history...important?

[VAE VICTUS]

ok why do you think history is important,or has thought to have been important?and if your crazy tell us why you think history is unimportant.

god made whiskey so the irishmen wouldnt conquer the world!

[Byzantine Prince]

History is NOT important, no... wait... it is. No... wait... it's all subjective.

[sharrukin]

History is important because it tells who we were and who we are going to be. We are as individuals not self made but are the product of many others stretching back in time and if we do not understand them we have no chance of understanding ourselves. We must understand the evil that men are capable of as well as the good that they can aspire to. Besides its fun as hell.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

History helps us avoid the mistakes of the past and allows us to see what life was like before us. ALso in the case of the Col War it lets us see how close we got to either all dying off or never existing at all.

[Basiliscus]

History is important for many reasons.

Politically, it gives governments a chance to look at the policies and ideas of their predecessors so that they know the changing needs of the masses and can never (in theory!) make the same mistakes as once have been made.

Socially, it gives people a grounding in human evolution and the way society has changed through the ages. It gives people a comparison that human beings are making 'progress' over the people who populated the planet before them.

Economically, it gives people a chance to see re-occuring trends and make money by learning from others mistakes.

As my old football coach once said: "It's not a crime to make a mistake, but it's a crime not to learn from it"

Looking at the past lets us progress into the future

[King Arthur]

i will now play devils advocate for arguments sake
call me crazy,
but i would argue against historys importance ,
because being the same species= homo sapiens
the context of history will not change the way we will behave and act in situations , this is instinctive , the 'lessons of history' will not change what is ultimately everyones evolutionary instinct to survive and breed at whatever cost (altruism doesnt exist as far as i am concerned )
basically the same mistakes will be made , dicatators will rule and kill unstopped , poverty will continue

and war will always exist , this is a natural behavoir of humans = to fight for control of natural resources ,

anyone who disagrees is just an ideolised hippy

i look foward to peoples replies in what could be an interesting discussion

wahoooo i just became a full member after this post, thanks .org

[Uesugi Kenshin]

War is not natural behavior, war is the escalation of a natural tendency towards aggression. Making war is not natural because it goes far beyond plaibn old aggression.

Besides even if history does not teach everyone if some people follow history and learn from other's mistakes there will be some minor improvement that will eventually (hopefully) become more deeply felt and more widely spread.

[King Arthur]

War is not natural behavior, war is the escalation of a natural tendency towards aggression. Making war is not natural because it goes far beyond plaibn old aggression.

Besides even if history does not teach everyone if some people follow history and learn from other's mistakes there will be some minor improvement that will eventually (hopefully) become more deeply felt and more widely spread.

But is aggression ( and therefore war) not the same thing

war has always existed neighbouring tribes fighting for resources since the times of hunting and gathering this is just war on a small scale (just because civil wars in small countrys with few involved it still makes them a war)

so you cant say its political , this is in pre-state times.

war is just a natural behavoir of humans being social creatures goes from family - tribe - state - soveriegn nations
its just a natural escalation of the human social structure as the first humans would have fought to protect their families.we fight to protect our country

war will always exist

and on the second point ironically history itself will tell you that the same mistakes will be made regardless of the 'lessons' of history

anyone else agree?

i feel at times societies over exaggerate the importance of history because it makes us feel like the world is ordered , and we always learn from our mistakes,
when infact we dont

[L`zard]

History is Important:

Because a failing grade detracts from your overall gpa !!

Especially if your a ROTC scholorship student, lol!

Those of you planning on a 'union job' in the 'sanitary engineer' trade, well, don't worry about it, eh? Most likely, the same applies to 'communications' majors. After all, it wont be 'breaking news'...........

PS:

Anyone that doesn't think that war is a natural human instinct; try working night-shift next door to someone that thinks it's just fine to run his music at 'earth-moving' sound-levels just because the sun is presently above him.

PM me, I'll tell you all about the nature of 'war'......(oh yeah! Guess who's city has a 'noise ordinance' that's 24/7...CUB'S WIN, CUB'S WIN, lol! Don't get mad, get even, eh? Read the 'small print', ..........)

[Papewaio]

Humans are not just instincts we are self programmable.

Our genes are a base, they do not define us.

It is like confusing the basement carpark of a 50 story building with the view from the top.

Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.

