Fall of Constantinople

[edyzmedieval]

I don't like one thing at Istanbul: the lack of greatness as it once was when it was Constantinople....

I've seen Istanbul...great city....

And another thing.... Hagia Sophia was turned into a mosque :((((((((((((

[King Henry V]

And it lost much of its decorational beauty like the mosiacs.
I'd say that the recent atrocities in the Balkans had quite a bit to do with Ottoman expansionism.

[Byzantine Prince]

The attrocities of the Balkans were a result of the ultranationalist sentiment that was instilled in those peoples.

[King Henry V]

Yes, but if the forced conversion of much of the Albanian population and the subsequent immigration of Serbs into the Austrian Empire had not happened, I doubt the massacres would have occured.

[edyzmedieval]

Yeah...You're right

But about the Hagia Sophia, I'm hoping that one day it will become a orthodox cathedral again....
The mosaics are now being restored :)

[The Wizard]

Bullocks. Musings and idle wishings. You cannot attribute the racial cleansing in the Balkan Wars to so indirect a cause.

By far most of the damage done to Constantinople was done by the Fourth Crusade and the great fire of 1204. Almost all of the Hippodrome was destroyed, as well as many, many other buildings. Geoffrey de Villehourdain (sp?), who chronicled the Fourth Crusade, stated that 'as many houses were burned as there are houses in the three greatest cities of France'.

Then there was the ignorance and naïveté with which the last Byzantine emperors handled their situation. They insisted on keeping up the myth of a powerful Byzantium by spending huge amounts of money on the fake splendor of their court, while around them their currency was crashing and burning and their army and navy were being ignored, most of all in the reign of Andronicus II. And while all that was happening, the Genoese and the Venetians fought upon the dying body of Byzantium over trade supremacy. With no trade, and no efficient agriculture supporting surpluses for trade, Constantinople emptied out until in 1453 there were only ten to twenty thousand people living there.

The pillaging which was usual after Turks captured a city started immediately after the walls were breached, which was early in the afternoon. Mehmed put a stop to it after the ending of the first day, while Turkish soldiers were usually promised three days. Compare this to the senseless destruction, lasting over three days, in 1204. No, the Turks brought a renewed vigor into a dying city.

And, oh well, Hagia Sophia is a mosque. Constantinople fell five hundred and fity years ago. Get over it. The only thing I don't like is that the qa'aba (sp?), which gives the direction in which Mecca is, is out of place instead of being in the center of the upper wall. It's not very aesthetically pleasing, if you ask me. The Blue Mosque is more beautiful, if you ask me.



~Wiz

[Magister Pediyum]

the fall of Carigrad is the most important event in medieval history in eruropa for mine nation it marked 500 of darkness so it is a bit unpleasant to hear from The Wizard his comments about years pas t

[IliaDN]

One of the most important roles Constantinople played in history was that he kept antic culture up to medival times , too bad it was not mentioned here.

[Afsin]

And another thing.... Hagia Sophia was turned into a mosque :((((((((((((

The Hagia Sophia is actually a museum now. After the Turks recaptured Istanbul from the Greeks after the WWI Mustafa Kemal Ataturk got a message from the Pope to turn the Haghia Sophia back into a Church and not a Mosque, he replied with: "If I turn it into a Church I will have the Muslim world against me, I I turn it into a Mosque I shall have the Christian world against me. Therefore I have decided to turn it into a museum where all people will be welcome despite their religion." Personally I think that was a VERY wise choice.

[LeftEyeNine]

Conversion of cathedrals to mosques is common in Ottoman culture. A very little one in Bodrum Castle was even turned into a mosque.

History is history. Remembering the events and adding up emotions into it is what we are still giving the struggle of today. It grows nothing but anger, and it never did.

Istanbul is climbing back to the point where it belongs to. The city of festivals and cultural actions. It was always a big city. And it will just be bigger in every terms, do not doubt it.

[Magister Pediyum]

Your ancestors destroyed our world nothig will be as it was never will Constantinople bee Miklagradd as Vikings called it

[The Wizard]

the fall of Carigrad is the most important event in medieval history in eruropa for mine nation it marked 500 of darkness so it is a bit unpleasant to hear from The Wizard his comments about years pas t

Do remember that the Turkish advance was so rapid because they were hailed as liberators by the peasants. In effect, they reinstated the ancient thematic system of the Byzantines, but then without military obligations, leaving the giving of children as slaves to be made part of the yeni çerii out. What more can a peasant wish for? No longer part of the land, but the land is once again his, and he no longer has to oblige to cruel lordly rights.

