afraid of

[barocca]

I have not checked the current set of stats in use

all minor glitches (welsh bandit rebels for example) will be fi=ound and fixed for the next incarnation of Samurai

now, assuming "afraid of" is not in the current stats what units should be afraid of whom?


Everyone should be afraid of Kensai EXCept Hatamoto and Kensai
Everyone should be afraid of Monks EXCept Guns and Monks
Everyone should be afraid of Hatamoto
Guns should be afraid of everyone EXCept Guns and Monks


there can be more
Cavalry Archers could be afraid of Yari Cavalry

comments, opinions, ideas please

[CBR]

We removed all the "afraid of" in the unitstats as it not only effects morale but also combat stats: +4 defense and +2 attack


CBR

[barocca]

We removed all the "afraid of" in the unitstats as it not only effects morale but also combat stats: +4 defense and +2 attack

?
Hatamoto vs Ashi
Ashi afraid of Hatamoto
Hatamoto gets a +4 attack and a +2 defence vs the Ashi??

[R'as al Ghul]

As it is now we have two sets of stats.
One SamWars set for MP and one for SP Campaign modus.
So the only question can be if it is to be implemented into SP
because as I understand it the MP stats have already been tested
to some extend.
We don't want to change the SamWars stats at all.

[CBR]

When Yuuki and I first started on the MP stats we had some very weird things like guns defeating YS in melee and even ND IIRC. After lots of tests and tweaking we were ready to give up if it hadnt been for Krypta who spotted the "afraid of" being enabled in the unit stats.

It gives a huge bonus to a unit and yes that +4 attack/+2 defense is a hardcoded part of the "afraid of" bonus. I think pushback is also increased as that bonus doesnt feel like the only thing. We gave guns a large reduction in stats and they still didnt feel right.

That +6 combat point increase is IMO such a large bonus that you definitely have to careful about what units should get that "afraid of" bonus and I would say its better not to think about it at all.


CBR

[R'as al Ghul]

That +6 combat point increase is IMO such a large bonus that you definitely have to careful about what units should get that "afraid of" bonus and I would say its better not to think about it at all.

I agree. I already had the feeling that part of the reason
that the AI loves to produce Hatamoto is connected to the "afraid of" bonus.
Even after increasing cost and requirements.
In vanilla M:TW/VI its also used very rarely iirc.

R'as

[CBR]

Yes its only used for Camels against cavalry.


CBR

[barocca]

darn it

i was really hoping the "afraid of" bonus would add some good flavouring,

it would have enabled all sorts of intricate tweaks to the R/P/S

6 points is way too heavy for general use (which is what i wanted to use the feature for)


but i have a few "neat" units in mind that i think that feature would be good for, in order to make the unit effective against one unit type and lousy against another,

like an archer unit type (new unit type up my sleeve) that would be not afraid of infantry but petrified of cavalry, allowing even the lightest cavalry to sweep them aside (literally), while the unit still remains a threat to infantry as long as cavalry can be kept away from them

i also have a new infantry unit type that i would want to be scared of sword/naginata armed units, but not afraid of spears


"afraid of" should have been an adjustable bonus, with fields in the unit_prod file for morale, attack and defence.

oh well,

while i wont tweak with any current units,
some of the new types i have i want to give them MAJOR R/P/S counter type...

B.

[Puzz3D]

We already have the unit balance worked out without using the "afraid of" feature. Six combat points is a lot and basically creates an anti-unit. Hatamoto, ninja and especially kensai are tricky to balance due to their small size. Right now shooting at these units is probably the best way to counter them, but you could use the afraid of feature to make them vulnerable to specific melee units.

barocca said, "like an archer unit type (new unit type up my sleeve) that would be not afraid of infantry but petrified of cavalry, allowing even the lightest cavalry to sweep them aside (literally), while the unit still remains a threat to infantry as long as cavalry can be kept away from them."

We already implemented that in the MP stat by giving SA a -2 anti-cav bonus. We did not apply this -2 to the SP stat. Online battle results indicated it was required for MP where the SA are modelled closer to their honor 1 equivalent rather than to an honor 2 equivalent so that the SA would retain some melee capability against infantry, but fall quickly to cav.

