Fall of Constantinople

[Byzantine Prince]

[QUOTE=The Wizard]So, let me get this straight. If the conqueror takes away your culture, that is good? Remember that the Cyrillic alphabet was developed not under the Byzantines, but in the literary schools of Bulgaria. No conqueror involved

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Cyril and Methodius, Saints, brothers, born in Thessalonica, Greece, known as the “apostles of the Slavs.” In 860 they were part of a mission sent by the Byzantine emperor Michael III, called The Drunkard, to the Khazars, a Tatar people who tolerated all faiths and whose ruler practiced Judaism. In 862-863, preparatory to undertaking a mission to Greater Moravia (now Slovakia and the eastern region of the Czech Republic) in answer to a request from the Moravian ruler to Emperor Michael, Cyril created a Slavonic alphabet. Another mistake by our historian.

And the Turks did not do what the Romans did, for there are no languages in the Balkans today which are Altaic or based on Turkish. Unlike the Romance languages in Western and Southern Europe.

Turkish has a roman alphabet too.
The Romans didn't change the Balkan's languages either. The closest to that is Romanian but that is far from latin as well.

[Steppe Merc]

Khazars were by no means Tatar. They were Turks. The people most commonly reffered to as Tatars were Mongols, especially those in Russia. Khazars were pre Mongol, and not in any way Tatars. They were a Turkish people.

[amazon77]

I've read these 2 pages and what i think is that a thread that began as a historical recall of what happened the day Constantinople fell to the Turks (29th May, 1453) has turned into a somewhat off the topic debate about what would have happened if and why did they do it and all that.

First and formost i have to say that i'm greek. This, because in a somewhat political argument ppl tend to be biassed, due to their nationality/religion/culture.

As far as the "on the topic" story, there is a great book by some french academic (univ. teacher) published in 1914 that has a lot of info about that last stand of the Byzantine world. I can't remember title etc. may be i'll search and post it. Anyway, the Byzantines had come to a point where the fall of the city was inevitable, turkish lands surrounded them and no one would really help. The Genoese and Venetians were short-sighted as they believed they would be better off with the turks in command, while that proved to be their downfall. The fall of Constantinople marked the end of the Medieval ages and the start of the "New ideas era" or whatever it is called in europe, as all these extremely knowledgable ppl left the city for italy mainly and from there their ideas spread to the rest of the continent.

As far as the rest of the topic:

Istanbull indeed derives from " εις την πόλιν " which is greek and means " in the city ". The name changed to that during the "turkalization" of turkey with other names changing, like that of Smyrna which became "Ismir".

The slavic alphabet was given to these ppl by Cyril and Methodios, two monks after orders of the Byz Emperor of the time (was it Basilios Boulgaroktonos?). It didn't "happen" in boulgarian schools, were did you find that? After their death, these two monks were canonized (became saints) by the church. Thats why the today slavic alphabet used by former Yugoslavia, Boulgaria, Romania, Russia etc. is so similar to the greek alphabet.

Some national hero is a loyal vassal to his nations' enemies for some time? Well, that's not a new one, many if not all were like that: Vlad Dracul of Romania was a vassal of the Sultan (yes it's that guy from where you get the "Count Dracula" name, but the actuall blood drinking thing was a woman, actually a countess in Terpoviche(sp?) of romania in the 1500's), Bruce of Scotland was a vassal of the English king (i think, not too sure) and King Mithridates of Pontus was also a vassal of the Romans, although he ended in their most feared enemy, even more than Hannibal Barca.

Visiting Istanbull or turkey in general? Well, let me think, wasn't it in Istanbull that a bus full of greek tourists was set on fire and most of them (some 30 ppl) were burnt alive about two years ago? Wasn't it in Istanbull that a young woman was killed (in a gruessome way) by her father and brother, cos she lived with the man she loved without being married, some months ago? Ok, i'll visit, but let me take a fire insurance first!

Agia Sofia (Saint Sofia) church changed into a mosque, that's only natural. They could built their mosque, but it was cheaper the other way around. They did built 4 minareds (or what ever they are called) around it tho, prolly to prove they can do sth taller .