And sporadic forced conversions to Islam aside, what did the Ottomans actually mean to Serbia? Your culture and religion are intact, are they not? You are not speaking Turkish, are you? It's a world away from the Romans, who turned everybody into speakers of Latin. No, the Ottomans were not darkness, if you ignore the fact that they took away Serbian independence. But, if lack of independence defines so-called 'darkness' for you, then, indeed, it meant five hundred years of darkness.

And do remember that most of Serbia and Bulgaria had been paying homage to the Sultan since the second half of the 14th century. Your great hero, Marko Kralyevich, was a loyal vassal, at least on the surface, if memory serves.



~Wiz

[LeftEyeNine]

Your ancestors destroyed our world nothig will be as it was never will Constantinople bee Miklagradd as Vikings called it

This is an offense. I reported it.

[Magister Pediyum]

our culture intact do you now what is for a nation to bee impaled on a pike like a pig we left medieval ages in 1838
In the west they where bulding steam machines wile we had land base service read Janicharas memories by Constantine Mihalovich and the you talk about intact culture

[The Wizard]

That may well be, but the fact that in Serbia there were no steam engines yet does not define your culture. I find it quite amazing that Serbian culture was robust and integral enough to remain intact for five hundred years.

But do remember that in Eastern Europe such technology, as well as the Industrial Revolution as a whole, did not arrive until much later. Russia, a 'free' nation, was an agricultural society up until Stalin's time, so much so that Lenin created 'professional revolutionaries' because there weren't enough laborers to join the revolution as described in Marx's theory. Besides, here in the Netherlands we did not industrialize until the nineties of the 19th century.

Still, you are right if you suppose that that was the fault of the Ottomans, in the case of Serbia. But the amount of industrialization still does not define culture.



~Wiz

[Afsin]

There was actually a pretty good reason for the Ottomans becoming 'backwards' when it came to modernization. The printing press was first used in the Ottoman Empire 300 years after its invention, you want to know why? The Sultans forbade it because they believed it would cost too many jobs, which would cause the populace to suffer. I believe this was also the case with the Industrial Revolution.

[LeftEyeNine]

The jobs were those masters of handwriting called "katip"s. Neverthless, he industrialization of Ottomans was demolished by so many other reasons as well. The discovery of New World which led to loss of importance of trade routes that go through Ottoman reign, the militaristic defeats, the decay in the management levels all added up to Ottomans' fall back in industrial terms. And you know that you can not maintain your political power if you lose your economic strength.

Thus it is not rational to accuse Ottomans for Serbians getting overlapped in Industrial Revolution. Because Ottomans themselves were set back.

[Basiliscus]

To be honest, almost every european can associate something with Constantinople. Almost everyone loves the romanticism and the idea that the Byzantine Empire lay on the fringes of modern Europe. Losing it to the Turks was a major blow for ALL European's at that time, the Turk became an even bigger threat to Europe and the catholic world knew something must be done about it.

As the natural heirs to the Roman Empire, they have deep sympathy routed in many people's minds. Although the army had changed much from the Western Roman days, they still had much of the same legacy and political ideas entrenched deep within their society. And like all good Roman's, liked to fight between each other like spoilt children

It is a shame but like all historical tragedies they are now in the past and we can only speculate and discuss what could have been. I would love to visit Istanbul and see what was left behind by such a great Empire.

My favourite Ottoman idea was the janissary - a Christian child raised as a servant to the sultan. A certain irony exists in this idea, but as soldiers these were perhaps my favourite type medieval corps.

[Byzantine Prince]

I don't get you Wizard, why is it you put in so much superflous information? It makes every post you make seam arrogant, as if we don't know any of that stuff, which I'm sure I for one do. Not to mention you make mistakes.

Here's one:

You are not speaking Turkish, are you? It's a world away from the Romans, who turned everybody into speakers of Latin.

Serbians are a Slavic group of the Balkans which means they came in about the 5th century when the Empire was not speaking latin anymore nor could it enforce everyone to speak Greek, which became the official language the Eastern Empire. Albanians were under Rome since 168 BC and yet they retained their langauge for the most part.

With no trade, and no efficient agriculture supporting surpluses for trade, Constantinople emptied out until in 1453 there were only ten to twenty thousand people living there.

The reason they were 10,000 left was because the Turks had been besieging the area for decades on end. The trade was minimal and the food that come in was minimal so the people would leave for fear of starvation. Don't blame this on anyone but Turks.