[King Arthur]

History helps us avoid the mistakes of the past and allows us to see what life was like before us. ALso in the case of the Col War it lets us see how close we got to either all dying off or never existing at all.

What exactly is the significance of what life 'was like before us' .

ofcourse i cannot deny this is interesting as of course i do enjoy playing Rtw

but what exactly is important by finding out what life was like before us if we arent going to learn anything from it ,. Which is in this case mere fact finding

[King Arthur]

Humans are not just instincts we are self programmable.

Our genes are a base, they do not define us.

It is like confusing the basement carpark of a 50 story building with the view from the top.

Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.

True
but the insinct to fight for resources is a base instinct no matter how well socialized you are in your upbringing ,
when faced with a kill or be killed situation the genes and insinct will always take over

it is a drive to survive which goes back from millions of years of evolution and in these situatons has an undeniable influence

therefore war will always occur ,and we wont learn from our mistakes

[L`zard]

@'Uncle Pape' :

"Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top."

You ellegant dude, you! Nice optimism, slow-go for the short term, tho.

Unfortunately, the stupid out-breed the 'smart', by 50-1, eh?

Just label me 'cynic', let's see who comes out right (at least statistically, eh?)

AND NO, I don't wish to debate genotypical statistics, (tho I know you wouldn't go there anyway). Just a 'caveat' for the trolls.

[heya, trolls; this means we're not going to play the 'race' card, 'stand, K?]

[King Arthur]

@'Uncle Pape' :

"Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top."

You ellegant dude, you! Nice optimism, slow-go for the short term, tho.

Unfortunately, the stupid out-breed the 'smart', by 50-1, eh?

Just label me 'cynic', let's see who comes out right (at least statistically, eh?)

AND NO, I don't wish to debate genotypical statistics, (tho I know you wouldn't go there anyway). Just a 'caveat' for the trolls.

[heya, trolls; this means we're not going to play the 'race' card, 'stand, K?]

I agree about the 'optomistic' thing
i feel our genes to determine our behavoiur and we will ultimately not learn from our historical contexts

[Papewaio]

True
but the insinct to fight for resources is a base instinct no matter how well socialized you are in your upbringing ,
when faced with a kill or be killed situation the genes and insinct will always take over

it is a drive to survive which goes back from millions of years of evolution and in these situatons has an undeniable influence

therefore war will always occur ,and we wont learn from our mistakes

Our will to survive is enormous and compounded each time we survive and propagate.

However if given the option of nuclear war or cheaper TV sets which one do we take?

[King Arthur]

Our will to survive is enormous and compounded each time we survive and propagate.

However if given the option of nuclear war or cheaper TV sets which one do we take?

Agreed
Ofcourse nucleur war is the ironic part of war which defines the logic of
war= survival theory
as it would effectively be anti survival

becuase it would effect everyone,
lets hope there are no incidents of nucleur war , i mean it would disprove my theory for crying out loud

anyone else think history is unimportant ?

[Papewaio]

Lack of history would be like amnesia for an entire civilisation.

[Papewaio]

@'Uncle Pape' :

"Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top."

You ellegant dude, you! Nice optimism, slow-go for the short term, tho.

Unfortunately, the stupid out-breed the 'smart', by 50-1, eh?

Just label me 'cynic', let's see who comes out right (at least statistically, eh?)

AND NO, I don't wish to debate genotypical statistics, (tho I know you wouldn't go there anyway). Just a 'caveat' for the trolls.

[heya, trolls; this means we're not going to play the 'race' card, 'stand, K?]

Who rules the stupid?

[King Arthur]

Who rules the stupid?

who rules the stupid?

the stupid = George .W.Bush

and i quote
99% of Americas imports come from abroad''

I believe human beings and fish can co-exist peacefully''

[L`zard]

Who rules the stupid?

'Cynical' say's : "the most recent pedagogue"; YMMV, eh?

After all, 'Rupert' is an aussie, nicht wahr? That would be 'what' chain of 'american' media?

One is forced to consider the 'old' version of 'RollerBall'; ie: the one w/James Cann as 'Jonethon E'. Mondo Philosophical Exacto (lol).

By this I refer to some of the 'boring' parts where ideas/concepts/the philosophy of large corporations are discussed. Read the book (yikes!), Harrison iirc....

@all; What I'm refering to is that 'power' over time becomes concentrated in the hands of a few;

War=the 'oligarchy' cleaning out the attic, eh?