To the Serbian poster: (sorry i can't remember your name) although i can understand your frastration about your nation being under the turkish rule for so much time (greece was also) there's nothing we can do about it, our ancestors took care of that. What we can do is strive to cover the lost ground. I think greece has done magor steps in catching up to the rest of the europe (industry-wise) and i hope serbia (and the other nations of former Yogoslavia) has recovered from the wounds of the civil war and is doing well also. Indeed, when one nation is occupied by another, it's usually because the victor is a more civilised one or at least better in some ways than the loosers. Thus, although these who lost their indepedence can actually gain something in the long term (as did the "barbaric" tribes from the romans) and the africans by the english/french etc. i don't see how any of the nations ruled by the turks gained anything. The greeks actually had 3500 years of history at that time (the knossos discs written in grammic A and B originate back to ~2000BC). Constantinople was the most (by far) civilised city in the world at that time. So, i don't see how any of the nations conquered by the turks gained absolutely anything from it, let alone being conquered is bad enough. I mean, if you ask me, "which nation do you NOT want to be conquered by), i'll certainly know the answer.

A last thing, if you feel attacked/flammed or whatever by anything i say here, you can report me. I'd be really happy as i certainly prefer it over to what your great-great grandfather would have done to mine.

[LeftEyeNine]

This topic is going dangerous. The followers of Megalo Idea is flocking one after another.

Visiting Istanbull or turkey in general? Well, let me think, wasn't it in Istanbull that a bus full of greek tourists was set on fire and most of them (some 30 ppl) were burnt alive about two years ago? Wasn't it in Istanbull that a young woman was killed (in a gruessome way) by her father and brother, cos she lived with the man she loved without being married, some months ago? Ok, i'll visit, but let me take a fire insurance first!

OMG ?!! Where am I ?! A bus full of Greeks burnt down !! But we are all sitting in comfort here and noone in Turkey and abroad reacted against that murder ! That's a genocide !

...

I am warning the whole forum community about this member spreading out his nightmares as if they ever happened in Turkey..The next news you are talking about: I did not particularly heard about its accuracy. Please inform me if anyone gets killed over there in Greece, so that I can blame your country of justice? (My god, what a hatred..)

You have an unbelievable manner that I can not see a reason to deal with. "What your grand-grand father did to mine" is a kid's concern.. Then I am rightful to burst out on any Armenians I see because of their grandfather's raping my holy grand-mothers, go out and kill some Greeks because of their invasion in 20's.

May God heal you, I wish..

[Komutan]

I read that didnt the Turks in there seige build castles to stop boats geting through like a dam? So that the west could not provide resourses e.c.t?

The 2 forts, one built in Asian side and the other in the European side, prevented help arriving through the Black Sea. But the Genoese ships came from west(Mediterrenean).

[Komutan]

Visiting Istanbull or turkey in general? Well, let me think, wasn't it in Istanbull that a bus full of greek tourists was set on fire and most of them (some 30 ppl) were burnt alive about two years ago? Wasn't it in Istanbull that a young woman was killed (in a gruessome way) by her father and brother, cos she lived with the man she loved without being married, some months ago? Ok, i'll visit, but let me take a fire insurance first!

The fanatical nationalism of some people never ceases to amaze me. Now someone begins to list crimes happening Turkey. Of course I am sure that no crimes ever happen in Greece.

By the way Lefteyenine, a bus full of greek tourists was indeed burned. But it did not happen 2 years ago. I think it was more than 10 years ago. It was the work of a single psychopath.

As for the civilization issue... Until 17th century Ottomans were more civilized than the western civilizations. After that their civilization degenerated rapidly.

[amazon77]

It's not "Megalo Idea" but "Megali Idea". It means the Big Idea, which was an idiotic and militaristic idea the greek goverments of the 1920's had. It was about bringing back to life the former Byz Empire (sort of). Now, i don't exactly see how i am backing that one up! Anyway, there's no such thing in modern day greece.

If you're gonna quote, then at least do quote. I didn't say "did" but "would have done". It's a whole different, as i meant you should counter the (serbian guy i think it was) arguements with your own. "The report to the moderator" thing is kiddish imho. Anyway, why are you frustrated by it? I'm only saying i see you are advancing into a better way of solving debates .

What's with the armenian thing? Didn't quite understand that one.
Oh, and the greeks didn't invade turkey in the 20's, but a portion was given to them by their allies as they were in the winning side of ww1.

