Dutch say no to European constitution

[doc_bean]

63 % of them at least, more then France

[Lazul]

no big suprise.

[kiwitt]

I heard that the recent 10 country expansion was a factor in this, bercause they didn't get a vote in this, nor joining the Euro and probably a number of other reforms and changes. When the people finally got the vote on EU direction, they voted against it.

[Proletariat]

They did what?!

[PanzerJaeger]

Congratulations Dutch memebers - another job well done. Power to the people.

[A.Saturnus]

Congratulations Dutch memebers - another job well done. Power to the people.

Just to which people, that is the question...

[Duke Malcolm]

Whoopie! The contchy will soon be dead and buried. And if the constitution fails, the EU shall follow...

Power to the Dutch people, of course...

[doc_bean]

The EU won't fall, but I'm pretty glad they voted it down, this means the EU can't ignore the 'no' vote from France as easily, and they'll have to seriously rethink what they are doing.

[kiwitt]

... and they'll have to seriously rethink what they are doing.

They pass a "law" in the EU Parliment, requiring only National MPs to vote to pass the bill in the local country instituting the constitution, so the people can be bypassed.

[Proletariat]

This continent seems to make some lousy Federalists.

[Don Corleone]

Apparently, their leaders aren't going to let that slow them down. Question though, if a National Assembly or 2 vote it down, will the 'EU at any cost' change the rules again, so that only pro-EU voters can vote on it?

As I've said, in principal I think the EU is a great idea. But with Constitutions, the devil is in the details. I don't think you're going to get any kind of lasting support for federalization if you continue to strip people's rights away and disenfranchise them as voters. It plays to the fears of the people and confirms the worst doom & gloom predictions made by the naysayers.

Take the time to address the concerns of the French & the Dutch, fix the Constitution so people can understand it, and then move forward. Shoving it down people's throats will leave a really bad taste.

[LittleGrizzly]

will the 'EU at any cost' change the rules again, so that only pro-EU voters can vote on it?

you mean only in countrys where it would pass a referendum, or only allowing voters which would vote yes ?

if 2nd how ?

[Kaiser of Arabia]

w00tage

[Byzantine Prince]

if 2nd how ?

I think the EU can push for a re-vote. They have done that before with Ireland and it worked.

[LittleGrizzly]

I think the EU can push for a re-vote. They have done that before with Ireland and it worked.

with that quote i meant how would they only get pro-eu'ers voting ?

[Productivity]

Yay for ignorance and scare tactics. Pathetic really.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

I think the EU can push for a re-vote. They have done that before with Ireland and it worked.

with that quote i meant how would they only get pro-eu'ers voting ?

How'd the Nazi's win their 1 legit election? Big scary guys outside of polling places saying "Vote for _____"
No I'm not comparing the EU to the Nazi's, but it's basic scare tactics.

[LittleGrizzly]

How'd the Nazi's win their 1 legit election? Big scary guys outside of polling places saying "Vote for _____"
No I'm not comparing the EU to the Nazi's, but it's basic scare tactics.

well i see that backfiring spectularly on any goverment that tried it.

[Byzantine Prince]

It's that countries government that does that scare tactics, it's the EU itself. If a nation is not up for what they offer they make hard to resist by adding new things to proposal. Sort of an offer you can't refuse situation.

[LittleGrizzly]

It's that countries government that does that scare tactics, it's the EU itself. If a nation is not up for what they offer they make hard to resist by adding new things to proposal. Sort of an offer you can't refuse situation.

bribery, well the problem if your just bribing the no voting nations, the politicians of yes nations won't agree, the people of yes nations would get annoyed at it, so you've got to bribe everyone equally, which would involve raising taxes to pay for that.

[Al Khalifah]

A major factor in the Dutch no vote was also the fact that they are a net contributor to the European Union, depsite the fact that they have little political voice within it now.
The expansion has left the dutch with (I believe) 31 MEPs and there is a strong belief that with so many new member states, that the Netherlands is a big loser in terms of the population to MEPs gap and especially the economy size to MEPs gap. They feel that the voice of such a small nation no longer matters in such a large union and so they are perhaps not getting good value for money.

[Xiahou]

will the 'EU at any cost' change the rules again, so that only pro-EU voters can vote on it?

you mean only in countrys where it would pass a referendum, or only allowing voters which would vote yes ?

if 2nd how ?

Someone correct me, but isnt there already a provision that if even just 20 members approve it, they can still force it on the remainder? I seem to remember reading something about that.

