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Thread: France, yes or no?

  1. #1
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default France, yes or no?

    Hedge your bets, ladies and gentlemen. Poll stations close at 20.00 hrs European time. I bet the Frogs are going to say no by 55%, even though I would regret it. If anything, Chirac's final tv pledge seems to have strengthened the no-campaign, all the more so because the French have a healthy disregard for their own Presidents and their partisan tv speeches.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

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    Things Change Member JAG's Avatar
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    Default Re: France, yes or no?

    I very much hope for a yes, but it seems people with the same kind of beliefs as me - centre-left - in France, are the ones who are going to make it a no, which is a huge shame. I would have hoped they would have seen the huge benefits for the European people rather than concentrate on the minimal free market areas of the constitution. Will we be able to get the social rights granted in the first part of the treaty if we have to negotiate it again? I doubt it :/

    I think the no will win it by 53-47, it will be closer than the last opinion poll stated, though I hope I am wrong.
    GARCIN: I "dreamt," you say. It was no dream. When I chose the hardest path, I made my choice deliberately. A man is what he wills himself to be.
    INEZ: Prove it. Prove it was no dream. It's what one does, and nothing else, that shows the stuff one's made of.
    GARCIN: I died too soon. I wasn't allowed time to - to do my deeds.
    INEZ: One always dies too soon - or too late. And yet one's whole life is complete at that moment, with a line drawn neatly under it, ready for the summing up. You are - your life, and nothing else.

    Jean Paul Sartre - No Exit 1944

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    Ambiguous Member Byzantine Prince's Avatar
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    Default Re: France, yes or no?

    I wonder is France the only other place that might vote no to the constitution?

    I hope the constitution passes, it will unite Europe and that can only be a good thing for every one in the world.

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    Things Change Member JAG's Avatar
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    Default Re: France, yes or no?

    Holland is almost certain to vote no and if it came to the UK I would think we would be almost certain to vote no, but the point is that a French no would be so disastrous. France... Voting.. No?! Dear oh dear, what is happening.

    In the UK atm I think public opinion is something like 70/30 against the EU, nevermind the constitution.
    GARCIN: I "dreamt," you say. It was no dream. When I chose the hardest path, I made my choice deliberately. A man is what he wills himself to be.
    INEZ: Prove it. Prove it was no dream. It's what one does, and nothing else, that shows the stuff one's made of.
    GARCIN: I died too soon. I wasn't allowed time to - to do my deeds.
    INEZ: One always dies too soon - or too late. And yet one's whole life is complete at that moment, with a line drawn neatly under it, ready for the summing up. You are - your life, and nothing else.

    Jean Paul Sartre - No Exit 1944

  5. #5
    Ambiguous Member Byzantine Prince's Avatar
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    Default Re: France, yes or no?

    I thought everyone was supposed to vote yes in order for the constitution to pass. If Dutch and British are so against it then it was a dead plan to begin with wasn't it?

  6. #6
    For England and St.George Senior Member ShadesWolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: France, yes or no?

    I dont really care what the French or Dutch do, its up to them. They have different situations to us in the UK. I feel that in both nations its more of a 'vote yes' and you get the Turks, Vote No and you dont have 30% of the EU as Muslims.

    If BLiar gives us chance to vote, I will vote NO. And this NO has nothing to do with Turkey enter the EU. I dont want a written constitution, we have never had one and we dont need one now.
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    Things Change Member JAG's Avatar
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    Default Re: France, yes or no?

    I will vote NO. And this NO has nothing to do with Turkey enter the EU. I dont want a written constitution, we have never had one and we dont need one now.
    You see that is where you are wrong, for the 25 member EU to work it NEEDS this constitution. So your basis for voting no would be completely wrong.
    GARCIN: I "dreamt," you say. It was no dream. When I chose the hardest path, I made my choice deliberately. A man is what he wills himself to be.
    INEZ: Prove it. Prove it was no dream. It's what one does, and nothing else, that shows the stuff one's made of.
    GARCIN: I died too soon. I wasn't allowed time to - to do my deeds.
    INEZ: One always dies too soon - or too late. And yet one's whole life is complete at that moment, with a line drawn neatly under it, ready for the summing up. You are - your life, and nothing else.