[LeftEyeNine]

They did invade indeed.. And they were fleeing away burning down what's left behind because their "daddies" had lost confidence with them, cutting out the support to Greeks.. Italians were invaders as well but they did leave the country in a peaceful manner.

So you are involved in a forum of which system is structurized by "kiddish" ideas. I just reported. That's an act of reaction. I prefer more democratic ways to dismiss fanatic actions rather than acting like you.

Armenians ? Well, please keep away your fanatic thoughts on that topic.. Nevermind that example.. Count it un-said..

[amazon77]

They were given a portion, as did italians and if i am correct french and english were also given sectors of control. Indeed a war broke out and the greeks lost that as they had overextended their lines (they reached the Sangarian river when the front collapsed?) in the Eski-Shehir battle or the Afion-Kara-Hissar? Yes their "daddies" did cut out supplies as they didn't want a new greek empire to take over the turkish one. Burning down the land is a strategic theme of an army in retreat as it wants to slow down the enemy. The russians did it to their country during the early phase of WW2 when they were on the retreat, it's called "the tactic of the burnt land". The goal is obvious, troops need food supplies, horses also.

You usually report some1 for spamming or flamming, aka: " u'r just a gay mod'a foker".
If some1 is of different opinion to you, it's a "custom" to reply with an arguement.
Btw, i did see your armenian post, now i understand why you mentioned them. They still exist?
Uhm, why i am being fanatical and a nationalist? What points in my 1st post (or laters) do you feel promote fanatism?
Why do you have to warn the members on these forums? You think they can't judge for themselves and form their own opinion?

I hardly made a list of crimes in turkey. Yes crimes happen in greece all the time. The other day a guy robbed a bank, can you imagine that?

But i guess i'm the fanatic thing+nationalist thing+megali idea thing and lot's of others and most importantly i don't quite think turkey is such an angel-like country (for no country is) and you should report me about that.

[Komutan]

Uhm, why i am being fanatical and a nationalist? What points in my 1st post (or laters) do you feel promote fanatism?
Why do you have to warn the members on these forums? You think they can't judge for themselves and form their own opinion?

I hardly made a list of crimes in turkey. Yes crimes happen in greece all the time. The other day a guy robbed a bank, can you imagine that?

But i guess i'm the fanatic thing+nationalist thing+megali idea thing and lot's of others and most importantly i don't quite think turkey is such an angel-like country (for no country is) and you should report me about that.

First of all, I think you may be confusing posters here. I and Lefteyenine are 2 different persons.

I called you a fanatical nationalist, because honestly I can't see any point other than that for you talking about 2 crimes in Turkey. You showed this reaction, just because someone said "...dont hesitate visiting Istanbul".

[Elias71]

Am I the only one who sees the irony here? LeftEyeNine is accusing others of being nationalists and the like, saying that any Greek who has a different opinion than him is a follower of the "Megali Idea" (which I see as a classic case of the "lets flame everyone who disagrees with me" mentality), meanwhile he is the one who so far has refused to accept the Armenian Genocide (for the love of god, it doesn't even make you a bad person because the world wasn't as civilized at the time, nobody is going to judge you as an individual for it) and seems to want to convince us at every chance he gets that the Ottomans/Turks are the most civilized, loving people on earth...

Btw, LeftEyeNine... you said that you "prefer more democratic ways to dismiss fanatic actions rather than acting like you." If you ask me, you have been acting in the same manner ever since you started your Armenian Genocide post. Nobody reported you though, even though you refused to listen to anything that was a proof against your cause by claiming either incriminating letter was a fake, or that the Turks were somehow being murdered by the hundreds of thousands by an occupied people...





Wooops. I guess I'm about to get reported for speaking my mind too. ;)

[Gregoshi]

Keep looking deep into your past and I'm sure you will find a reason to hate just about every ethnic or racial group. Surely hate isn't the path to a better world in the future. Yet it is apparent that some still cling to it. The sins of the father get inherited by the sons. That archaic notion shouldn't have a place in today's "civilized" world.

Words like "your" and "our" do not belong in discussions like those that should be taking place here in the Monastery. They personalize a discussion that should be about an issue, not an individual or group. As I always say, address the issue, not the person!

I'm closing this topic as it has turned from a remembrance of sorts to a series of accusations and insults both on and off topic. There is a lot here to review. Those exhibiting unacceptable behaviour in this thread should expect to receive appropriate disciplinary sanctions in the very near future.