[barocca]

Puzz, which field in the unit-prod file declares wether or not a unit is available in mp?

what i was thinking was combining online mp available with era's

early era would be all typical units as you have them available now

high era would have mongol's added and some Japanese units removed

late era would have all units form all era's -mongols, standards and the special units for the extra clans i want available for certain campaigns


YOU SEE, what i want to do is make Duplicate Units, and set them up so MP uses a set of dedicated MP units and not the SP ones.
(does that make sense?)
Era's would allow me to further define what units will be facing which.
(so the Mongol Horde would not be facing Muskets or Monks except in the late era)


yes, the anti-cav bonus is good

but i am going to be having more units than currently exist,
((but i dont want to radically alter the MP side))
some of the new units i want to be especially bad against cav, and i want the cav to be especially deadly against them without chucking in a huge ani-cav bonus,
i Want them to lose the morale points and break quickly.

i am hoping to get away without stat swapping for them,



i want multiple campaigns - as close to the original shogun ones as i can, plus expanded campaigns - like the IronMan - and other "what if" scenarios,
but i dont want to radically alter the MP side,
thus providing MP units in "era" groups will allow us to have the best of all worlds

[R'as al Ghul]

Puzz, which field in the unit-prod file declares wether or not a unit is available in mp?

barocca,

the last SamWars file Puzz3d provided seperates the MP units from the ones
used in SP campaign by setting colum 50 to either "NO Faction" for MP or
"All Factions" for SP.
Furthermore the column 20 can be used to set the "Aplicable periods".
Using the two columns you could have a unit only avaiable for MP Early
or SP Late or whatever. There're a lot of combos possible.
I haven't tested any but am confident that it'll work.



R'as

[SwordsMaster]

I would suggest lowering the stats of spear units and making cavalry "afraid of" spears, that would give the spears some bonus against cavalry but make them weaker in melee.

[barocca]

thanks R'as,
i think you hae explained that to me before,
(and being sleep deprived with a new baby, well, you'll likely have to explain it to me again before we are through)

what i am thinking is we have duplicate units
one for SP and one for MP

for example
Ashigaru
and
MP_Ashigaru

by setting the unit name in changes to recognise MP_Ashigaru as Ashigaru the online game will be nice and clean.

we can then have different stats/settings for the SP and MP version.


by using the no-faction, all-faction, specific faction switches and the era switches
the MP game wont be cluttered by "fantasy"/"additional" units unless you choose the era containing them

keep everyone happy by doing our best to give everyone the game they want, SP and MP players

Cheers,
B.

[cegorach]

In my opinion 'the fear factor' works quite well if used properly.

Anyway, here is an idea.

If you are going to place some battlefield ninjas looking like ordinary ashigaru/samurai units and with the same name as these ( very good idea I believe) it is advisible to use the fear to enhance their battlefield performance.

Why ?

Because when the outfits and the name of the unit can deceive someone he can keep the mouse for more time learning that this weird ashigaru have excellent attack - or something similar - in general they aren't the ordinary ashigaru, somehow. So it is better to conceal their combat power more by lowering their stats and adding only the fear effect for the unit.


Fortunatelly MTW allows making certain units fear certain enemies only ( not like in the RTW infantry/cavalry/etc in general) which is a blessing, although it should be used well.

Regards Cegorach

[Puzz3D]

what i am thinking is we have duplicate units
one for SP and one for MP

for example
Ashigaru
and
MP_Ashigaru

by setting the unit name in changes to recognise MP_Ashigaru as Ashigaru the online game will be nice and clean.

we can then have different stats/settings for the SP and MP version.

barocca,

You don't seem to understand. Samurai Wars is already set up like that. MP has it's own set of units, and there is no need for changing the names. Both the SP and MP stat duplicate as closely as possible the gameplay of original STW as you requested. The hatamoto, kensai, ninja, xbows and naginata cavalry were integrated into the original STW SP unit set after that set was balanced. We didn't use kensai or xbows in the MP stat. I would be in favor of introducing Mongols to MP as a new era because they would downgrade the balance that exists in Samurai Wars Sengoku Era.

[barocca]

i am wondering if the identical name replication is causing the reported dead bodies errors?

(plus i get confused with the duplicate names too)

[R'as al Ghul]

barocca,

for further clarification the structure of the unit_prod in Gnome:

Lines in 
Gnome Editor    Content
1-165	     Medieval units
167-170      STW Agents+Ship
171-181      Medieval Agents
182-195	     MP units (No Faction)
196-212	     SP units (All Factions)
213-214      mounts

[Puzz3D]

i am wondering if the identical name replication is causing the reported dead bodies errors?

The missing corpses are in the SP set which comes after the MP set. I'll investigate this and see if a name change fixes it.