    Jean Paul Sartre - No Exit 1944

  8. #8
    For England and St.George Senior Member ShadesWolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: France, yes or no?

    You see that is where you are wrong, for the 25 member EU to work it NEEDS this constitution. So your basis for voting no would be completely wrong.
    You miss the point JAG, I am voting NO because I dont want a written constitution. A appreciate that FACt that all 25 need to vote yes. But I dont care what the rest of Europe is doing.

    And I was stating that some of the other Europeans are voting no on the constitution because they feel a threat from in increased Muslim population, which if Turkey joins will be achieved.
    ShadesWolf
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    Im a Wolves fan, get me out of here......


  9. #9
    is not a senior Member Meneldil's Avatar
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    Default Re : France, yes or no?

    Actually, Turkey will likely not be allowed to join in if the yes wins.

    As for your opinion Shadeswolf, I think it's typically british. You don't want to be in EU and you don't care about it. That's why you should vote yes, because it will allow your country to leave EU...

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    Master of the Horse Senior Member Pindar's Avatar
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    Default Re: France, yes or no?

    What do you (this is the plural you) think the effect of a no vote will be?

    "We are lovers of beauty without extravagance and of learning without loss of vigor." -Thucydides

    "The secret of Happiness is Freedom, and the secret of Freedom, Courage." -Thucydides

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    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: France, yes or no?

    The result wont really matter anyway. Because all the politicos will do is stage referendum after referendum until they get the right answer ... viz-a-viz the vote for the Euro in Denmark and Ireland.

    Back OT, the French will vote no by a small % ....which then raises the question?

    If the French reject the constitution, then the Brits may well have another look at it. As anything the French reject has to have some merit for the Brits.
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

    “Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.”

    To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticise.

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    Things Change Member JAG's Avatar
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    Default Re: France, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    What do you (this is the plural you) think the effect of a no vote will be?
    The EU project will have to over come serious attacks by the Eurosceptics about its role / validity and if those of us who are pro EU win that argument, another constitution is going to have to be made. A no vote won't be good for people in the EU.

    You miss the point JAG, I am voting NO because I dont want a written constitution. A appreciate that FACt that all 25 need to vote yes. But I dont care what the rest of Europe is doing.
    No I got your point I was stating how the fact you think we don't need one is complete bollocks, but nevermind.

    Anyway if you and your Tory mates ever want the EU we know the EU is going in the wrong direction, so it is quite comforting to know that our old Europhobes are still there chugging away.
    GARCIN: I "dreamt," you say. It was no dream. When I chose the hardest path, I made my choice deliberately. A man is what he wills himself to be.
    INEZ: Prove it. Prove it was no dream. It's what one does, and nothing else, that shows the stuff one's made of.
    GARCIN: I died too soon. I wasn't allowed time to - to do my deeds.
    INEZ: One always dies too soon - or too late. And yet one's whole life is complete at that moment, with a line drawn neatly under it, ready for the summing up. You are - your life, and nothing else.

    Jean Paul Sartre - No Exit 1944

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    Scandinavian and loving it Member Lazul's Avatar
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    Default Re: France, yes or no?

    There is nothing more I like to see then for the EU to crumble, fall-over, cry and die. (corrupt and stupid as it is)
    I wish Sweden would get to vote (as we should, since we are a Democracy) then a big fat NO would be waved in the faces of those high-up rightwing nutters.
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    is not a senior Member Meneldil's Avatar
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    Default Re : Re: France, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lazul
    There is nothing more I like to see then for the EU to crumble, fall-over, cry and die. (corrupt and stupid as it is)
    I wish Sweden would get to vote (as we should, since we are a Democracy) then a big fat NO would be waved in the faces of those high-up rightwing nutters.

    And doom all european nations to become third world country ? With barely any economical, political power ?
    Sorry, but I don't buy it. Even though EU has many flaws (some being corrected with the Treaty, so not), we seriously need it with the current world developpement.