'War is to humans as froth is to yeast'........(guess the author, eh?)

Somewhere in here, we should properly 'define' war, eh?

[Papewaio]

'War is to humans as froth is to yeast'........(guess the author, eh?)

Interesting since the alcohol kills the yeast...

[Gregoshi]

Let's keep politics out of the discussion.


On topic: although you have a interesting point King Arthur and can find many examples of us not learning from history, I think the majority of us, both the intelligent and the stupid, at least try to learn from history. Many fail for a variety of reasons but at least they try. Some of history's lessons have no easy solution or maybe no known solution at all (yet). History lessons in areas like science and engineering are easier to learn from than those involving the complexities of the human mind. But as humans we are constantly striving to better ourselves and just because something is "impossible" doesn't mean we won't stop trying to overcome the impossible. History is the foundation for such efforts and a measuring stick too. So, yes, history is important.

[L`zard]

Interesting since the alcohol kills the yeast...

See the 'cat'?
See the 'cradle'?

(tho I'll ask you to reflect upon 'bread',eh?)

[L`zard]

[QUOTE=Gregoshi]Let's keep politics out of the discussion.]

At least the modern slanderous version, please! (heya greggo!)

IMO philosophy and politics at some point touch, but let's be gentle about the dividing line gents.....

(ouch, sorry for the double, eh? And should not this thread be moved to the nearest bar or something?)

[King Arthur]

Let's keep politics out of the discussion.


On topic: although you have a interesting point King Arthur and can find many examples of us not learning from history, I think the majority of us, both the intelligent and the stupid, at least try to learn from history. Many fail for a variety of reasons but at least they try. Some of history's lessons have no easy solution or maybe no known solution at all (yet). History lessons in areas like science and engineering are easier to learn from than those involving the complexities of the human mind. But as humans we are constantly striving to better ourselves and just because something is "impossible" doesn't mean we won't stop trying to overcome the impossible. History is the foundation for such efforts and a measuring stick too. So, yes, history is important.

agreed Gregoshi ,
. Although i do think politics is undoubtedly linked to history.
Just think of how the propaganda of history is used so often by political parties.

Yes its true that history helps in science, but the difference is these are matters of factual mathmatics but war however is a subjective issue.
in the matter of learining from the mistakes we have made during war,
this is not as straighfoward as the lessons we get from the history of science and engineering ,

[VAE VICTUS]

history is important because it can give a certain validity to an organization.like in orwell's 1984 whoever is in control can manipulate history and fool the masses into believing that it has always been a certain and there is no other,or better way.also we have learned from history.guns are better than swords in most cases.war is a necessity right now.humans are divided strongly for the most into "races",usually defined by color,creed,or some such.also defined by religion,be it christianity,islam,or the lack of.if these barriers were ever destroyed some sort of peace may be contained with an extremely strong central govt. which polices population thouroughly.and with RFid chips people could be tracked,and therefore much easier to find.history shows us that there are and have been other ways of living,and other ways of acting.it goes beyond the wars and generals were there political and economical issues that pressed the war into being?also we can look at wars that should have happened but never did.1870s britain,russia,france.(may have years off).anyway before i bore anyone to tears(may have already succeeded!)ill wind it down.
it looks like he is hitting the ball with his nose.

[Kagemusha]

I would like to aproach history little bit differently.
I dont know if it benefits or not us in the long run,i just find it very curious.
Thats the key in my aspect of history.To me one of the most important features of humans is that they want to know everything about almost anything.In my mind that creates the possibility to develope our selves beyond anything that has happened in history before us.

[Papewaio]

agreed Gregoshi ,
Yes its true that history helps in science, but the difference is these are matters of factual mathmatics but war however is a subjective issue.
in the matter of learining from the mistakes we have made during war,
this is not as straighfoward as the lessons we get from the history of science and engineering ,

History is experience which definitly helps in war.

Interesting that you mention engineering and war. Australias best WWI general was an engineer and it seemed he learned from his experiences to apply them to warfare.

History however is more then just warfare.

[Brutus]

History is important cause if there was no history, I would have to study something else, or, more probable, I'd be living in the gutter right now.

Also, it's just impossible to think history is unimportant. Sure, one can think it's uninteresting, but since there is not a single being, thing, idea or whatever on the planet (or, if we knew about it, in the entire universe) without history, it is always important. Most things are unintelligeble without knowing something about it's history.