[Magister Pediyum]

The Romaioi didn't forced us to bee greeks they gave us written word culture lords word.
They gave us chance to bee part of the tradition don't give me wrong i don't
say that i am always right but i am senior in medieval studies and as history is based on sources they speak that Orthodox people of europe where at least on same bases with the west and then the turks came if you don't belive me read Pseudo-Bertrand Burgundian knight who travelled thru Balkans from 1436-1440 and wrought of the desert he saw

[caesar44]

when the turks took const' in 1453 and even before , europe lost its trade paths to the east , so , the western europeans had to find another path to india and the rest is history

[Afsin]

Yep, that's why all those explorations started and how America was colonised. So in short if it wasn't for the Turks we wouldn't have the U.S. telling us what is right and what is wrong, wouldn't that be a damn shame?

[The Wizard]

Serbians are a Slavic group of the Balkans which means they came in about the 5th century when the Empire was not speaking latin anymore nor could it enforce everyone to speak Greek, which became the official language the Eastern Empire. Albanians were under Rome since 168 BC and yet they retained their langauge for the most part.

It was a comparison between the Ottoman and Roman empires. Whatever people inhabited the territory of what is now Serbia spoke Latin by the 2nd century AD. Mistakes? I think not.

The reason they were 10,000 left was because the Turks had been besieging the area for decades on end. The trade was minimal and the food that come in was minimal so the people would leave for fear of starvation. Don't blame this on anyone but Turks.

I strongly object. It was one of the reasons, but only one. People indeed left for Mystras because there they could live out a nice and calm life instead of being in fear of sieges.

But modern historians estimate the population of Constantinople at the turn of the 14th century (i.e. 1401) at fifty thousand at the very most. That's an optimistic estimate, mind you. A French chronicler who travelled alongside marshal Boucicault of France, who went to help Manuel II in the very late 14th century, noted that people lived in clusters of huts in the valley of the Lycus, giving the impression of a perimetered region in stead of a city.

But sieges are only one of the reasons. The pronoai system, which had at first been a system of land grants to favorite courtlings and family under Alexius Comnenus, had gotten totally out of hand and effectively turned Byzantium into a feudal society. The inefficiency that came with it led to a lack of surpluses, which led to a lack of tradeable goods. Then there were the Genoese and Venetians who fought out entire wars in Byzantine waters (three battles outside the Golden Horn within five years). And the Byzantines couldn't build any navy or trade fleets to stop them, because the tax collectors they sent to the great land owners just got paid off!

So: no livelihood, no-one in your city. Besides, the city had already been heavily depopulated in the Fourth Crusade and its aftermath. The sieges carried out by the Sultans were only one factor amongst many.

And if you feel that I am being arrogant towards you because I give a whole lot of facts to support my arguments, then I am sorry. I guess in the future I will try to support my claims without solid evidence.

The Romaioi didn't forced us to bee greeks they gave us written word culture lords word.

So, let me get this straight. If the conqueror takes away your culture, that is good? Remember that the Cyrillic alphabet was developed not under the Byzantines, but in the literary schools of Bulgaria. No conqueror involved. And the Turks did not do what the Romans did, for there are no languages in the Balkans today which are Altaic or based on Turkish. Unlike the Romance languages in Western and Southern Europe.



~Wiz

[edyzmedieval]

How come you're not a famous historian???? :-O

You know extremely well history!!!!

[Magister Pediyum]

First thing first it wasn't developed in Bulgaria it was developed in Solun Cyril and Metodije where from Solun and they where going on a mission from Romans to Slavs in Moravia.
Second Cyrillic alphabet has emerge from greek alphabet and third they gave as land to settle there was no major battles
force your argumets whit more facts it is the only way to study history but some facts that you have are a somewhat uncorrect but never mind that is the thrill of History we make mistakes we read and we correct them

[Byzantine Prince]

How come you're not a famous historian???? :-O

You know extremely well history!!!!

No he doesn't, he just memorizes those crappy Osprey books and then repeats everything. I can tell because he always includes superflous information he has read.

famous historian - isn't that an oxymoron?

[Magister Pediyum]

To Byzantine Prince:

Long live the land of Romaioi and the Prince who will one day bee crowned in purple who will bee called Prince of Romans or Romaioi may he rule from capital in Golden Horn well and we who are his children will bee with him side by side

[Steppe Merc]

No he doesn't, he just memorizes those crappy Osprey books and then repeats everything. I can tell because he always includes superflous information he has read.

If you are reffering to Wiz, you are incorrect. Wiz is very knowledgable about historical matters, and not nearly as biased as some people in this thread are.

[LeftEyeNine]

Sweet dreams are made of these..

[Magister Pediyum]

About what ....