    What I fear the most with the no is just that : the EU will crumble and disappear.
    Some people seems to think that if something like that ever happened, we would start a new, more democratic, more rational european union, but that's quite unrealistic IMO.

    And the "We are a democracy and we deserved to vote" argument is flawed, as you elected the Parliament that will (or not) accept the treaty. It's not as if a dictatorial power was imposing you this treaty.

    BTW, my opinion for the referendum is either a thin victory of the NO, or a large victory of the YES. People seems to forget it, but about 1/3 of the population still hasn't made in mind on the issue (well, at least that's what poll said), and I think many might vote YES because they'll fear what would happen with a victory of the NO (France losing all political power, being qualified of bad europeans, etc.)


    Will we be able to get the social rights granted in the first part of the treaty if we have to negotiate it again? I doubt it :/

    Very true. The eastern european countries, who didn't have a voice with the current treaty are not really for more social rights.
    Last edited by Meneldil; 05-29-2005 at 10:58.

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    Things Change Member JAG's Avatar
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    Default Re: France, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lazul
    There is nothing more I like to see then for the EU to crumble, fall-over, cry and die. (corrupt and stupid as it is)
    I wish Sweden would get to vote (as we should, since we are a Democracy) then a big fat NO would be waved in the faces of those high-up rightwing nutters.
    That kind of attitude is why progressive lefties in France might make the constitution fail in France. It does however make no sense. The EU is NOT full of right wingers, look at what the socialists achieved when they had power in the EU parliament for **** sake. They brought in more progressive social legislation to countries like mine than any national govt, the social chapter is a beacon of brilliance. Without the EU what will happen then? Sweden will be fine because yo put it bluntly you have a very strong left balance in your country, but others? It is only through the EU that the liberation and rights of ordinary hard working people can be realised. Still now through legislation like the 48 hour working week is this being realised and the centre right have a majority in parliament at the moment! You dismiss your fellow Europeans far too easily if you think it is some sort of right wing conspiracy.
    GARCIN: I "dreamt," you say. It was no dream. When I chose the hardest path, I made my choice deliberately. A man is what he wills himself to be.
    INEZ: Prove it. Prove it was no dream. It's what one does, and nothing else, that shows the stuff one's made of.
    GARCIN: I died too soon. I wasn't allowed time to - to do my deeds.
    INEZ: One always dies too soon - or too late. And yet one's whole life is complete at that moment, with a line drawn neatly under it, ready for the summing up. You are - your life, and nothing else.

    Jean Paul Sartre - No Exit 1944

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    zombologist Senior Member doc_bean's Avatar
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    Default Re: France, yes or no?

    No by 51%

    The effects, the EU will not crumble and fall, simply because the EU is needed for almost all European nations, and it needs to be 'stronger'. We need a strong (unanimous) vote with the WTO, we need to have a common social policy if we want companies to remain here. United we stand, divided we fall, and it's a long way down.

    That said, if the constitution doesn't pass (which is very likely) there will probably be a series of treaties that make sure the organizational aspects of the treaty are implented.

    In a few years (or decades) we might see a new constitution, this time, written for the people and not for lawyers and politicians, shorter and easier to understand.

    Rejection of the constitution clearly shows that the average European doesn't feel connected enough to Europe, the so called 'democratic deficit'. It shows the need for a clearer information campaign about what the EU is, how it is structured and what its authority is. Maybe it will result in more power to the parliament, and, we can dream, an elected executive (the commission).
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    Scandinavian and loving it Member Lazul's Avatar
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    Default Re: France, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by JAG
    That kind of attitude is why progressive lefties in France might make the constitution fail in France. It does however make no sense. The EU is NOT full of right wingers, look at what the socialists achieved when they had power in the EU parliament for **** sake. They brought in more progressive social legislation to countries like mine than any national govt, the social chapter is a beacon of brilliance. Without the EU what will happen then? Sweden will be fine because yo put it bluntly you have a very strong left balance in your country, but others? It is only through the EU that the liberation and rights of ordinary hard working people can be realised. Still now through legislation like the 48 hour working week is this being realised and the centre right have a majority in parliament at the moment! You dismiss your fellow Europeans far too easily if you think it is some sort of right wing conspiracy.

