse and Agrigentum while Carthage holds Lilybaeum and Panormu there (yes, there are 5 provs in Sicily). Corsica is opened up and Sardinia contains two provinces. Furthermore Africa contains 3-4 more carthagininan provinces and 3 rebel ones and Iberia has 4 more rebel provs.
This setting allows you to hold peace with the Numidians and Iberians for a long time and an alliance with Greece since they will be assaulted by the Romans, Macedon, Thrace etc on the first couple of turns. Usually I take the rebel provinces in the first couple of turns and if Numidia do become hostile I take their coastal provinces and make them a protectorate/ trading partner completely tucked away behind the Atlas moutain range in Africa interior.
The RTR-mod is the best scenario IMO for playing a long and peaceful trading game with the Carthaginians. In one game the Ptolemies stabbed me in the back so I swiftly took Crete, Rhodes, Cyprus and the old Phoenician cities of Tyre and Sidon before they was subdued into a protectorate. I was bathing in cash, had zillions in the bank, full production ques and could easily bribe off the whole Roman army if they would become a threat.

[pezhetairoi]

This should go into the Carthage guide thread. Makes for an interesting alternative.

[Emren]

Thanks for the replies, guys. I was wondering if I should have started this thread in the Carthage guide section, but I decided against it because that particular thread is very heavy on blitzing, and everyone that has posted there seems to think it's gospel!

I'm going to try RTR 6.0 when it comes out (I haven't tried any of the big mods yet), and then use this "turtling" strategy. Obviously, if your playing style is very aggressive, then this strategy is not for you! But I think it's great fun to try and play a bit more historical, and that means biding your time and waiting for the Romans to attack.

The big dilemma is really Syracuse. If you get the alliance with the Greeks early on, should you intervene when the Romans attack? Because if you decide to help the Greeks, you're most likely facing war with the Romans already on turn 3-6, which IMO is even a bit too soon (would be nice if you could support your allies without declaring war! ). The whole point of delaying the war with the Romans is to give you time to expand either in Africa, at a cost to the Numidians, or preferably in Spain, where your prime objective should be Carthago Nova, in order to secure yet another port in the Mediterranean.

Keep the comments coming, guys, it's nice to discuss alternative strategies!

[player1]

To me, it was effective strategy to ally from start to Iberians and Numidians, and take out romans (and greek Syracuse too), as well as taking that galic city in Spain.

But, I guess that is a rush strategy...

[The Stranger]

with Carthage you should flood the world with cheep iberian infantry and round shields

[Dutch_guy]

Never done this tactic with Carthage , but this thread had made me interrested so I'm probably going to try it out in my new RTR campaign

[player1]

with Carthage you should flood the world with cheep iberian infantry and round shields

And then drown in upkeep...
170 upkeep for 7attack, 8 defense unit?

P.S.
Cavalry is better since for 2/3 unit sized compared to infantry, it has 110 upkeep and better stats. Really encourages some cavalry spamming.

[The Stranger]

in my game a 6 attack and 10 defence

[The Stranger]

btw wait till you encounter some spartan spears

[player1]

btw wait till you encounter some spartan spears

I doubt that iberians will help against spartan spears...

[Emren]

In my current game, Scipii started out by taking Syracuse. I quickly got alliances with all of Numidia, Spain and the Helenistic League (a.k.a. the Greek Cities). The Scipii chased a small Greek relief force across Sicily towards Lilybaeum. Then a Greek diplomat came to me and asked me to attack the Scipii, to honour our alliance, I suppose. So I did!

At the current state, my navy is supreme, and I'm blockading all of Scipii's ports. I have not yet taken either Syracuse or Messana, mainly because I have focused on dominating the seaways, so I have not built many troops at all. I have expanded into Africa, getting the two rebel provinces at the coast. Next on the agenda IS to actually take both Syracuse and Messana, to dominate the island. I have not yet the infantry to assault the cities, but soon I will start producing Long Shield Cavalry, and so I plan to simply siege the cities, and defeat any sallying forces.

I have found that putting as many resources into building your navy early on as you can spare, is a great way to contain and control the Scipii. I have gold chevron Triremes already, at app. 255 BC, and I win almost all naval encounters.

[SpencerH]

I never blitz, I only go to war if attacked. So my campaign with Carthage unfolded with taking Sicily. Numidea became a protectorate. Eventually I captured Italy, southern France and Spain (in that order). Finally I took the three cities around Thebes from the Egyptians and quit playing.

[katank]

@ All,
I suppose I'm partially at fault for turning blitz into "gospel" if you will. I would still suggest you all post in the Guides forum though.

As for the entire turtling strategy, the problem is preventing Roman aggression in the first place. I find it difficult to prevent a Julii move on Caralis. Only response is to sink their fleet which results in war.

Once in war, I find it more productive to hit them hard rather than embroil oneself in a major stalemate.

I've never successfully kept the peace with Rome for more than about 10 turns or so.