[doc_bean]

I doubt it, almost everything needs to be decided by unanimity in the EU. Especially something like this. I also thing a EU constitution would require amending the constitution of certain individual nations, which some can't do without holding a (binding) referendum.


Besides, if the net contributors decide they don't want something, I don't think the rest can do much about it.

[InsaneApache]

Someone correct me, but isnt there already a provision that if even just 20 members approve it, they can still force it on the remainder? I seem to remember reading something about that.

Yes this is true....it is in the constitution. So you may have the scenario of countries voting not to adopt the const. but then having to because 20 of the others did. Personally I think it wont happen....after all one of the countries is France and we all know how upset they can get.

It's a dead duck. With the UK still to vote, with a very good probability that this could be OUR chance to screw Bliar properly. IMHO the no in the UK would be higher than the Dutch..possibly in the mid to high 70%...

[English assassin]

A major factor in the Dutch no vote was also the fact that they are a net contributor to the European Union, depsite the fact that they have little political voice within it now.
The expansion has left the dutch with (I believe) 31 MEPs and there is a strong belief that with so many new member states, that the Netherlands is a big loser in terms of the population to MEPs gap and especially the economy size to MEPs gap. They feel that the voice of such a small nation no longer matters in such a large union and so they are perhaps not getting good value for money.

If that was correct then we do have a problem. The french appear to have voted no in part because they don't like a fundamental aspect even of a common market, never mind a political union, namely free movement of goods and services and the right of establishment (viz the Polish plumber). Thats not easy to fix. If the Dutch really have voted no because they are small, well, that seems like another rather intractable problem. (Maybe they could cobble together a small nations club? Seriously.)

I suspect some of this may be personalities though. The guiding lights of the EU certainly do seem to have a "Stuff the people, we have a vision" style of operating and they don't even seem to bother hiding it any more. The cheif factotum of the constitution, d'Estaing, seems from what little I understand of his french political career to be wholly unfit for any public life (taking diamonds from Bokassa wtf?), our appointee to the Commission, Mandleson, has managed the almost unprecedented feat of being forced to resign from the British cabinet not once but twice, and so on. And no one even seems to CARE about the level of fraud let alone be doing anything to stop it.

If Europe was not run by this bunch of crooks and charletans, but by competent politicians who listened to the people, it would be a very different story IMHO.

[doc_bean]

Yes this is true....it is in the constitution.

A law can't be applied until it is accepted, and for ti to get accepted it needs to be ratified everywhere

Or you sure this rule refered to the constitution itself ?

[doc_bean]

If Europe was not run by this bunch of crooks and charletans, but by competent politicians who listened to the people, it would be a very different story IMHO.

A big problem is that other countries can't really refuse a countries candidate, so a lot of countries seem to just send the people they want to get rid of

[Al Khalifah]

Its just another sad example of modern democracy that its the repeating case of "well we've been elected now so forget what you think until the next general election." These 'visionaries' are happy just to stream roller over popular opinion by using the same amount of fear-tactics and scaremongering that the nay-sayers offer. Many of the aspects of the constitution seemed to me to be trying to give an even bigger engine to this steamroller process by reducing the rights of 'rogue' nations to resist the will of the collective. At least in national government you can remove the government if you don't like them after 4 or 5 years. With the proposed EU system you cannot do this.

[bmolsson]

This shows the immaturity among the European voters. Only in banana republics you vote with your stomache......

[Voigtkampf]

This shows the immaturity among the European voters. Only in banana republics you vote with your stomache......

Wrong, m8, all voters all over the world vote with their stomach/wallet. And west-Europeans wallets (if not stomachs) have been very much emptied since the EU and Euro. I heard a French woman saying on TV “before Euro, I had money, now my pockets are constantly empty”. In Germany, the situation is virtually the same, they have even nicknamed the Euro in Teuro (teuer=expensive, sounds very similar to pronunciation of Euro), and all of my relatives and friends living there have began complaining drastically about how expensive everything became in last few years while wages cannot keep up with it.

Basically, when you have the two strongest countries in EU where the vast majority of population will say that their life’s quality has diminished significantly since introduction of Euro and that they have in no visible way profited from the EU, then you know that there is something rotten in the state of Denmark. EU, that is.

Btw, I find it peculiar how the same people here disrespect the decision of the majority in this case whilst preaching how it must be respected when they talk about some decisions they favor personally. Mine, hypocrisy reigns supreme ones again, I guess.