    Well, its like this, Sweden is loosing its democracy to stupidity, we dont get to vote on huge national issues like this EU constitution.
    The feeling here is that politicians 'stupify' the normal citizen in sweden and use arguments as: "The normal man is not smart enough to understand the EU" and so on.
    It feels like the democracy dissapears up there, amongst the politicans, and now they want us to get more intangled with the EU wich even more far above our heads.
    This generation of europeans that has grown up with no threat to their democracy take democracy for granted. Why ells would {people} like neo-nazis and ultra-conservatives start to gain power little everywhere. Even in Sweden in nazis grow in numbers it seams.
    And then to invest in a project that lacks democracy in many ways, that will hardly improve the normal citizens lust for democracy.

    Sure, maybe the EU i a usefull thing, maybe we need it to balance the powers of the US and China and so on. But if the leaders of Europa (wich I have no respect for what so ever) fail to bring democracy to every part of the european society, I shall for ever hate and loath the EU and wish it to crumble and die.
    And I mean democracy even in the economy.

    I know its naiv it wish for theese things, the human being is to stupid to fight for such things, all they want is a fat payment and an SUV... and then {exploit} the slaving worker.

    *wrote this message while angry about many things*
    Last edited by KukriKhan; 05-29-2005 at 14:17. Reason: language
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    Lord of the House Flies Member Al Khalifah's Avatar
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    Default Re: France, yes or no?

    I bet they vote yes.
    Cowardice is to run from the fear;
    Bravery is not to never feel the fear.
    Bravery is to be terrified as hell;
    But to hold the line anyway.

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    Master of the Horse Senior Member Pindar's Avatar
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    Default Re: France, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by doc_bean
    Rejection of the constitution clearly shows that the average European doesn't feel connected enough to Europe, the so called 'democratic deficit'.

    Ive always found this to be very interesting.

    "We are lovers of beauty without extravagance and of learning without loss of vigor." -Thucydides

    "The secret of Happiness is Freedom, and the secret of Freedom, Courage." -Thucydides

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    Humanist Senior Member A.Saturnus's Avatar
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    Default Re: France, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    What do you (this is the plural you) think the effect of a no vote will be?
    A no will slow done the progress of European integration. The EU will not crumble and die because it can't. Most politicians in Europe realize that the EU is a necessity and those who don't are either radicals or British. Actually, it is to expected anyway that in at least a few of the 25 member states the Constitution will be rejected, but a no in France is more important. If France votes yes, the Constitution will be unstoppable in the end, whether others reject it or not. If necessery France and Germany will create a "core Europe" and the others will have to decide whether they are part of the club or stay outside.

  21. #21
    Master of the Horse Senior Member Pindar's Avatar
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    Default Re: France, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by A.Saturnus
    A no will slow done the progress of European integration. The EU will not crumble and die because it can't. Most politicians in Europe realize that the EU is a necessity and those who don't are either radicals or British. Actually, it is to expected anyway that in at least a few of the 25 member states the Constitution will be rejected, but a no in France is more important. If France votes yes, the Constitution will be unstoppable in the end, whether others reject it or not. If necessery France and Germany will create a "core Europe" and the others will have to decide whether they are part of the club or stay outside.
    Do you believe a new constitutional draft will be put forward and if so how long would that process take?

    What was the basic feeling for the Constitution in Germany?

    "We are lovers of beauty without extravagance and of learning without loss of vigor." -Thucydides

    "The secret of Happiness is Freedom, and the secret of Freedom, Courage." -Thucydides

  22. #22
    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: France, yes or no?

    Most politicians in Europe realize that the EU is a necessity and those who don't are either radicals or British.
    I like that....someone has to take the bull by the horns..

    THE reason why we Brits dont enjoy the 'privaligies' handed down from Europe is that we had them anyway...it was a catch up time for you guys....and theres the rub....we Brits are a freedom loving race and if anything the EU is a denier of freedoms thats fits in well with the civil code but alas for Bliar and Co does not fit into the common law that has evolved and has brought freedom to us as a people.

    We did not have to import this model, for it was one of our chosing. We forgot this as a model for living about a 100 years after we had cut our Kings head off....and therefore the AWI.

    I digress.....Britain wont give up over a 1000 years of hard fought freedoms just to make a political point.

    thankyou for listening....
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

    “Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.”

    To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticise.

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  23. #23
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: France, yes or no?

    I think that french are going to vote no.
    Here in Finland we dont even get to vote in this matter and i think its pretty anti-democratic.
    I partly agree what Lazul is saying becouse EU doesnt really give Scandinavian people any true benefits.We give more money to EU than we get and EU makes up laws that have negative effects on our economy.
    The only Scandinavian nation that didnt join the Union, Norway is good example to us all.They didnt join and now they have the best economy and social standards in whole Scandinavia.
    I also think if the constitution fails this time,politics keep on grinding it untill it passes.
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

  24. #24
    zombologist Senior Member doc_bean's Avatar
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    Default Re: France, yes or no?

    I'm not against applying the common law to continental Europe.
    Yes, Iraq is peaceful. Go to sleep now. - Adrian II

  25. #25
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: France, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by doc_bean
    I'm not against applying the common law to continental Europe.
    Im against it.Because i would like to see EU as an Union of independent Nations,not as Federal State,Like USA or former Soviet Union.
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

  26. #26
    is not a senior Member Meneldil's Avatar
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    Default Re : France, yes or no?

    Or like Germany for that matter...

    And no, I don't want to have this crappy common law here.

    The way a lot of people are thinking is just sick.
    Do you all really think that your miserable countries would be worth anything right now without EU ?
    Do you prefer to live in your selfish, closed country, and have all eastern europe nations being almost underdevelopped ?

    I'm proud that the EU helped Spain, Portugal and Greece, France, Germany, and even UK, and I would be really glad if it could help Poland, Hungary, Romania in the same way.

    You just make me laugh. If you don't like EU, vote 'yes', and ask for your governement to leave EU (because if the treaty is accepted, you'll be able to leave EU), and stay in your great, petty but worthless country, and leave 200 millions people live with 100 € a month.

    Insane apache, you're arguing is quite pointless, most of UK trade is made with EU nations, and guess why ? Because you're in EU. If you don't like it that way, that's your problem. You seem to be thinking that UK is still a huge colonial empire, that doesn't care about what other people are doing. Rather silly (personnaly, I'm all for UK leaving EU, if you bother)

    And as I said, the 'that's anti democratic" argument is flawed. You've elected your parliament, and that's called representative democracy. You don't get to vote for everything that happens in your country.

  27. #27
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: France, yes or no?

    Im sorry if you think that about our little "miserable","closed",countries.
    My position in this matter is not that i wouldnt like that my country helps other countries,but to surrender our right to decide whats good for us to couple huge countries in central Europe.
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

  28. #28
    is not a senior Member Meneldil's Avatar
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    Default Re : France, yes or no?

    That's no, 55 to 45%

    Okay, anyone from Quebec able to house an ex-french ?

  29. #29
    Humanist Senior Member A.Saturnus's Avatar
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    Default Re: France, yes or no?

    Meneldil, please calm down. This is not the end of the EU. In fact, there won't be any stepping back. It just means that the further progress will take longer. We know that the EU is the right thing and it will prevail in the end. The dream of an united Europe is 1200 years old, it won't stop now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    Do you believe a new constitutional draft will be put forward and if so how long would that process take?

    What was the basic feeling for the Constitution in Germany?
    There will be a new draft. Maybe even the same draft will be presented again. How long it will take in the end I don't know.

    The feeling in Germany is rather possitive. If there had been a referendum, it would probably have ended with "yes".

  30. #30
    EB Token Radical Member QwertyMIDX's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re : France, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Meneldil
    That's no, 55 to 45%

    Okay, anyone from Quebec able to house an ex-french ?
    Want a couch? Maybe a july sublet? Montreal is a nice city .
    History is for the future not the past. The dead don't read.


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    History does not repeat itself. The historians repeat one another. - Max Beerbohm

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